Reviving the discussion about manipulating in-cockpit controls with VR controllers in Elite

[danielfriesen]

Some time ago I made a post about the idea of having VR controller support with a working virtual joystick like in the (then upcoming) VTOL VR game.

Since then VTOL VR has been released, I've got VR hardware, and I've experienced both Elite Dangerous (gamepad) and VTOL VR (virtual joystick) in VR.

And as it turns out, the VR controller based joystick and throttle handling in VTOL VR work quite well. Well enough that it would definitely work in Elite Dangerous. I also found that I enjoy using non-critical inputs like landing gear through the in-cockpit menu controls more than with using a hotkey.

Someone else even used a set of SteamVR overlays to create virtual controls in Elite Dangerous (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJbsES-mfEc). Sadly I could not get the programs they used to work myself.

I have a few clips of VTOL VR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D-mH4cwk_A&list=PLO8EhC8LAzNzLGmAwDrDNDnQRVhXPa00b

And a clip of launching and docking in Elite using the in-cockpit landing gear toggle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D8-WjIadTU

(It's my first time trying to record a VR game and I was only expecting to make GIFs, so it's low quality and there's no sound)

 

[CylonSurfer]

Some time ago I made a post about the idea of having VR controller support with a working virtual joystick like in the (then upcoming) VTOL VR game.

Since then VTOL VR has been released, I've got VR hardware, and I've experienced both Elite Dangerous (gamepad) and VTOL VR (virtual joystick) in VR.

And as it turns out, the VR controller based joystick and throttle handling in VTOL VR work quite well. Well enough that it would definitely work in Elite Dangerous. I also found that I enjoy using non-critical inputs like landing gear through the in-cockpit menu controls more than with using a hotkey.

Someone else even used a set of SteamVR overlays to create virtual controls in Elite Dangerous (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJbsES-mfEc). Sadly I could not get the programs they used to work myself.

I have a few clips of VTOL VR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D-mH4cwk_A&list=PLO8EhC8LAzNzLGmAwDrDNDnQRVhXPa00b

And a clip of launching and docking in Elite using the in-cockpit landing gear toggle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D8-WjIadTU

(It's my first time trying to record a VR game and I was only expecting to make GIFs, so it's low quality and there's no sound)

The first video only really shows why it is a silly idea. I've even added some touch controls to my PDA app for Elite which works in a similar way via Oculus Dash i.e landing gear up / down, station menu control etc buttons - one thing I learnt was that after 5 minutes it grew old and I rarely use the feature now desipte spending some time coding it.

I'm not opposed to the overall idea in general, but with that said I wouldn't want development time diverted away from far, far more critical / long awaited new features and fixes / updates for existing ones.

In honesty montion control in Elite wouldn't get much use, just as with racing sims - you are better off using the right tool for the job. Wheels / HOTAS's are both far more precise and immersive than motion control for these types of games. Switching between input devices, even for non critical tasks is not that pleasent either.

 

[danielfriesen]

The first video only really shows why it is a silly idea. I've even added some touch controls to my PDA app for Elite which works in a similar way via Oculus Dash i.e landing gear up / down, station menu control etc buttons - one thing I learnt was that after 5 minutes it grew old and I rarely use the feature now desipte spending some time coding it.

I'd say the silliest part of the first video is all the basic shapes and keyboard like keys you have to overlay over top of an actual cockpit to get anywhere near being able to control the cockpit with your hands.

I get the argument you're aiming for, but having an overlay floating over top of your view of the cockpit that brings the equivalent of a few keyboard presses into view is pretty different than the ability to see your hand moving 1:1, reach over and grab a joystick that you can actually see / "the" joystick that actually controls the ship, and manipulate it.

I'm not opposed to the overall idea in general, but with that said I wouldn't want development time diverted away from far, far more critical / long awaited new features and fixes / updates for existing ones.

