Revisiting Piracy - My thoughts and your thoughts?
- Thread starter NeilF
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Best not to feed themI find doing things like this far more effective - click
I had no idea you could link people to useful pages like that! Thank you.
Certainly never wasted my time, in fact one of the more interesting reads on this forum, unlike your less than helpful post.
Shame on you for wasting my time reading your Horse poo.
Was dozing in the sofa when I 'dreamt up' a possible alternative theoretical mechanic that would kind of have been fun for all parties.
Make Piracy something that require a bit of finesse, speed and skill, sort of like pickpocketing.
Imagine it working sort of like interdiction, you'd have to be very close to the target.. say 200 meters or so (as it would be far too easy if you could do it at a distance), maybe even have to maintain a LOS with the cargohatch and play the little interdictiongame while sending limpets to the targets cargohold, loose it for even a second and the limpet would lose tracking and wander off, forcing you start over with a new limpet, obviously you'd need special limpets for this with a high evasion rating that could mostly avoid PD.
Doing it this way you'd never have to fire on the target ship and thus not get a response from the police.
It would also rightly so favor small agile ships over big well armed ones.
Yes, the idea is probably full of holes and maybe not even feasible, but hey it came to me in a dream
Make Piracy something that require a bit of finesse, speed and skill, sort of like pickpocketing.
Imagine it working sort of like interdiction, you'd have to be very close to the target.. say 200 meters or so (as it would be far too easy if you could do it at a distance), maybe even have to maintain a LOS with the cargohatch and play the little interdictiongame while sending limpets to the targets cargohold, loose it for even a second and the limpet would lose tracking and wander off, forcing you start over with a new limpet, obviously you'd need special limpets for this with a high evasion rating that could mostly avoid PD.
Doing it this way you'd never have to fire on the target ship and thus not get a response from the police.
It would also rightly so favor small agile ships over big well armed ones.
Yes, the idea is probably full of holes and maybe not even feasible, but hey it came to me in a dream
Was dozing in the sofa when I 'dreamt up' a possible alternative theoretical mechanic that would kind of have been fun for all parties.
Make Piracy something that require a bit of finesse, speed and skill, sort of like pickpocketing.
Imagine it working sort of like interdiction, you'd have to be very close to the target.. say 200 meters or so (as it would be far too easy if you could do it at a distance), maybe even have to maintain a LOS with the cargohatch and play the little interdictiongame while sending limpets to the targets cargohold, loose it for even a second and the limpet would lose tracking and wander off, forcing you start over with a new limpet, obviously you'd need special limpets for this with a high evasion rating that could mostly avoid PD.
Doing it this way you'd never have to fire on the target ship and thus not get a response from the police.
It would also rightly so favor small agile ships over big well armed ones.
Yes, the idea is probably full of holes and maybe not even feasible, but hey it came to me in a dream
lol it's not a bad idea
Certainly not the worst. Modified slightly, cargo interdictor module? all the while the 'interdiction' is taking place the cargo is pooping out. You just interdict for the necessary time to fill your coffers. Bigger better 'cargo interdictor' just poops more in the same time.
The victim plays a counter game, and once completed cannot be interdicted again for 10 minutes (save repeat interdiction).
Non lethal.. interactive, gamey, but at the same time, victim knows he's being attacked by a pirate not a player killer.
Not the worst idea ever
You need to explain in greater detail exactly what you mean by this, and you need to be contrast what you're thinking about to the way that the game currently works. I suspect that if you try to do that, your objection falls apart.
See, PKers can already kill you before the cops show up. In other words, a jammer which delays the cops doesn't change PKing
and here you're imagining something that hasn't been specified. Someone mentioned jammer and you imagine it means "no repercussions." The way you should think about suggestions (the way everyone should think about them) is by thinking of a way to make them work, not dismissing them out of hand based on only a moment's consideration and an intentionally uncharitable reading of them.
For example, a jammer could be implemented such that it delays the cops, but not the bounty. See how easy it was to fix the only problem that you had with it?
This! There are many high-level players and groups that would love to RP as white-hat bounty hunters, chasing PKers all over the galaxy. The problem is that currently, they can't reliably find the bad guys.
