Modes Reworking the game modes

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...o-further-abuses-of-BGS-and-Powerplay/?page=1

The beauty of the modes "shines" again.
Basically people created bots to undermine a PF from SOLO, something went wrong and those bots emerged to Open and were noticed by the PF.

If not for this error in their scripting, the bots would still be undermining in SOLO and the poor PF members would have no proof of the cheats. Amazing.
Who knows what else is going on in SOLO, how many bots and other mischief is going on without anyone noticing while directly manipulating player owned property.

Needless to say the PF lost control of their faction.

How were they manipulating player owned property? Were they spreading viral code onto their personal computers or consoles?

I ask because THERE IS NO PLAYER OWNED PROPERTY IN ELITE - nor will there ever be such as the last to leave any given instance reduces it to bits in a database on their way out. Without persistence there can be no individual ownership.
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
How were they manipulating player owned property? Were they spreading viral code onto their personal computers or consoles?

I ask because THERE IS NO PLAYER OWNED PROPERTY IN ELITE - nor will there ever be such as the last to leave any given instance reduces it to bits in a database on their way out. Without persistence there can be no individual ownership.

PF is an in game property. Payers work together to keep influence high, expand into other systems etc. People invest their time, it is as close as we are going to get to base building.
 
PF is an in game property. Payers work together to keep influence high, expand into other systems etc. People invest their time, it is as close as we are going to get to base building.

Time investment does not confer ownership. Earlier this same thread it was pointed out that PF are nothing more than NPC BGS Factions - owned, managed, governed, controlled, and implemented by the Game itself and fully subject and answerable wholly to the BGS.

If we were to accept your logic, then I should be able to claim ownership of Microsoft as I worked there for several years - somehow I think we will both find ourselves sorely disappointed...
 
PF is an in game property. Payers work together to keep influence high, expand into other systems etc. People invest their time, it is as close as we are going to get to base building.


So... in that case ships are property, people invest a LOT of time into them and we already know how you don't give a flying anything about that. So now you are all up in arms about "People investing their time"? Horse hockey... all you care about is trying to use something and twist it for your own agenda.
 
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...o-further-abuses-of-BGS-and-Powerplay/?page=1

The beauty of the modes "shines" again.
Basically people created bots to undermine a PF from SOLO, something went wrong and those bots emerged to Open and were noticed by the PF.

If not for this error in their scripting, the bots would still be undermining in SOLO and the poor PF members would have no proof of the cheats. Amazing.
Who knows what else is going on in SOLO, how many bots and other mischief is going on without anyone noticing while directly manipulating player owned property.

Needless to say the PF lost control of their faction.
I have analysed this problem, and I conclude that the problem in that scenario is bots. Not modes.

Next: I dropped my icecream, damn those modes!!
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
PF is an in game property. Payers work together to keep influence high, expand into other systems etc. People invest their time, it is as close as we are going to get to base building.

*If* a PF is an in game property (and I don't agree that it is - as players have no control whatsoever over a Faction inserted at their request) then it necessarily follows that players of all play-styles would own PFs - so they cannot be locked to Open (as not all players who have PFs inserted in the game play in Open).
 
Modes are fine as they are, solo being the most subscribed may have more to do with a vast number of players seeing elite as a PVE game from the start, as i do, if it had been released as an MMO i would not have even bought it. so leave it alone ED is not eve online so get over it and curb your delusions of grandeur.

Also best face the fact that from a financial standpoint if frontier were going to cut modes open will be the first to go.
 
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*If* a PF is an in game property (and I don't agree that it is - as players have no control whatsoever over a Faction inserted at their request) then it necessarily follows that players of all play-styles would own PFs - so they cannot be locked to Open (as not all players who have PFs inserted in the game play in Open).

Hmm, if they are player owned prooperties, can then I demand people hiding in Open not be able to affect my faction's BGS? :p
 
There's a lot I agree with you, but I personally believe that the fact there's no reason to PvP besides for the fun of it IS part of the problem, because that kind of PvP lacks context. Frontier has gone to a lot of trouble creating a Universe where the Pilots Federation fight the shadow wars of the various factions in Human Space, from the cold war between the Empire and the Federation, to two mega-corporations taking the concept of "hostile take-over" to a whole new level. It is only natural for some players to choose a side, and then want to face players on the opposite side of the fence.