Shame FD doesn't have a way to integrate community development. I'd love to take a crack at seeing if I can add a switch to decouple the arms from the animations and attach it to tracked hands instead.

In honesty montion control in Elite wouldn't get much use, just as with racing sims - you are better off using the right tool for the job. Wheels / HOTAS's are both far more precise and immersive than motion control for these types of games. Switching between input devices, even for non critical tasks is not that pleasent either.

Have you tried VTOL VR? It's far more precise than you'd think, it's like 99% precision. I managed air combat, vertically hovering between buildings, and vertical landing on a helipad all with "motion controls". I don't disagree that you can get 100% with a physical HOTAS. But I'm willing to sacrifice a tiny amount of precision for the ability to actually see my joystick and throttle, see my hands move around when I let go of them, and press "the" button in the ship I can see in front of me that controls a piece of functionality instead of trying to remember which 2-button hotkey I mapped to that function. Also, I mostly play the transport/exploration/light combat parts of Elite, I don't even need as much precision as I got in VTOL VR. In fact I comfortably did maneuvers in VTOL VR well in excess of what I've ever done in Elite.

I'm not sure what you're referring to in switching input devices. But the VTOL VR controls I'm wanting to use in Elite are all one pair of VR controllers, there is no physical switching of inputs. And if you are instead of the variety of person who does want a hybrid (i.e. physical HOTAS and virtual cockpit controls), VR gloves or leapmotion would make seamless the transition from letting go of your HOTAS, moving your hand and pressing a button, then grabbing back onto your HOTAS.

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

I control everything from my HOTAS or with voice, so why would I bother with a load of clunky overlays?

 

[danielfriesen]

I control everything from my HOTAS or with voice, so why would I bother with a load of clunky overlays?

Because if they are built into the game they aren't clunky overlays?
Because you don't have/want a HOTAS, you don't want to drag your HOTAS into your VR playspace just to play a relaxing mission in your ship, or your HOTAS is out for repair?
Because it's been ages since you last played, you've completely forgotten all your the long list of HOTAS keybindings you had memorized and how to use them, an you just want to use an easier input method that doesn't require a bunch of unintuitive memorization?
Because you want to be able to actually see your hands move?
Because you see all these buttons sitting right in front of you and you want to press them?
Because you want to try piloting your ship the way an actual Elite Dangerous commander pilots their ship, instead of piloting the ship as someone with a display strapped to their head remote controlling a headless robot?

 

[ebbrell]

Hi for me we need to look at VR gloves, and have you hand on screen as you reach forward. The switches should be on screen and touchable.

Looking down we see switches let's touch them

When you look down may be a keyboard is there for you to touch.

 

[CylonSurfer]

I'd say the silliest part of the first video is all the basic shapes and keyboard like keys you have to overlay over top of an actual cockpit to get anywhere near being able to control the cockpit with your hands.

I get the argument you're aiming for, but having an overlay floating over top of your view of the cockpit that brings the equivalent of a few keyboard presses into view is pretty different than the ability to see your hand moving 1:1, reach over and grab a joystick that you can actually see / "the" joystick that actually controls the ship, and manipulate it.


Shame FD doesn't have a way to integrate community development. I'd love to take a crack at seeing if I can add a switch to decouple the arms from the animations and attach it to tracked hands instead.


Have you tried VTOL VR? It's far more precise than you'd think, it's like 99% precision. I managed air combat, vertically hovering between buildings, and vertical landing on a helipad all with "motion controls". I don't disagree that you can get 100% with a physical HOTAS. But I'm willing to sacrifice a tiny amount of precision for the ability to actually see my joystick and throttle, see my hands move around when I let go of them, and press "the" button in the ship I can see in front of me that controls a piece of functionality instead of trying to remember which 2-button hotkey I mapped to that function. Also, I mostly play the transport/exploration/light combat parts of Elite, I don't even need as much precision as I got in VTOL VR. In fact I comfortably did maneuvers in VTOL VR well in excess of what I've ever done in Elite.