And another problem would be, if you gave PvP bounty hunters the tools to find pirates, the pirates can just suicide and drop all bounties.
Imagine if you had to reset your account in order to clear a PvP criminal record. Imagine if a PvP criminal record was tied to the major faction so that if you were wanted in Alliance space and you docked at an Alliance station, a "last seen in" report would go out on the net and bounty hunters could read it.
Well some more accountability has been asked for many times before. ie: What you're proposed but maybe not so harsh
ie: So a few mindless destructions are tolerated before the game starts seriously ramping up penalties to discourage more. This (effect) would then reduce over time. eg - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Reputation-quot-and-quot-Risk-Hot-Spots-quot
So after not having tried piracy (or the game really) properly for a while I thought I'd spend a few hours playing the victim and then trying some piracy to try and see where piracy is now?
Being a victim
- Flying around in a Python (no bounty and no PP allegiance) in a CG system, I was interdicted once, by a wing of CMDRs... No coms, no scans, immediately fired upon. *sigh - Another topic!*
In short, I wasn't pirated once!? A reflection of how few CMDRs are possibly doing this role?
Being a pirate
Note: As soon as I interdict a CMDR I give clear instructions. And typically even a second warning is given etc before taking any action. I very very very very rarely ever destroy CMDRs.
What went well?:-
- The lack of combat logging was good. I only had one or two CMDRs who (possibly) logged on me during a lot of encounters. I'd say logging is not an issue from this experience!
What didnt go well?:-
- On two occassions my limpets were picking up cargo, but it was not appearing in my ship.
- The moment you fire upon a ship (CMDR), security ships seemed to be called. This meant if you're using hatch breakers, typically by the time you come to recover the cargo (possibly spready over a large area), you're soon under fire quite likely meaning you can only pick up a few tons of cargo. This seems to be fairly standard, and as this was in a medium security system, goodness knows what it's like in higher security system?
- The profit, or lack of, from pirating CMDRs is appalling. A lot of effort, time and risk, for so little return. I'm not even sure at times if I was even making a profit?
- Quite often after interdicting a CMDR, and coming under attack from security vessels, when I went to jumped to SC the game hanged such that I had to kill it.
And as I soon realised "attacking" a CMDR meant security vessels would almost certainly mechanically be on the way, this almost suggested to me the game was almost promoting that if the CMDR won't willingly drop cargo under just the threat of violence, don't bother hatch breaking cargo, instead blow them up, so next time they will drop it without a shot being fired. This seems wonky?!
What I'd be interested to hear about from other players?
Hatch Breakers through shields
Still uncertain about this. It now just seems too easy to get cargo? But with the problem that security ships arrive so mechanically, it just ends up being frustrating.
I'd like to hear what other people think about this current new mechanic. It's never sounded right to me, and I still think either shields should still have to be brought down, or at least say brought down to 1 ring? (ie: You can't fire/target a hatch breaker with the enemy having more than 1 ring?)
Hatch Breakers and Collector Limpets
If you're intent on trying to get 20-30t of cargo out of a bigger ship, I'm not sure how the game would allow you to do this? It seems hatch breakers are too slow/limited in ejecting cargo, and then you're faced with cargo strewn over a large area... quite possibly soon to be patrolled by security vessels. Possibly at least need - click
FSD Disruptor
This seems pointless for piracy? You can extract cargo and typically do significant damage with the time it takes a victim to jump.
Better to have something else in its place IMHO.
Security Forces turning up so quickly like clockwork
This is a two edged sword IMHO. Because FD seem to want mindless destruction in their game (with little/no real penalty), they need the game to police itself based on this lowest common denominator. ie: If I was being mindlessly attacked by another CMDR simply to be destroyed, I'd like security forces arriving soon to back me up.
