Repeat the same Guardian unlock 18 times? Really?

[Mengy]

It’s difficult to understand. ...With so many new Guardian weapons and modules up for grabs. Why make everyone repeat what should be a single task/puzzle 18-20 times for a blueprint?

The why is easy to answer: Frontier likes to create content as grind walls. They do it time and time again. Just look at the original Power Play, or the military ranks for each power, the very slow CQC rank progression, the original Engineers (even today's Engineers, Sandro absolutely insisted on keeping the grade grind), the USS scenarios and how unvaried they are, and then look at the Guardian Tech unlocks. It's all been designed with the same focus in mechanics: repetitive tasks with little to no variety. It's just how Frontier codes game mechanics into content.

I have a hunch a couple of Frontier's game mechanic coders came from either a freemium game background or low level MMO development, because they seem to just love those kinds of mechanics a bit too much. Or maybe they are really light on staff and simply do the least amount of effort for new mechanics. What's odd is how the art and sound teams do such incredible and exceptional work, I mean they work their fracking butts off, but then the mechanics teams fall so far short of making anything satisfactory. Time and time, over and over again.

It makes me very worried to see what the Q4 update brings for exploration, because I've waited four years for this and it if ends up as basic as these Guardian grind walls then I'll be terribly broken over it.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

The why is easy to answer: Frontier likes to create content as grind walls. They do it time and time again. Just look at the original Power Play, or the military ranks for each power, the very slow CQC rank progression, the original Engineers (even today's Engineers, Sandro absolutely insisted on keeping the grade grind), the USS scenarios and how unvaried they are, and then look at the Guardian Tech unlocks. It's all been designed with the same focus in mechanics: repetitive tasks with little to no variety. It's just how Frontier codes game mechanics into content.

I have a hunch a couple of Frontier's game mechanic coders came from either a freemium game background or low level MMO development, because they seem to just love those kinds of mechanics a bit too much. Or maybe they are really light on staff and simply do the least amount of effort for new mechanics. What's odd is how the art and sound teams do such incredible and exceptional work, I mean they work their fracking butts off, but then the mechanics teams fall so far short of making anything satisfactory. Time and time, over and over again.

It makes me very worried to see what the Q4 update brings for exploration, because I've waited four years for this and it if ends up as basic as these Guardian grind walls then I'll be terribly broken over it.

I personally wouldn't really blame the coders - they're the 'indians', merely doing what the 'chiefs' tell them to do.

 

[Muetdhiver]

I personally wouldn't really blame the coders - they're the 'indians', merely doing what the 'chiefs' tell them to do.

But it's a team effort... ROFL

This grind crust layered on everything good the game has to offer are all about some higher up deciding to turn the dials to 11 to spread the butter as much as possible.

The facepalm moment was the "We value your time "... on stream. One of the big brass is either clueless, incompetent or sabotaging. Q4 is likely too be the do or die update for a lot of very supportive and patient players.

The worst of all is that the guardian mission is really close to being very good. Too bad someone decided to dump a gallon of grindy goo on top of it.

 

[Blackcompany]

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, at some point in game design, gameplay become about unlocking modules / weapons rather than using them. That totally shifts where people expect the balance to be. Personally, I don't see "the number of times we repeat a puzzle" as a matter of balance.

If it was meant to take a long time, then perhaps it would have been better if the puzzle itself had been more intricate and took longer to complete.

Fdev took a game about flying spaceships, in which you could also customize those ships...and turned it into a game about customizing ships you occasionally hey to fly.

That's the problem, in a nutshell.

The fix: they need a creative lead. Someone with a pedigree, who can turn this jumbled assortment of disparate mechanics into a coherent game.

Also, Today I Learn: Agony Aunt is NOT Obsidian Ant's forum ID. So... apologies for that mixup.

 

[Maka Gucci]

Also, Today I Learn: Agony Aunt is NOT Obsidian Ant's forum ID. So... apologies for that mixup.

Yea, they have very different views on the grind in elite.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Well, it's fair to say I wouldn't do it. Funny thing is, I kinda grind missions in Warframe - then again it's coop MP (when I don't solo) and usually I get something I consider of worth from a mission. And the gameplay is more varied - I can always pick a different frame and tackle it differently. I usually don't stick to only 1 setup.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

But it's a team effort... ROFL

This grind crust layered on everything good the game has to offer are all about some higher up deciding to turn the dials to 11 to spread the butter as much as possible.

The facepalm moment was the "We value your time "... on stream. One of the big brass is either clueless, incompetent or sabotaging. Q4 is likely too be the do or die update for a lot of very supportive and patient players.

The worst of all is that the guardian mission is really close to being very good. Too bad someone decided to dump a gallon of grindy goo on top of it.

Right now, I value my time way more than the game values my time.

That's why I don't play the game.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Right now, I value my time way more than the game values my time.