I'm not sure what you're referring to in switching input devices. But the VTOL VR controls I'm wanting to use in Elite are all one pair of VR controllers, there is no physical switching of inputs. And if you are instead of the variety of person who does want a hybrid (i.e. physical HOTAS and virtual cockpit controls), VR gloves or leapmotion would make seamless the transition from letting go of your HOTAS, moving your hand and pressing a button, then grabbing back onto your HOTAS.

VTOL no, Ultra Wings and few other sims that support Touch, yes. I go back to HOTAS (or Yoke depending on the sim) every time. Same way I use a wheel when playing a racing sim. 99% precision is waaay over egging it. I honestly do not see the appeal with motion control support in Elite, and I do like using motion controls in other titles, they're fun. Again it's the case of using the right tool for the right job and motion control is not that tool in Elite. If there were complex start up sequences required to prep your ship for take off then I'd maybe agree, but motion controls fail at basic flight control imho other than the pressing of virtual buttons and flipping virtual switches.

Because it's been ages since you last played, you've completely forgotten all your the long list of HOTAS keybindings you had memorized and how to use them, an you just want to use an easier input method that doesn't require a bunch of unintuitive memorization?

I don't have that problem and believe me I have some very complex binds and many buttons, toggles and axis. However they were carefully bound and feel natural so even after extended periods of away time I just ease right back into it - like slipping on a glove.

Because you want to try piloting your ship the way an actual Elite Dangerous commander pilots their ship, instead of piloting the ship as someone with a display strapped to their head remote controlling a headless robot?

My hotas matches up almost 1:1 with the one in the cockpit, I really do not feel any more or any less like I have a screen strapped to my face or even 'robot like' just because I do not have motion control support. My experience is far from what you describe above.

Are you saying that the commanders in Elite would not be able to feel their controls, are able to push their hands right through them like they're made from thin air and that they offer no resistance when pushed or pulled? When I clutch at my stick in Elite I feel cold weighty metal in my hand, when I push it I feel resistance that allows me to pull off precise maneuvers and when I pull back on my throttle I can feel the smooth almost stiff action that requires a little physical exertion on my part before feeling the power of the counter thrusters thundering through my chair slowly bringing my ship to a stand still courtesy of my Buttkicker - I'd agrue that a HOTAS is both far more immersive and more realistic than what you propose.

 

[danielfriesen]

VTOL no, Ultra Wings and few other sims that support Touch, yes. I go back to HOTAS (or Yoke depending on the sim) every time. Same way I use a wheel when playing a racing sim. 99% precision is waaay over egging it.

Then you haven't actually had a chance to try the type of motion controls I am talking about. I haven't seen a single title other than VTOL VR that uses this type of input.

I am not kidding about the precision. It works very well for flying a complex aircraft or Elite ship. The way a rotational virtual joystick works with your controller planted on your leg works is very different than a translational joystick in Ultrawings.

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

Because if they are built into the game they aren't clunky overlays?
Because you don't have/want a HOTAS, you don't want to drag your HOTAS into your VR playspace just to play a relaxing mission in your ship, or your HOTAS is out for repair?
Because it's been ages since you last played, you've completely forgotten all your the long list of HOTAS keybindings you had memorized and how to use them, an you just want to use an easier input method that doesn't require a bunch of unintuitive memorization?
Because you want to be able to actually see your hands move?
Because you see all these buttons sitting right in front of you and you want to press them?
Because you want to try piloting your ship the way an actual Elite Dangerous commander pilots their ship, instead of piloting the ship as someone with a display strapped to their head remote controlling a headless robot?

Your problems are of your own making. HOTAS and voice is so obviously the optimum solution. Sad we’re at the stage where plugging in a joystick and putting in on a desk is too much trouble for some people.

