Revisiting Piracy - My thoughts and your thoughts?

[sidereal6]

Then, how would you counter the jammer?

Game balance doesn't necessarily imply a counter. It only implies a cost. In my opinion, the limited benefit of this proposed jammer (namely, it changes the police response time from a few seconds to a few minutes - and there's no other benefit) is balanced by the fact that it takes up valuable, limited space on the pirate's ship.

Keep in mind my claim that the jammer doesn't help PKers. They can kill you before the police show up anyway.

You cannot give everything to player hostile characters, whilst giving no tools to the would be victims.

Oh, I'm all about counters, I just don't think they're strictly necessary here. Nonetheless, I can propose a few: how about an SOS bouy. It's basically a limpet with a tiny, single-use FSD allowing it to jump away and call for help.

Or, how about a homing beacon sort of thing. You can fire it at a pirate and if you get a hit, they show up on the galaxy map (to anyone who has that filter set). That would allow bounty hunters to home in on them. An before anyone says it, yes obviously there would be mechanisms in place to prevent abuse - like for example, if you're not wanted, the beacon does nothing (meaning, you can't grief an honest trader by tagging him).

Another idea is to have countermeasures that defend a trader from ever getting interdicted in the first place. I would love to have a decoy limpet. Same idea as above (it has a tiny, single-use FSD). You launch it while in supercruise, and anyone who has you selected as their target immediately loses the lock, because now there are two of you. The decoy only lasts perhaps 30 seconds, and from the attacker's perspective, it looks just like you.

That means the attacker has to either guess which one is which, and thus have a 50:50 chance of actually interdicting you, or wait for the decoy to expire.

I'd also like to see the interdictor class be required to match or exceed the FSD class. In other words, if you want to be a pirate that can pull down Anacondas and T9s with their class-6 FSDs, then you're going to need a class-7 interdictor, and that would mean either a clipper, an anaconda, a corvette, or a cutter (and it would require class-7 interdictors which don't currently exist).

 

[NeilF]

This evening I actually encountered a spate of combat logging with 3-4 CMDRs all "disappearing". Infact, I believe it was mostly CMDRs "15s returning to menu", because the individuals simply disappeared after about that time, where as I believe combat logging typically leaves a "ghost ship" flying along, at least from previous experience. Anyone able to comment on the this and how the game handles it these days? ie: Can you easily tell the differenc between a combat log and a 15s return to menu?

I still think:-
1) The 15s countdown for someone to return to menu, should be displayed to ALL CMDRs in the instance.
2) Weapon hits should return it back to 15 seconds.

 

[NascentChemist]

I pulled two ships out of storage to play this CG specifically in Open. I don't need to risk my T-9, Asp, or Anaconda if I'm just transporting <40 tons of rares. Sadly, I've only been pirated one time. A vulture several combat ranks below me successfully interdicted me, but I could boost out of sensor range before they could even send demands... I turned around and gave them some cargo anyway when I realized they were an actual pirate.

The problem is that if I see an FDL loitering in SC, especially if it's in a wing, I can't assume it's a pirate. Anecdotally, that cmdr is much more likely to kill me without comms. The result is I do everything short of CL to avoid them in the first place. I'll keep my nose pointed towards them, low-wake to wait for them to move on, low-wake then hi-wake, low-wake then mode switch(!), etc. I've got strong incentives to avoid any PVP encounter even when I'm specifically looking for PVP piracy. Avoiding psycho gankers breaks "mah immershun" and punishes legitimate pirates. I realize that senseless destruction wasn't meant to be the topic, but the two are inherently linked.

 

[Zepode]

FSD missile is pointless for piracy? Hahahaha wow. You have no idea what you're doing.

 

[Kastor]

For me the biggest thing that would help out piracy is a bigger penalty for players that mindlessly kill. Thanks to engineers there are heaps of way to temporarily impair or disable ships to do your work so a pirate should rarely need to kill.

I've brought this up before and I bring it up again:

I think a player protest against the Pilots Federation via physical blockade of key stations would be an awesome way to bring dev attention to this issue using a real in universe event. We want Pilots Federation members to be punished for murdering each other... that sound's like an issue for the Pilots Federation to be forced to solve.

 

[Zepode]

For me the biggest thing that would help out piracy is a bigger penalty for players that mindlessly kill. Thanks to engineers there are heaps of way to temporarily impair or disable ships to do your work so a pirate should rarely need to kill.

I've brought this up before and I bring it up again:

I think a player protest against the Pilots Federation via physical blockade of key stations would be an awesome way to bring dev attention to this issue using a real in universe event. We want Pilots Federation members to be punished for murdering each other... that sound's like an issue for the Pilots Federation to be forced to solve.

So who would be the blockade? Because unless it's all of the strong PvP ships you talk about disliking so much, your blockade will fail.