That's why I don't play the game.

Very reasonable. I do it a bit differently: every time I know there game is going to waste 30min or more of my time for no good reason, I shut it down.

I haven't played the game out of coop play much TBH. Just not worth the time investment. Ksp and the witcher deliver great solo gameplay with no grind and no downtime/immersion timers.

 

[Blackcompany]

Yea, they have very different views on the grind in elite.

You don't say...I'm still choking down all the crow that came with those simultaneous realizations...

 

[Blackcompany]

Well, it's fair to say I wouldn't do it. Funny thing is, I kinda grind missions in Warframe - then again it's coop MP (when I don't solo) and usually I get something I consider of worth from a mission. And the gameplay is more varied - I can always pick a different frame and tackle it differently. I usually don't stick to only 1 setup.

Having played Warframe far more than I like to admit I think the difference is that, at least until recently, the moment to moment game play in Warframe cared about being FUN. (And coop helps, since my girl likes it too, we play together).

On the other hand, Fdev literally doesn't seem to care about whether Elite is fun. As long as it's time consuming, they are content for most game "play" to be a glorified spectator mode with occasionally tedious interaction thrown in...

 

[Maka Gucci]

Or maybe they are really light on staff and simply do the least amount of effort for new mechanics.

I really believe it's that. They certainly are not blind, def, or dumb and so are fully aware of the excessive grind as well as their players attitude towards it. Surely, anyone would rather have happy consumers, than constantly resentful one.
We are not talking about mechanics that half the player base approve of and the other half don't, it's unanimous disdain, with the only fracture being between those that feel it needs to be improved and those who feel the solution is to just ignore it.

The only reason I could see (other than the ultra cynical perspective that it's a nasty way to keep player in game numbers/time up), is that it fulfils their quota with the limited resources available.
If true then doesn't that imply, that at least the design and programming teams working on this game are overworked and under resourced?

It's arguably, cheaper and easier to produce audio assets than to create story driven content or maintain a stable build and working back ground sim. So it's understandable that they could keep the quality up in that area.
But you can imagine if they try to add more intricate layers and mechanics without (evidently) having a sufficient quality control team of in house testers, when we think the updates seem buggy now.

I really love the game, and its such a shame, as it must be for members of the Dev team. Because I can't believe any of us feel these mechanics are as good as they could or should be.

 

[MAUXUS]

I can't bring myself to more grinding for guardian tech for now. I'm fed up with grinding.
Why the same guardians unlock 18 times?
Why didn't they place Material Traders at ALL the Engineers' bases, where it makes most sense to have them?
Why there are different Material Traders for each Materials (Encoded, Raw, Manufactured)?
Why does it take such a long time to transfer ships (at least double if not triple the time than if you did it yourself)?
Why the crash site at Orrere is so rough? Couldn't they make it flat so it would take less time to collect mats?
Every single thing in this game is coded to artificially increase the time you spend doing things, and unfortunately not in an enjoyable way.
It doesn't make sense that engineering ships IS the game play. Flying and combat (for example) should be the game play and engineering should only be a fraction of the game time. Thargoids: can you buy a combat ship and go fight them? Nope, it needs to be engineered (Shields, hull, boosters, etc). That means hours of grinding engineering before you can do what you set out to do. You want better weapons? Just repeat grinding 18 times over.
They must find ways to pull you into the game by your own will instead, like most successful games do.

 

[RagingxPenguin]

Fun and engaging content amiright?


I haven't even bothered

 

[steevaavoo]

I have unlocked the Guardian Gauss Cannon.

Nothing else.

The process I endured (not enjoyed) to get sufficient guardian widgets and doobobs, was above and beyond the usual "grindiness" I've come to expect in ED. The map itself had far too many points for the SRV to become inexplicably stuck, and the constantly tanking framerates were unbearable - and somewhat unexpected given my NVMe, 1080ti, 32GB RAM and i7 7700K.

I had to mode switch (obviously) several times to unlock some components from Obelisks (or whatever they're called), which is just unnatural.

The only thing that got me through it was alcohol and having 2 other people with me on Skype doing the same thing, to mock the whole silly process and have a laugh, though admittedly a laugh through gritted teeth.

I must add, on the other hand, that the architecture and the area itself was wonderfully designed visually and aurally, but whoever tested the driving on the site needs to take another look.

All that said - surely, surely there's a better way than this to unlock content?

I will now go away and stop calling people Shirley.

 

[Polared]

Just started doing the G´jun´s blueprints hunt this weekend! damn! took ages and a whole load of mind numbing driving (getting stuck and reloading to orbit) to get a grand total of, 12 weapons prints and 3 module prints! good god, there has to be a better way!
why do i always turn up late to the party when all the decent grubs gone?

 

[Enderby]

Dont know why anyone would still be confident In FD’s ability to add good ‘game’ to ED. They clearly seem unable to do this. Or reluctant maybe to put resources into doing so?