 

[danielfriesen]

Your problems are of your own making. HOTAS and voice is so obviously the optimum solution. Sad we’re at the stage where plugging in a joystick and putting in on a desk is too much trouble for some people.

Optimum != only good config. Having a HOTAS setup that works good for you does not preclude the existence of other control schemes that are perfectly valid to use. Or preclude the HOTAS setup from being less than optimal for other people. e.g. HOTAS being the only/optimal setup assumes that everyone A) has a desk in their VR space they can put a HOTAS on, B) has space to store a HOTAS when not in use, and C) will get enough usage out of a HOTAS to justify it's purchase price.

Elite supports gamepad and keyboard/mouse control as well. And before I had VR the keyboard/mouse controls were quote satisfying enough to use.

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

Optimum != only good config. Having a HOTAS setup that works good for you does not preclude the existence of other control schemes that are perfectly valid to use. Or preclude the HOTAS setup from being less than optimal for other people. e.g. HOTAS being the only/optimal setup assumes that everyone A) has a desk in their VR space they can put a HOTAS on, B) has space to store a HOTAS when not in use, and C) will get enough usage out of a HOTAS to justify it's purchase price.

Elite supports gamepad and keyboard/mouse control as well. And before I had VR the keyboard/mouse controls were quote satisfying enough to use.

HOTAS and voice are so obviously the best.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Then you haven't actually had a chance to try the type of motion controls I am talking about. I haven't seen a single title other than VTOL VR that uses this type of input.

Judging from the videos I've seen it looks like all of the other motion control supported flight sims I've tried including Areofly 2 (yes I know you can 'balance' you controller on your knee..). Flipping switches and pressing buttons, all fine. Anything else just isn't as precise as a physical stick which is noted in every review I read in regard to VTOL. Do motion controls work to emulate a joysticks? Yes, in a barely passable fashion. Are they anywhere near as good at the job as a dedicated stick, even a cheap T-Hotas X? Nope, nowhere near.

Should FDEV waste time on adding flight motion control support for a extremely small percentage of an already small percentage of its playerbase? IMO more than likely not. VR performance optimization is way up the list along with better antialiasing to get rid of those horrid jaggies. Let alone and heaven forbid they fix the broken mission types removed from the game and actually try to produce some indepth game mechanics that work.

A) has a desk in their VR space they can put a HOTAS on, B) has space to store a HOTAS when not in use, and C) will get enough usage out of a HOTAS to justify it's purchase price.

Elite supports gamepad and keyboard/mouse control as well. And before I had VR the keyboard/mouse controls were quote satisfying enough to use.

A) Mount them to your chair, assuming that you do own a chair...
B) The T-Hotas X is quite small. I'm sure most people would have space to store it.
C) You purchased VR and a VR capable PC, I'm sure you can afford a cheap HOTAS (£30 or less). Clearly if you play Elite it will get use, it would only cost you £1 a day if you played for a month....

 

[TorTorden_VR]

I think it's unreasonable of FD to expect it's customers to have a pc.

They should let my play by thought control on my Samsung galaxy s6 and gear VR...

 

[danielfriesen]

Judging from the videos I've seen it looks like all of the other motion control supported flight sims I've tried including Areofly 2 (yes I know you can 'balance' you controller on your knee..). Flipping switches and pressing buttons, all fine. Anything else just isn't as precise as a physical stick which is noted in every review I read in regard to VTOL. Do motion controls work to emulate a joysticks? Yes, in a barely passable fashion. Are they anywhere near as good at the job as a dedicated stick, even a cheap T-Hotas X? Nope, nowhere near.

Do you have a video of Aerofly 2 being controlled similarly to VTOL? I'd love to see it, when I try searching all I can find is the imprecise floating hands type of control.

As someone who has actually used this type of control, I still don't buy the argument that it's only "barely passable". Anchoring the controller on your leg is not to be underestimated, not having the fatigue of having to hold your hands in mid-air and having a physical anchor to help zero the controller really make a difference.