 

[Kastor]

So who would be the blockade? Because unless it's all of the strong PvP ships you talk about disliking so much, your blockade will fail.

??

I think your very much missing the point as to how protests function.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think a player protest against the Pilots Federation via physical blockade of key stations would be an awesome way to bring dev attention to this issue using a real in universe event. We want Pilots Federation members to be punished for murdering each other... that sound's like an issue for the Pilots Federation to be forced to solve.

Some already players congregate around popular places specifically to engage in PKing - attempting to blockade them would seem to give the PKers more targets.

.... and blockades don't really work in this game.

 

[NeilF]

Bare with me a little here, just woke up and haven't had a coffee yet. As such, I may have missed parts of your post in my haze.

It seems to me that security response times are your biggest issue. It helps knowing their approximate arrival times in comparison to a systems security level.

Generally, it goes like this:
High Security : 15-30 seconds
Medium security : 1-2 minutes
Low security : 5+ minutes
Lawless : no response

I'm going to do some more tests...

I'll swear security forces are turning up, in force, quicker that 1-2 mins, in medium security.


I think a serious problem is, be it that you open fire immediately on a victim with the intent of blowing them to pieces, or carefully go through coms, and then end up not shooting at the victim, but instead us a hatch breaker, this time is basically the same...

And you end up typically under a hail of fire after limpet collecting just 1-2t of cargo...

And this seems like clockwork.

It just doesn't seem very good IMHO.

FSD missile is pointless for piracy? Hahahaha wow. You have no idea what you're doing.

Care to expand on that?

Given I have security forces arriving within a minute or less (medium security system), how would making my victim hang around even longer help? Unless you want to make stick around to watch you being fired upon? *confused*

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Care to expand on that?

Given I have security forces arriving within 30s or so, how would making my victim hang around even longer help?

This is an actual issue unless FD can give us more data or expand on how security works in different security settings.

- Security status VS response times (Ok, low security means how long exactly?)
- Response time VS Government type
- Response time VS type of ruling faction (Criminal, Corporate, Government, Law Enforcement)
- Response time VS pilot faction standing (disliked faction member in a system with opposing faction ruling taking longer to help opponents)
- Security Status VS CMDR ship VS Actual security forces responding (Two Anacondas and 4 Eagles VS 1 unfortunate Eagle CMDR...)

 

[NeilF]

This is an actual issue unless FD can give us more data or expand on how security works in different security settings.

- Security status VS response times (Ok, low security means how long exactly?)
- Response time VS Government type
- Response time VS type of ruling faction (Criminal, Corporate, Government, Law Enforcement)
- Response time VS pilot faction standing (disliked faction member in a system with opposing faction ruling taking longer to help opponents)
- Security Status VS CMDR ship VS Actual security forces responding (Two Anacondas and 4 Eagles VS 1 unfortunate Eagle CMDR...)

And indeed randomness to it too?

ie: It seems to be like they respond almost like clockwork. I'll try and run some rigid tests through for examples.


But even just firing hatch breakers at CMDRs who have run, and not firing a shot, means by the time I'm limpet collecting my first cargo I'm possibly already under fire. Pretty much like clockwork.

What is my incentive to use hatch breakers and not to shoot on the victim, if I can't even get a few tons of cargo... And let's not even consider trying to get 10-30t?

 

[Snarfbuckle]

And indeed randomness to it too?

ie: It seems to be like they respond almost like clockwork. I'll try and run some rigid tests through for examples.


But even just firing hatch breakers at CMDRs who have run, and not firing a shot, means by the time I'm limpet collecting my first cargo I'm possibly already under fire. Pretty much like clockwork.

What is my incentive to use hatch breakers and not to shoot on the victim, if I can't even get a few tons of cargo... And let's not even consider trying to get 10-30t?

So the only place to SAFELY be a pirate is in Anarchy systems (at best).

 

[DrFetid]

Having been robbed once and just outright killed a few times in the past weeks I would like to see more severe penalties for just killing your target. No questions, just killed last time. Luckily I just had some low-value food items so sucks for the pirates.

What if the interdictor could be additionally used to jam the targets FSD further to keep them from jumping during "negotiations"?
I would not mind this system: set a customized/random "robbery phrase" when initiating Commander interdiction and after being pulled out of FSD if the target goes above a speed limit or waits too long you are free to shoot them with a normal bounty. If they respond to the message (like with some mission messages) they automatically abandon some cargo and shooting them becomes a major crime with a large, longer bounty that might even persist through one death.

 

[NeilF]

So the only place to SAFELY be a pirate is in Anarchy systems (at best).

I don't think folks are after safe piracy, but at least some reasonly mechanics for it to work within.

