reverse flying and how to beat it?

[bladebss]

I was recently trying to kill an eravate noob killer in a fdl, I was in an imperial eagle... all he did was reverse and shoot me with gimbaled multis. I was corkscrewing woeard him to avoid the cannon as best I could but no matter what I did I just couldnt get behind him and trying to take him down walst in his rain of bullets was impossable.

I went and got my fdl...
he did the same and I still couldnt do anything but take it in the face and keep swallowing cell banks. If I dissengaged he was going to escape and no justice would be served.

does any one know how to counter this.. is there a way?

 

[Alex Nguyan]

does any one know how to counter this.. is there a way?

Bring a friend...

 

[Chris Simon]

Friend doesn't really help, unless they have a Clipper.
Speed seems to be the only reliable way to counter this.

The core problem of this is - If (let's suppose ships of comparable class) the opponent doesn't want to fight, there are no means to force him to.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Make sure you have more scb's than he does then. If you can't go faster forwards than he can backwards then all you can do is duke it out face to face. The guy with the most magic healing potions wins this one.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Take burst weapons (Plasma Accelerators, Frag cannons, etc.) and quickly burst him then fly out of his line of fire while you reload or just spin in circles, believe me, gimballed MCs HATE that!

 

[Chris Simon]

Make sure you have more scb's than he does then. If you can't go faster forwards than he can backwards then all you can do is duke it out face to face. The guy with the most magic healing potions wins this one.

Yea, it's kind of sad that most of the combat tactics shrunk into "First one to run out of SCBs runs away"

I do like PvP, but honestly, I enjoy PvE fights more, because they feel like actual fighting.

 

[eza]

Bring a friend...

Yeah pretty much this.

I've fortunately only encountered a few backwards flyers, but it's always when I'm in a smaller ship (Eagle) than them, and I can't hold up to the constant full-frontal assault from them.

It's a pain - I've tested it with my wingman, and no matter how much you try and boost past to get behind them, they just turn and you're back to square one.

You can try other tactics, like fitting railguns so that you do better damage at range than they do, and using silent running to break their lock (they won't get many hits on an imperial eagle with gimballed multicannons in fixed mode)

If you know you're facing someone using only kinetic weapons then make sure you've got the right bulkheads to minimise incoming damage.

---
Related: the Eagles need an extra utility slot. They should be able to consta-chaff like the other combat ships.

 

[Derath]

If they are using multi cannons you just have to sit back and alternate a left right wobble so everything misses, the wrong choice is to move in to them unless you have a ship that is considerably more maneuverable.

You can also boost slightly below the target and FA-off to correct mid boost to give you some up time.

But by and large its far more effort than its worth, if they are reversing just turn round and leave, its like people who bring 4 FDL's to kill a T9, they just aren't worth the time, yawn and move on.

 

[Edith_The_Hutt]

Huh. I'm prone to using the reverse throttle myself, but mainly when trying to tighten the angle of my turn against a more nimble opponent to ensure that I come out facing them with a good distance us so I can build up to a solid jaust. I thought reverse thrust was slower than using the main engine and made you a bit of a sitting duck but it worked for my brick-like combat style against smaller ships.

Is that not the case? Can you actually fly just as fast backwards as forwards? 'cause that don't seem right to me...

 

[DaveB]

Just keep him on your scanner just outside extreme weapons range and let him run. Provided you can stand the stink of the yellow streak he's leaving across the system you've done what you came to do, he's busy running from you not vaporizing defenseless noobs. If he pops into SC follow him and drop in on his wake as soon as he interdicts anyone. Your window of engagement as a single ship against a reverse-flyer with reasonable firepower is when they are engaged with somebody else.

The moment they begin acting the way that brought you there in the first place - attacking noobs - you can close the range and light 'em up.

Or they can ignore the noobs and just keep reverse-running from you, in which case you've won. He's not getting any "explosive satisfaction" and for as long as you stay on the outer edge of extreme weapons range they can't effectively engage you to get you off their track.

They can throttle down to try and draw you into their range - which also puts them in your range so you've got at least the duration of a single chaff canister to snipe him with your fixed weapons while his gimbals are going derp. If he stays engaged after that he's almost certainly detargeting to use his gimbals as fixed but that means he's actually getting into the enggement not just reverse-running any more.

Or he can leave. Maybe he's hoping to be in a different instance when he comes back and not encounter you? No worries. For as long as he keeps coming back, there's likely to be one or two other cmdrs thinking the way you do waiting for him

 

[Jex =TE=]

Yeah pretty much this.

I've fortunately only encountered a few backwards flyers, but it's always when I'm in a smaller ship (Eagle) than them, and I can't hold up to the constant full-frontal assault from them.

It's a pain - I've tested it with my wingman, and no matter how much you try and boost past to get behind them, they just turn and you're back to square one.