Should FDEV waste time on adding flight motion control support for a extremely small percentage of an already small percentage of its playerbase? IMO more than likely not. VR performance optimization is way up the list along with better antialiasing to get rid of those horrid jaggies. Let alone and heaven forbid they fix the broken mission types removed from the game and actually try to produce some indepth game mechanics that work.

Yes, it would be nice to discuss how this functionality would work and how it could be implemented. But realistically it won't happen even if we ask for it. Working on making the cockpit controls work and fixing other bugs aren't exclusive, doing one doesn't stop them from also doing the other. Of course that assumes the actually care enough to fix those other bugs in the first place.

Likewise I'd happily agree to this being a feature that FDEV does 0 work on and making it work is up to the community that does want it. But I've never heard of FDEV allowing the community to work on functionality and integrating it back into the game.

[...] a extremely small percentage of an already small percentage of its playerbase?

It is worth noting that there is another perspective to think about this with. Elite Dangerous is (visually) great in VR, flying around is awesome when you have the controls for it. Every single person with a PCVR headset (save the minority that only bought a Rift without the controllers) already has the controllers needed to make virtual controls work. Very few of them have a HOTAS that will give them a good experience in Elite as it currently is. Only VR gamers who also play flight sims or are already invested enough in Elite to justify the purchase have a HOTAS. So the barrier to entry is not just the price of buying Elite Dangerous, it's also the price of buying an accessory they will only use to play that one game. It's not unreasonable to expect that having controls that work better than the gamepad controls but are available to everyone would open up the game to more players. Even a segment of those players then decided they felt like getting a HOTAS was worth it.

I can at least say from my experience that I'd play Elite more if I could seamlessly launch it from SteamVR Home and immediately start playing. Instead of having to go through the process of launching it, switching to the desktop to actually launch it, finding a controller I can't see, and fighting with the game to get it centered. I might even play it often enough to justify purchasing the additional parts of the game. Instead of just gravitating to all the other VR games in my library I can just launch and immediately start playing.

A) Mount them to your chair, assuming that you do own a chair...
B) The T-Hotas X is quite small. I'm sure most people would have space to store it.
C) You purchased VR and a VR capable PC, I'm sure you can afford a cheap HOTAS (£30 or less). Clearly if you play Elite it will get use, it would only cost you £1 a day if you played for a month....

A) Rigid frame chairs take up space and have no other use than the HOTAS mounting you suggest. I sit on a folding chair when I want to play a seated experience in my VR space. I can't mount a HOTAS to it. And I have the bare minimum needed for roomscale VR and almost no extra space. If I were to buy an extra chair just to mount a HOTAS to it, I wouldn't have enough room to play all the other VR games I play much much more than Elite.
B) I've moved to a smaller apartment. I don't even have room for all the stuff I own. I've been getting rid of things where I can. What to my understanding is an 8x14" object which is oddly shaped and doesn't stack well, doesn't sound like something very easy to store. Giving it an entire shelf doesn't make sense. All the space on top of media centers, dressers, etc... is already taken up by things that have justified their location there more than an accessory I'm only trying to "store" there.
C) I held off on buying VR for over a year and waited till I could finally budget it. I bought the parts to upgrade my PC that justified themselves by allowing me to play VR games I had waited 1+ years to play and of course the fact that most of my PC games were no longer playable because I had upgraded my TV to a 4K TV and my 780 Ti couldn't handle games in even 1080p when plugged into it. (i.e. the upgrade was well justified by making my entire Steam library run and look ridiculously better and allowing me to play dozens of games that I had stopped being able to play or never had the chance to play). I've owned Elite Dangerous since the Kickstarter (though it was initially quite some time before I had a computer I could play it with), and after all this time with or without VR still have not been able to justify buying an accessory I will only ever use to play this one game with. There are a variety of accessories that would be of more use to me than a HOTAS; the DAS I just bought, a charging dock for the Vive wands I'm keeping my eye on, and extra face covers for friends. I could buy a HOTAS I'll rarely use and will take up more of my limited space, or I could buy one of the other things on my wishlist that I will use more.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

The first video only really shows why it is a silly idea. I've even added some touch controls to my PDA app for Elite which works in a similar way via Oculus Dash i.e landing gear up / down, station menu control etc buttons - one thing I learnt was that after 5 minutes it grew old and I rarely use the feature now desipte spending some time coding it.