 

[Blackcompany]

I have unlocked the Guardian Gauss Cannon.

Nothing else.

The process I endured (not enjoyed) to get sufficient guardian widgets and doobobs, was above and beyond the usual "grindiness" I've come to expect in ED. The map itself had far too many points for the SRV to become inexplicably stuck, and the constantly tanking framerates were unbearable - and somewhat unexpected given my NVMe, 1080ti, 32GB RAM and i7 7700K.

I had to mode switch (obviously) several times to unlock some components from Obelisks (or whatever they're called), which is just unnatural.

The only thing that got me through it was alcohol and having 2 other people with me on Skype doing the same thing, to mock the whole silly process and have a laugh, though admittedly a laugh through gritted teeth.

I must add, on the other hand, that the architecture and the area itself was wonderfully designed visually and aurally, but whoever tested the driving on the site needs to take another look.

All that said - surely, surely there's a better way than this to unlock content?

I will now go away and stop calling people Shirley.

This is what Elite design has become: a laughing stock. Something to make jokes about. Like some sort of Mystery Science Theater 3000:Video Game edition.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I really believe it's that. They certainly are not blind, def, or dumb and so are fully aware of the excessive grind as well as their players attitude towards it. Surely, anyone would rather have happy consumers, than constantly resentful one.
We are not talking about mechanics that half the player base approve of and the other half don't, it's unanimous disdain, with the only fracture being between those that feel it needs to be improved and those who feel the solution is to just ignore it.

The only reason I could see (other than the ultra cynical perspective that it's a nasty way to keep player in game numbers/time up), is that it fulfils their quota with the limited resources available.
If true then doesn't that imply, that at least the design and programming teams working on this game are overworked and under resourced?

It's arguably, cheaper and easier to produce audio assets than to create story driven content or maintain a stable build and working back ground sim. So it's understandable that they could keep the quality up in that area.
But you can imagine if they try to add more intricate layers and mechanics without (evidently) having a sufficient quality control team of in house testers, when we think the updates seem buggy now.

I really love the game, and its such a shame, as it must be for members of the Dev team. Because I can't believe any of us feel these mechanics are as good as they could or should be.

Except it doesnt take any more effort to demand '1 blueprint' over '18 blueprints'. They intentionally add the grind regardless of any staffing issues. The grind is here not because of any kind of circumstantial factor, but simply because Sandro believes this is the right decision to make. So it is kinda important to clarify to him and his team that this decision is terrible on every level.

 

[tolm]

Here’s what gets me: I really want to battle the Thargoids and feel like I’m actually part of the galaxy but I don’t have the time to grind for the weapons that would allow me to do that. In any other MMO, the Thargs would be considered “end game content” so not something you can tackle straight away but not locked behind stuff you have to research online to even know exists and then repeat multiple times. Sure, some cool weapons or whatever locked away for the real hardcore players but not just to get a seat at the table for game content.

Also - story wise - how does this make sense? Human-kind is under attack and we know of some blueprints for special weapons that can help us. Shall we (a) get the Federal Navy to collect them and then mass produce them and, I dunno, offer them for sale to anyone with an Elite combat rank (as a measure of “fit to battle the ‘Goids) to help us fight or (b) rely on individuals to find them and then not write down what was on them every time they bring ‘em in so that the next person has to do it all over again?

Now, I don’t have Elite rank but would have no problem having to get to that before being able to take on the Thargs (via weapons then becoming unlocked from a special vendor at Elite rank) as opposed to the current “repeatedly collect arbitrary stuff” route. That would feel a lot more like “end game content” which you have to “finish the main game” (ie become Elite) to access.

 

[steevaavoo]

Here’s what gets me: I really want to battle the Thargoids and feel like I’m actually part of the galaxy but I don’t have the time to grind for the weapons that would allow me to do that. In any other MMO, the Thargs would be considered “end game content” so not something you can tackle straight away but not locked behind stuff you have to research online to even know exists and then repeat multiple times. Sure, some cool weapons or whatever locked away for the real hardcore players but not just to get a seat at the table for game content.

Also - story wise - how does this make sense? Human-kind is under attack and we know of some blueprints for special weapons that can help us. Shall we (a) get the Federal Navy to collect them and then mass produce them and, I dunno, offer them for sale to anyone with an Elite combat rank (as a measure of “fit to battle the ‘Goids) to help us fight or (b) rely on individuals to find them and then not write down what was on them every time they bring ‘em in so that the next person has to do it all over again?

Now, I don’t have Elite rank but would have no problem having to get to that before being able to take on the Thargs (via weapons then becoming unlocked from a special vendor at Elite rank) as opposed to the current “repeatedly collect arbitrary stuff” route. That would feel a lot more like “end game content” which you have to “finish the main game” (ie become Elite) to access.

I quite like this idea.