You can try other tactics, like fitting railguns so that you do better damage at range than they do, and using silent running to break their lock (they won't get many hits on an imperial eagle with gimballed multicannons in fixed mode)

If you know you're facing someone using only kinetic weapons then make sure you've got the right bulkheads to minimise incoming damage.

---
Related: the Eagles need an extra utility slot. They should be able to consta-chaff like the other combat ships.

The Viper is the fastest ship no boosting iirc? It also has a high strafe speed too. So it should be possible to catch up and as long as you can strafe faster than they can fly backwards, you should be able to keep to the side of them. Get a friend and try it out.

 

[Derath]

Huh. I'm prone to using the reverse throttle myself, but mainly when trying to tighten the angle of my turn against a more nimble opponent to ensure that I come out facing them with a good distance us so I can build up to a solid jaust. I thought reverse thrust was slower than using the main engine and made you a bit of a sitting duck but it worked for my brick-like combat style against smaller ships.

Is that not the case? Can you actually fly just as fast backwards as forwards? 'cause that don't seem right to me...

Thats just how to fly properly in combat, manipulating the throttle backwards and forwards isn't the same as leaving yourself going 100m/s backwards to give yourself maximum up time.

Reversing backwards basically guarantees that the ship with the strongest shields/weaponry will win - pilot skill isn't a factor because the difference in speed between ships isn't big enough to overcome the massive frontload you eat trying to gap close.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

There's no counter. With proper throttle control and FA-off an FDL can keep range and face-tank any ship. Then it's just down to DPS/HP

 

[DaveB]

Huh. I'm prone to using the reverse throttle myself, but mainly when trying to tighten the angle of my turn against a more nimble opponent to ensure that I come out facing them with a good distance us so I can build up to a solid jaust. I thought reverse thrust was slower than using the main engine and made you a bit of a sitting duck but it worked for my brick-like combat style against smaller ships.

Is that not the case? Can you actually fly just as fast backwards as forwards? 'cause that don't seem right to me...

Thats just how to fly properly in combat, manipulating the throttle backwards and forwards isn't the same as leaving yourself going 100m/s backwards to give yourself maximum up time.

Reversing backwards basically guarantees that the ship with the strongest shields/weaponry will win - pilot skill isn't a factor because the difference in speed between ships isn't big enough to overcome the massive frontload you eat trying to gap close.

Direct forward flight is indeed faster than reverse thrust. Fastest way to fly backwards is to boost, go FA-off and zero the throttle before rotating to face your pursuer. Your speed away from them will decay in FA-off down to the max forward speed you can achieve with your current # of engine pips.

As for reversing guaranteeing that the ship "with the strongest shields/weaponry will win" - no. Reversing is a technique to disengage not to press the fight. The pilot reversing away from you for more than a few seconds to open the range to one they consider more favorable to them has already admitted defeat, is breaking off the engagement and is not a threat. They are bringing their maximum weight of fire to bear in a defensive mode, which you can totally ignore unless your "fangs are hanging out" and you're dumb enough (or your ship is tanky enough) to charge down the throat of all that fire just to pop a target that's already bugging out. Let 'em go, just keep en eye on 'em. Sure they can can come back into the fight after a shield-recharging, weapon-cooling breathing space but unless you've been heavily engaged with their wingmates the whole time you'll have recovered some too and you made 'em run away once before didn't you?

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Direct forward flight is indeed faster than reverse thrust. Fastest way to fly backwards is to boost, go FA-off and zero the throttle before rotating to face your pursuer. Your speed away from them will decay in FA-off down to the max forward speed you can achieve with your current # of engine pips.

As for reversing guaranteeing that the ship "with the strongest shields/weaponry will win" - no. Reversing is a technique to disengage not to press the fight. The pilot reversing away from you for more than a few seconds to open the range to one they consider more favorable to them has already admitted defeat, is breaking off the engagement and is not a threat. They are bringing their maximum weight of fire to bear in a defensive mode, which you can totally ignore unless your "fangs are hanging out" and you're dumb enough (or your ship is tanky enough) to charge down the throat of all that fire just to pop a target that's already bugging out. Let 'em go, just keep en eye on 'em. Sure they can can come back into the fight after a shield-recharging, weapon-cooling breathing space but unless you've been heavily engaged with their wingmates the whole time you'll have recovered some too and you made 'em run away once before didn't you?

You haven't fought a pilot using this tactic properly. An FA-off FDL reverses at 300+m/s. Most combat ships boost to around 400m/s, averaging maybe 360 m/s with constant boosting. So from typical engagement ranges of, say 2km, you have 30 seconds of constant boosting before you can get behind them. In this time, you have two pips total to devote to SYS and WEP.

Once you reach them, they boost past you and flip around. Boom, they're several KM away again and the whole cycle starts over.