All I can say was yesterday (medium security system) - as a pirate who typically doesn't want to destroy traders - even when they ignore my threats, and fly off, and then I do the bare minumum to get some cargo (ie: not fire a shot and just a single hatch breaker), I'm rewarded with collection limpets getting me a coulpe of tons of cargo while under fire...

It at the very least needs to be made more random IMHO. And/or maybe the more damage, the quicker they can arrive? All based upon the systems security rating.

- - - Updated - - -

Having been robbed once and just outright killed a few times in the past weeks I would like to see more severe penalties for just killing your target. No questions, just killed last time. Luckily I just had some low-value food items so sucks for the pirates.

What if the interdictor could be additionally used to jam the targets FSD further to keep them from jumping during "negotiations"?
I would not mind this system: set a customized/random "robbery phrase" when initiating Commander interdiction and after being pulled out of FSD if the target goes above a speed limit or waits too long you are free to shoot them with a normal bounty. If they respond to the message (like with some mission messages) they automatically abandon some cargo and shooting them becomes a major crime with a large, longer bounty that might even persist through one death.

The problem at the moment is (as mentioned in the OP), while mindless destruction is basically all but ignored by FD, any mechanic aimed at helping "true piracy" could most likely help mindless destruction/ganking.

If FD could introduce a Crime and Punishment system which penalised repeat psychotic behaviour, we might then be able to move "true piracy" forwards IMHO - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Reputation-quot-and-quot-Risk-Hot-Spots-quot

 

[DrFetid]

If you ask me I will drop, maybe even abandon, some cargo if you are polite. If you just shoot, have fun with the robbed cargo.

Maybe also have most of the cargo vaporize if the ship is destroyed could encourage proper "protocol"?

 

[NeilF]

If you ask me I will drop, maybe even abandon, some cargo if you are polite. If you just shoot, have fun with the robbed cargo.

Maybe also have most of the cargo vaporize if the ship is destroyed could encourage proper "protocol"?

From my experience over the past few days - having not pirated/played for sometime:-
- A small minority of CMDRs will log or 15s exit to menu.
- Most CMDRs seem to run and ignore (polite) requests to come to a half.

If a CMDR stops and hands over X tons of cargo then clearly this works well for both parties, assuming the amount of cargo isn't unfair. However, if a trader runs, then I'd suggest at the moment, the mechanic sort of falls apart. There's little/no challenge now as the hatch breakers just attach - done! And worse still, security forces seem to turn up so quickly (like clockwork) in medium security systems at least:-
a) The pirate is hard pushed to collect much cargo.
b) The trader has probably lost more cargo than the pirate would have asked for.


In short, the mechanics when a trader runs seem flawed at the moment - There should be some skill/finesse in extracting cargo ideally with less/measured violence meaning a better outcome/reward. At the moment this is not the case! - Hatch breakers are too easy. And security forces response the same like clockwork.

 

[DrFetid]

A few days ago I was stopped by some guy and asked me to drop 30t of robotics. I did (although I still didn't know I could have abandoned for more value for him so sorry for that if you see this) and he let me go. I found this commendable and hope that the wing that blew me up got caught by the system forces.

If you cannot be bothered to copypaste a cool phrase you are not a pirate, just a moron.

 

[sewerratuk]

Whats all this 'true piracy' and 'proper protocol'?

This is an extract from a Drew Wagner book:

'The Python's owner, a pirate of some notoriety, savoured his victim's last moments. The
cargo had already been stolen, and he didn't feel in a merciful mood today, he had his reputation to
maintain.'

Seems to me that piracy in the Elite world can involve taking cargo and then destroying the ship.

 

[DrFetid]

Good point, but in more secure systems "protocol" could be more important to avoid trouble. Although reputation could bring with it higher bounties and penalties. Hm... actually, if that were a thing in-game... New faction or something?

 

[NeilF]

A few days ago I was stopped by some guy and asked me to drop 30t of robotics. I did (although I still didn't know I could have abandoned for more value for him so sorry for that if you see this) and he let me go. I found this commendable and hope that the wing that blew me up got caught by the system forces.

If you cannot be bothered to copypaste a cool phrase you are not a pirate, just a moron.

I was sending light hearted messages along the lines of "...be my valentine....etc..." yesterday... Ignoring the CMDRs who even just logged when given such messages followed by an interdiction, I'll have to upload a video of one CMDR who even though I went to great lengths to not even fire a shot at him when he refused to stop, and gave nice clear/polite coms, was still throwing abuse at me and using terms such as, "you pirate types..." etc...


I'll re-itterate as the game stands at the moment, it rewards a pirate basically seal bashing any CMDR who refuses to stop and give over cargo... Because if they run, trying to hatch breaker them is nigh on pointless (in medium security at least), so you may as well try to make it expensive/painful for them so next time you run into them they will instead stop. HOWEVER, this is simply more likely to make traders go into SOLO IMHO!