I'm not opposed to the overall idea in general, but with that said I wouldn't want development time diverted away from far, far more critical / long awaited new features and fixes / updates for existing ones.

In honesty montion control in Elite wouldn't get much use, just as with racing sims - you are better off using the right tool for the job. Wheels / HOTAS's are both far more precise and immersive than motion control for these types of games. Switching between input devices, even for non critical tasks is not that pleasent either.

I like when an answer is thought out, like yours, CylonSurfer. What follows is my opinion, not a fact and I respectfully disagree with yours on both the precision and immersion fronts . My view on it is slightly different than OP though, I want to get rid of HOTAS completely, not emulate it!

I used to be against and also thought HOTAS was superior. Until this one day, when I tried X-Rebirth VR. At first I tried it with HOTAS, of course, because motion controls for space sim?! Give me a break! But... the number of bindings was large and I wanted to play, so... I skipped configuring HOTAS and tried with default settings and VR controllers because why the hell not. I will do the tutorial, I will know what to bind, etc...

So I started playing. At first it was ridiculous. No, that is not precise, come on, where are you flying... Stop, not in the waaaaaall... Then the moment came: Oh wait. Wait a frikkin second. It all starts to click in... Oh my god how could I be so blind! After about five minutes, your brain adapts to new control scheme... And it's pure bliss. With Viwands + trackpads, steering your ship is like the future. HOTAS doesn't even come CLOSE. In fact I now view it as a primitive device it is... For a F18/C it is cool... but for a starship? Oh no no no. It belongs in XX century with these things called "aeroplanes".

I know, blasphemy, right? Well... no. After you make a pass along a space station structures, slaloming between pillars, making tight turns to avoid collision and doing things which should net you "reckless flying" fines, you don't wanna go back. Literally you don't. Turning, strafing - just by turning your wrists and using the trackpads (even with their current lame vive implementation), aiming your weapons using your eyes (weapon cursor can follow headset movement)... it simply becomes second nature just after a few minutes, and you're left wondering why don't all the games use it and try to imitate gamepads / joysticks... I believe the only way it can get better is the Oculus Touch version, because it allows your hand to rest naturally, whereas Vive wands require an angle.

You stay completely in control of your ship, and can pull all sorts of crazy manoeuvrers like you were born behind these controls... And the fact that you aim with your gaze (well, head), makes the only argument one might have - that HOTAS is more "precise" for aiming - moot. TBH I believe laser-tracked Viwands are more precise than HOTAS with variable resistors and springs any day, but I digress...

This video (worth watching whole, but he talks a bit about the controls in the first 2 minutes, and then later) tries to explain it. It's like with VR. You cannot explain it, you have to experience it. This guy tried XRVR with a HOTAS, and like me tested out motion controls, thinking it would be a gimmick and now he doesn't want to go back.
[video=youtube_share;LhbAvl_fdsI]https://youtu.be/LhbAvl_fdsI[/video]

Yes, I know XR is a different game and you control it through menu system, and it's not what OP really wants (because he wants interactive VR cockpit). That said, I love interactive cockpit in DCS World's F18/C Hornet. Almost makes the other not full interactive planes "unflyable" ;-) Yeah it would require heavy coding on FDev's part, an UI overhaul and a dev time which is better spend on new "exciting" features (whatever Braben is currently "excited about"). But please stay open minded. Not like the quoted posts below...