HOWEVER, the problem is, if you're trying to pirate a CMDR, this mechanic is frustrating. In my case I'd not destroyed a single CMDR pirating, and yet security was turning up so quickly over and over, I was regularly collecting cargo I'd hatch breakered under (significant) fire... This needs to be made more random at the very least. And possible it's another reason why the response rate should be based on your "Criminal Reputation" (karm system)? ie: The more often you kill CMDRs over a given period, the more hassle the game gives you? Destroy more CMDRs, generally get more attention more quickly etc. Kill less CMDRs, get less attention - click
$$$$$$$
The lack of reward is not fun. If instead as a pirate with reputation I could get missions at the CG say to specifically steal CG related cargo, and to get some mission payouts, that would be nice! But currently it's a lot of effort, time, risk, for quite literally no payout pirating CMDRs. I could probably have done one legitimate trade run for the CG and made far more CRs and delivered far more cargo than in hour(s) of being a pirate.
In Summary
Pirating (not mindless destruction!), and being pirated (not mindless destruction!), has given me some of the best moments in two+ years of playing ED. Why? Because it's forcing CMDRs togethor in interesting ways. And there's not many interesting PvP mechanics to choose from TBH! Consider three encounters from just yesterday:-
- Having hatch breakered some cargo from a CMDR I was in the process of beginning to collector limpet it when the security forced turned up, so I was on a ticking clock until they opened fire etc.. and then another CMDRs turned up too... Slowly picking up 1000CR cargo has never been so tense
- I interdicted a CMDR, and asked them to drop 10T of cargo which they did. As soon as they did this an NPC ship arrived and while I was collector limpeting the NPC opened fire on my victim. As soon as I was finished, I helped the CMDR out...
- I interdicted a CMDR who was very slow in responding... So much when an NPC turned up and opened fire on him I thought what the hell, and while he was fighting the NPC, I hatch breakered him, collected the cargo... And left
But IMHO piracy is far from what it should and could be. It's been basically ignored for two years, and is unfortunately blemished/tarnished by its unwanted cousin, "mindless destruction". So I still believe Piracy need some TLC and depth added to promote constructive "good" piracy, while importantly at the same time, penalising (habitual) mindless destruction. At the very least I still think some of the issues above (such as security vessel response rates, hatch breakers/cargo collection) need some attention.
Bare with me a little here, just woke up and haven't had a coffee yet. As such, I may have missed parts of your post in my haze.
It seems to me that security response times are your biggest issue. It helps knowing their approximate arrival times in comparison to a systems security level.
Generally, it goes like this:
High Security : 15-30 seconds
Medium security : 1-2 minutes
Low security : 5+ minutes
Lawless : no response
I'm not sure if there are other factors in a system which affect response times like certain economic states.
With this information, it may be easier to choose systems in which to choose targets. I know if players are your primary target, you may not have the luxury to choose where you engage.
Personally, I'm fine with this, as I feel some systems should be more safe (or dangerous) than others. As a suggestion to FDev, I think it would be good to have a higher incentive for traders/miners/other non-combat roles to go to lower security systems.
Secondly, I noticed that the hatch-breaker hacking times seemed like an issue as well. This has a fairly easy work around. When a hatch-breaker is working, the hull integrity of the target ship has a direct correlation to the hacking time. For example, if a ship has 100% hull integrity, a hatch-breaker will take the full amount of time listed in the outfitting screen. On the other end of the spectrum, if a ship has very low hull integrity left (15%-10%) you hatch-breakers will work nearly instantly.
Given that shooting a ship (not destroying) and hitting it with a hatch-breaker are the same crime (assault) it seems more productive to shoot a ship before firing your hatch-breakers.
Since the change to hatch-breakers, where they now go through shields, I've always thought of it as kind of a hit and run tactic.
The HB limpet takes time, the target is still moving, the cargo will be spread over a potentially large area, and security is incoming fast; therefore you will only be able to grab a small amount of cargo. To me, this seems to be working as intended, even if it could use a few minor tweaks.
What I may suggest to the OP, if players are your primary target. Wait outside a station frequented by players and (manifest) scan any likely targets leaving the mail slot. Since most players who are trading/running hauling missions will most likely hi-wake to another system after clearing hard mass-lock, scan their wake and follow them to whichever system they warped to. It's entirely possible that they've gone to a system in which security response times are longer/non-existent. Do your dirty work there. After all, there is a saying like "don't [biowaste] where you sleep".