So lets recap:

30 seconds of boosting towards them, facetanking

2-3 seconds where you're behind them

5-10 seconds of them boosting past and turning round (where you get at msot a couple of seconds firing time if you're maneuvrable).

then back to the start.

If your DPS/their HP isn't 90% of their DPS/your HP, you lose. End of.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

There's a few Options :

- Railguns

Although limited in Ammo, the Crafting can fill that gap.
And with an effective Range well beyond the 3km of Lasers, noone will dare to boost and slowly reverse FA off against you. Not for long at least.

- MultiCannons

Probably the only Projectile Weapon fast enough to counter any reverse-drifting Target. 30% Damage Bonus with Crafting Premium Ammo is not to shabby either.

- Mirroring

More of an annoyance, but just do the same... No later than some 5-7km, see (visually) if your Target "gets it" and tries to force the fight.

- Sequenced Wing entries from various directions

Advanced Tactic, engaging Player initially not in a Wing and starts combat.
Then in the heat of the battle accepts Wing invite and has an already nearby Wing mate join from SuperCruise. High chance of going unnoticed to the Target when already engaged.
Can be used with multiple Wingmen coming from various directions, thus having a good chance to surprise-corner and surround the opponent.

- Guided Missiles

Only good upto ~3.5km Range and naturally limited vs. unshielded Targets. Still, not carried by many.

- Imperial Hammer

If available, provides quite an advantage vs. reverse-drifting opponents. They won't be drifting around for long.

- Plasma Accelerator

Typically useful only against larger Targets who have more problems dodging them, but at ~750m/sec projectile velocity still can be employed within a limited Range.

- the dedicated "Redeemer" reconfiguration

Requires a target to remain within the general area, thus allowing to fetch & reconfigure the Ship(s) speficially for this single Target's tactics, equipment and capabilities.
Essentially results in a highly specialized Assassination configuration built only for one single purpose : kill that specific Target and counter the way it commonly fights.

- the "Mission kill"

Essentially means a pure deny/distrupt/destroy tactic solely aimed at keeping the Target from doing what it would otherwise do, with no specific intent to actually kill the Target itself.
In the past, this annoyance has just about driven even the most hardcore Gankers out of a System.
Can be conducted in cheap, maneuverable Ships.
Interdict, skirmish/occupy Target (optional), escape - repeat. Until Target leaves the intended area of operations (= Mission Kill fully achieved).

 

[Zenith]

Your opponent is using their 6 degrees of freedom.
You also have 6 degrees of freedom. Use them all.

I'm no PvP player, but I use forward/reverse and lateral left/right/up/down along with the regular controls.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Perhaps we should lower the reversal max speed on engines?

After all, the reverse thrust engines are far smaller than the regular ones.

And it might even impact some maneuverability on some larger ships.

 

[Lowe1978]

Rails and 2x chaff launchers should be a good starting point.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

All of your solutions are either ineffective or rely on facetanking, meaning it's still impossible to win in a smaller ship.

There's a few Options :

- Railguns

Although limited in Ammo, the Crafting can fill that gap.
And with an effective Range well beyond the 3km of Lasers, noone will dare to boost and slowly reverse FA off against you. Not for long at least.

Still relies on Facetanking. What if your enemy has railguns (like FDLs are wont to now)?

Also your information is incorrect. Railguns have a 3km range and is heavily affected by damage falloff

- MultiCannons

Probably the only Projectile Weapon fast enough to counter any reverse-drifting Target. 30% Damage Bonus with Crafting Premium Ammo is not to shabby either.

Ineffective. Instantly countered by spiralling by any competent CMDR. Also, still relies on facetanking.

- Mirroring

More of an annoyance, but just do the same... No later than some 5-7km, see (visually) if your Target "gets it" and tries to force the fight.

Your opponent is not an idiot. They will advance towards you, and you'll end up doing exactly the same thing that they want: facetanking.

- Sequenced Wing entries from various directions

Advanced Tactic, engaging Player initially not in a Wing and starts combat.
Then in the heat of the battle accepts Wing invite and has an already nearby Wing mate join from SuperCruise. High chance of going unnoticed to the Target when already engaged.
Can be used with multiple Wingmen coming from various directions, thus having a good chance to surprise-corner and surround the opponent.

You can win any fight by bringing more reinforcements. This is not a valid tactic.

- Guided Missiles

Only good upto ~3.5km Range and naturally limited vs. unshielded Targets. Still, not carried by many.

Lol

- Imperial Hammer

If available, provides quite an advantage vs. reverse-drifting opponents. They won't be drifting around for long.

See railgun

- Plasma Accelerator

Typically useful only against larger Targets who have more problems dodging them, but at ~750m/sec projectile velocity still can be employed within a limited Range.

See multicannon

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Perhaps we should lower the reversal max speed on engines?

After all, the reverse thrust engines are far smaller than the regular ones.

And it might even impact some maneuverability on some larger ships.

That is the case normally. The problem is FA-off