Your problems are of your own making. HOTAS and voice is so obviously the optimum solution. Sad we’re at the stage where plugging in a joystick and putting in on a desk is too much trouble for some people.
(...)
HOTAS and voice are so obviously the best.

Well, do you even have VR for starters? Have you tried different control methods? Or are you just "obviously" stating your opinion as an axiom? Sad we're back to the stage where "them cows would lose milk from all these darn railways"... Btw. I agree with OP, HOTAS is/feels clunky after flying with motion controls for a while.

I think it's unreasonable of FD to expect it's customers to have a pc.
They should let my play by thought control on my Samsung galaxy s6 and gear VR...

Amusingly, there are scientific experiments with thought controls with HTC Vive. Don't get your hopes up, we're far from real breakthrough, but real life is actually ahead of your sarcasm lol.

[video=youtube;5SVhrlyNMWU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SVhrlyNMWU[/video]

---

Bottom line: I used to be against, thinking VR controls would force me to transition from Viwands to HOTAS to Vivands to HOTAS, but it is simply not true. Proper motion controls supersede HOTAS entirely. At least I think so, but if you look on YT, there are other videos who share similar outlook. And you can even join VR controller with a joystick if you're so inclined and cannot relinquish your precious warthog or saitek Just don't be afraid to try new things.

 

[danielfriesen]

I like when an answer is thought out, like yours, CylonSurfer. What follows is my opinion, not a fact and I respectfully disagree with yours on both the precision and immersion fronts . My view on it is slightly different than OP though, I want to get rid of HOTAS completely, not emulate it!

Strictly speaking, I want all the options. If you've got a HOTAS and absolutely need that 100% precision, it's still there. But I don't, a virtual stick gives me enough precision to do all the stuff I do in ED and I love being able to just grab onto the controls I see right in front of me in the in-game cockpit. More importantly, I like being able to let go of them see my hands move around, and feel like I'm actually in the cockpit when my ship doesn't need input from me and I'm just waiting for it to travel where I've pointed it.

I used to be against and also thought HOTAS was superior. Until this one day, when I tried X-Rebirth VR. At first I tried it with HOTAS, of course, because motion controls for space sim?! Give me a break! But... the number of bindings was large and I wanted to play, so... I skipped configuring HOTAS and tried with default settings and VR controllers because why the hell not. I will do the tutorial, I will know what to bind, etc...

[...]

Interesting idea, I might get it to test that out that control scheme once it's on sale.

It would be nice if we could get an in-universe justification for the control scheme, but I'm guessing the Elite Dangerous lore is too tied to the cockpits we have. But if we accept there are already people playing with keyboard/mouse and gamepad controls that are nothing like the cockpit controls it wouldn't hurt much to have wands floating around controlling the ship like that.

Do you want to control the in-cockpit displays and station display with the wands like they are controlled in the video?

 

[danielfriesen]

;-) Yeah it would require heavy coding on FDev's part, an UI overhaul and a dev time which is better spend on new "exciting" features (whatever Braben is currently "excited about").

I really wonder how much coding it would require. I've wanted to try and break down what individual changes are needed in order to make something like this work. Though it's hard without being able to dig into the code and see how things are coupled together.

For instance. Of note is the fact that the character arms move around to match your input (which is 3-axis of movement for the right hand) and at the same time the fingers can move around on their own in an idle animation. This would suggest that the arms already have a model (which may even be separate from the controls) and they are fully rigged with the bone structure we would need to move them around.

Elite also already has a fully featured system for configuring the controls. Which can handle binding keyboard keys, mouse axis and buttons, gamepad axis and buttons, and HOTAS axis and buttons. I wonder how hard it would be to pass in inputs that come from virtual axis and buttons instead of a real input API.

Speaking of UI though. I'm surprised no-one has even tried arguing whether or not the buttons in the cockpit design actually map to ship functions and could possibly be used to control the ship if they were made virtual. Would be nice if we could find someone who knows the game's lore deep enough.