Once I'm more awake, I'll read through your post more thoroughly, but for now, I think the points I covered may help in your swashbuckling exploits.
In closing, the system isn't perfect, but there are still ways to make it work for you if you learn the underlying mechanics necessary to do so.
Then, how would you counter the jammer? The issue is, balance. You cannot give everything to player hostile characters, whilst giving no tools to the would be victims. I'd expect then, you'd get into the whole E-War ping pong. Then you'd have me asking for a signal jammer, so as to stop the pirate jamming me.
OP, First off I would like to say Thank You and kudos for playing the role of pirate the way it should be done. I think that PK'ers are the reason that pirates can't have any interesting toys (communications jammers etc.) as things currently stand and THAT is a shame. Piracy needs to be viable and lucrative, but also needs to be given tools that would not encourage mindless pk'ing any more than it already is. I don't see a problem with hatch breakers circumventing shields and in fact think that these would be my suggestions to improve piracy without rewarding gankhappy idjuts:
1. Hatch Breakers and limpet collectors should be combined into one module for use in piracy.
2. The use of the module should not count as a bounty just a fine therefore not needing a rapid response from security forces.
3. With theft only being a fine and not a bounty there is no need to adjust the security response time at all. If you can't get a significant amount of cargo before jump maybe introduce a FSD inhibiter limpet module (whose use would also constitute a fine instead of a bounty) or as someone else suggested have the limpets bundle cargo into multiples (say maybe 2 per limpet or adjust as necessary until being a thief is on par with the other professions).
4. As soon as the pirate leaves the scene of the crime with the stolen goods the fines could be converted into bounty so as that at that point they receive proper punishment for the crimes they did indeed commit.
5. If you resort to the use of weapons for any reason (be it noncompliance or just good ole malice) against a clean target then you should suffer the consequences period.
In short piracy needs to be rewarded without rewarding the mindless pk morons and that takes careful consideration, and some time. I agree however that piracy as well as exploration, and even mining to some extent need some more love.
1. Hatch Breakers and limpet collectors should be combined into one module for use in piracy.
2. The use of the module should not count as a bounty just a fine therefore not needing a rapid response from security forces.
3. With theft only being a fine and not a bounty there is no need to adjust the security response time at all. If you can't get a significant amount of cargo before jump maybe introduce a FSD inhibiter limpet module (whose use would also constitute a fine instead of a bounty) or as someone else suggested have the limpets bundle cargo into multiples (say maybe 2 per limpet or adjust as necessary until being a thief is on par with the other professions).
4. As soon as the pirate leaves the scene of the crime with the stolen goods the fines could be converted into bounty so as that at that point they receive proper punishment for the crimes they did indeed commit.
5. If you resort to the use of weapons for any reason (be it noncompliance or just good ole malice) against a clean target then you should suffer the consequences period.
In short piracy needs to be rewarded without rewarding the mindless pk morons and that takes careful consideration, and some time. I agree however that piracy as well as exploration, and even mining to some extent need some more love.
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I pirate in a cobra, and would never pick a fight with an armed python. So that could explain part of that.
As for hatching/collecting.
Silent running is, contrary to popular belief, surprisingly effective at fooling the cops, if you know how to do it. I can normally get most spilled cargo using silent running, heat sinks, and targeted collector limpets.
The problem is, I am out of heat sinks after that, and they are my primary defence. So I am vulnerable to bounty hunters/murderers after a single engagement. Mostly because I fit a cargo scanner.
As for hatching/collecting.
Silent running is, contrary to popular belief, surprisingly effective at fooling the cops, if you know how to do it. I can normally get most spilled cargo using silent running, heat sinks, and targeted collector limpets.
The problem is, I am out of heat sinks after that, and they are my primary defence. So I am vulnerable to bounty hunters/murderers after a single engagement. Mostly because I fit a cargo scanner.
Ta useful! They do seem a little like clockwork though no matter what...
Handy again! Thanks!
I'll swear my hatchbreakers are like 5 seconds or something... Given I'd probably have to be shooting a ship a lot longer than that to get rid of shields and then reduce their hull signficantly, not sure there's a gain in opening fire first there!?