 

[Arioch]

Having tried VTOL VR I’d pop my hat in the ring for that control method in ED. I was surprised by how fine a movement I could achieve with the Touch controllers resting on my thighs - I’ve been musing that I might make some wooden pseudo HOTAS bases with concave indents in them for the controllers but probably won’t just for one game.

I think all the ED cockpit holoscreens would have to remain button navigational due to the varying distances they appear from the seat, though I would like to have those switches on the thigh pads flickable. My dream would be Lone Echo style space legs with VTOL VR flying controls buuuut...

I can’t see it ever happening in ED unless the VR user base suddenly massively increases, as in Ready Player One level of usage, so I’ll have to continue pootling along with my trusty old Xbox 360 pad

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

the ED ships all have HOTAS. The reasons listed for not owning a HOTAS seem to be rather silly. A shame we now live in an age where people need everything placed for them within arms length, so to speak, so they don’t have to move. The redlines people draw around themselves!

Every flight sim I’ve tried with motion controllers has felt disconnected and imprecise.

Also so odd that voice control get completely ignored.

 

[danielfriesen]

Having tried VTOL VR I’d pop my hat in the ring for that control method in ED. I was surprised by how fine a movement I could achieve with the Touch controllers resting on my thighs - I’ve been musing that I might make some wooden pseudo HOTAS bases with concave indents in them for the controllers but probably won’t just for one game.

Ohh, it works with Touch controllers? Have you had a chance to compare it to Vive controllers and compare whether the level of control is the same or better with the wands? One of the things I worried about was that controllers like the Touch and Knuckles that don't have that joystick like shape may not function as well.

I think all the ED cockpit holoscreens would have to remain button navigational due to the varying distances they appear from the seat, though I would like to have those switches on the thigh pads flickable. My dream would be Lone Echo style space legs with VTOL VR flying controls buuuut...

Button navigation would probably be the most in-universe way of controlling the holoscreens anyways. I'd imagine you'd just use the Vive wand's trackpad or Touch's joystick to control the screens, while your hand is on the joystick. Pretending that you are interacting with the buttons on the top of the in-cockpit joystick (which is how I assume an in-universe ED commander would actually control those screens). Have you used the joystick buttons in VTOL VR to control the targeting camera yet?

But strictly speaking if you don't care about that and just want comfortable controls, even if the screens are too far away with varying distances it would still be possible to give them laser pointer controls. Those are still very common in VR and everyone is used to them.

In fact on that topic, we should definitely pair this with an update to the game menus to allow pointing at the menu to control it.

Every flight sim I’ve tried with motion controllers has felt disconnected and imprecise.

Did those imprecise controls work well enough to comfortably enjoy flying a cargo or exploration run? But seriously, have you had a chance to compare those to the VTOL VR controls we are discussing? I can understand translational joysticks like those in Ultrawings, sticks in non flight sim games like ISS, and those tacked onto a flight sim especially if it's not a joystick based craft all being imprecise. Those motion controls are vastly different than this control scheme we're discussing.

Also so odd that voice control get completely ignored.

Because voice control is awesome and useful no matter what control scheme you use. Whether you use keyboard, gamepad, HOTAS, a VTOL VR style in-cockpit stick, or a X Rebirth VR style control scheme voice controls are still useful. But you can't control a ship with voice alone (well you could, but it would be pretty awkward to control a ship continuously with commands like "pitch up"), so you still need another control scheme to go with it. And even if you bind a lot to voice commands, there are still a few commands you'll probably still want to bind to a gamepad button, HOTAS button, or in-cockpit virtual button.

I expect plenty of us using virtual cockpit would still make use of voice controls. ^_^ in fact it would probably fit in quite well, mics are built into the VR HMDs and it'll probably feel like you're giving orders to the in-ship computer.