Understood, just the response rates of security seem a little too quick/predictable for me at least. Sort of too mechanical/gamey instead of more random and "real"?
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Excuse the lack of multi-quotes in my reply, it's a pain to do on mobile.
On the topic of time to drop shields and damage the targets hull vs the time it takes to hack a cargo hatch, I think it's one of those "it depends" situations. The base hacking time for a 1A hatch breaker (as listed on coriolis.io) is 18 seconds per limpet. So unless you've got enough firepower to cut through shields and damage hull, it may make more sense to just fire a limpet and take what you can get off of one drop. If you're in a medium or low security system, it may be worth it to damage the target first so you can at least get a few more drops before authority ships arrive. That, to me is just something that needs to be played by ear. Is it better to get one drop and bug out (4-8 cans worth of cargo in at least 18 seconds) or is it more worthwhile to attack first and get a much faster hacking time, which potentially equals more booty?
Personally, I use a 1B hatch breaker controller on my piracy asp because it lets me use two limpets simultaneously, but the base hacking time is 21 seconds/limpet. So in my case, it's much faster to strip their shields and damage their hull for a faster hacking time and more cargo dropped.
In my opinion, it's an action that needs thought, which is something I enjoy.
As for the response times, I've found that they do vary between systems with the same security level. I've been in low sec systems where the response takes 10 minutes (timed with a stop watch while I was teaching myself NPC piracy) and others where they show up right at the 5:00 mark. The same goes for the other times I listed in my last post. I think you may be right in that in any given system it can become too predictable though, as the variation I've noticed is between different systems. For example, a medium security system with a 2 minute response time, always seems to be around 2 minutes as long as I was there, with little variation. I too would like it to be a bit more dynamic with response times factoring in things like previous bounties, current ship being piloted, value of the targets cargo, etc.
That being said, I think the best solution is still to try and target player in lower security systems. High-sec should have incredibly fast response times, and low sec should be slow, with medium falling between the two. I'm sure there are factors that change the response times as they aren't completely uniform across all systems with similar security levels. I'm just not sure what exactly those factors are, as they themselves can be quite varied. It could take into account the controlling factions influence, the wealth and population of the system, and any economic states present in the BGS. Without further testing though, I can't say for sure the effects on response times though.
My (current) 3A is 7s...
Understood... But it seemed over the weekend like clockwork... Little or no ifs/buts to it...
My (current) 3A is 7s...
Understood... But it seemed over the weekend like clockwork... Little or no ifs/buts to it...
I'm thinking coriolis is outdated now, if it says 7 in game then it definitely makes more sense to just use them through shields. I don't have my PC handy to check for myself, but that's good information to have. Thanks
You second point is also curious for me. Is it just in one system? Or between different systems with the same security level. I think this calls for a re-assessment of my findings, as they were from 2.1 so they too, may be outdated now. Time to get the stopwatch out again I think.
Either way, it's also good to know. If anything, this thread will help us all work out piracy to an exact science that is workable, even if the system isn't perfect for the unsavoury work we're involved in.
We've got to work with what we've got until a meaningful C&P system is added. (Please FD, a morality reputation system would fix so many issues!)
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Don't forget how much cargo you can extract (eg: via rather slow/limited hatch breakers), and then how quickly you can pick it up
But there's also the option maybe even just for piracy based missions for example specifically for some CGs to then at least potentially pay out rewards to bolster profits a bit.
Don't forget that the players who would be prey to these enhanced piracy measures are, effectively, volunteers - as they do not need to play among player pirates. Swing the balance too far in the direction of the pirates and there may be a dearth of available victims.
.... and if the CG depended on players as targets, who'd be volunteering for that role?
Piracy (when done properly) can be a decent experience for all concerned. However, people who were dropped on their heads as children use piracy as a cover for blatant murder.
Some sort of player pirate guild is needed where players, who use piracy unscrupulously, get hunted down. Takes a thief to catch one, so it takes a pirate to police piracy.
Some sort of player pirate guild is needed where players, who use piracy unscrupulously, get hunted down. Takes a thief to catch one, so it takes a pirate to police piracy.