It is that lack of context that, in part, creates a perception of griefing... even if in the attacker's mind they're attacking a legitimate target. It's also why when I go marauding, I'm careful to establish context, even if it means someone might get away. It is also the reason why I enjoyed the PvP encounters I had in Powerplay, even if I didn't enjoy the ways to earn merits: those hostile encounters I had with other players had context. I knew why they were attacking me, and they knew why I was in the system. Even if we didn't exchange words, the fact that we were pledged to opposing sides, and knew it, made all the difference.

It is why any proposal I have to enhance PvP starts with allowing players to pledge allegiance to a faction, whether its a minor faction or a Superpower (or declare themselves a pirate.) I would also add the option to declare enmity towards a faction as well. Even if nothing else comes of it, besides flagging other players (and NPCs, for the PvE crowd) as hostile to you, I think it would go a long way towards reducing the perceived amount of griefing in Open.

I mean, which scenario* is better:

"You're making a supply run for the People's Congress of ABC123, a Federation faction that's in charge. As you're flying along, an unknown Pilots' Federation ship approaches you from behind. You have no idea why they're there: they may be moving to attack you, or they could be simply traveling in the same direction. Suddenly, an interdiction tether engulfs your ship. You still don't know what's going on: are they pirates who can be appeased with your cargo? Are they someone who supports the Imperial Party of ABC123? Are they some murder hobo who just wants to kill you for the LOLs? You don't know, and that lack of knowledge causes you to delay several seconds, as the possibilities run through your head. By the time you react, you're already under fire. Ten seconds later, you're dead."

or

"You're making a supply run for the People's Congress for ABC123, a Federation Faction that's in charge. Suddenly, a Pilots' Federation ship, glowing in a malevolent red on your scanner and HUD, approaches you from behind. You instantly start to take evasive action, because you know they're after you. As you try to keep them off your six, you select them, in an effort to identify them. You see they're supporters of the Imperial Party of ABC123, who have been rising in influence over the last two weeks. You now know if they catch you, they'll try to kill you, so you better make sure they don't catch you."

_____________
* With the usual caveat: players are still allowed to play in the mode that suits them best, and there are no bonuses or penalties for choosing one mode over another.

I just want to comment this before I dig all the stuff in this thread....

No, your solution would sadly not solve anything.

Why? Because people will be people. Your second scenario would STILL have the murderhobo come and blow you up. Hell, it might be "blue" who just comes and shoots you for fun. "KEKEKEKEKE!!!! GIT GUD! TEAR HARVEST WOOOO!!!"

Reason I say so? Because I have played these games for a quite long time. This murderhobo attutyde is not going to go away by giving "Factions" to belong to. They will not spare the friendly if there is cheap kills to be had.
I still remember quite well the days around beginning of millenium when I played CS. I tried to avoid Friendly Fire = on-servers like plague. Why? Because quite often you would find someone come into server, start the round and empty his gun at the heads of his teammates at spawn. He did not gain anything from it, quite the opposite. That round was lost when usually 2, maybe 3 team members were down and dead before round had properly started.

Yet it kept happening. If people have ability to be murderhobo, there is non-insignificant portion who will do so.
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
Wrong, it is still owned and run by NPCs and exists in all modes, like the rest of the NPC stuff.

Just because you got to name it, doesn't make it yours.

Its yours in a sense that you put time in it. You have to fight to keep it yours, but cheaters can unfairly undermine (using bots and other means).

When you cheat in SOLO like in the case above, there is noone to report you, and you get away with it. In the case of the bots, they came to Open and only then were identified.
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
*If* a PF is an in game property (and I don't agree that it is - as players have no control whatsoever over a Faction inserted at their request) then it necessarily follows that players of all play-styles would own PFs - so they cannot be locked to Open (as not all players who have PFs inserted in the game play in Open).

If they can attack other PF they should be in OPEN regardless.
 
So...if we got rid of OPEN then the terms Undermining, Espionage, Subversion, and Skullduggery would once again revert back to their original meanings (as activities one by definition performs in secret​0 and the problem would be fixed...Right?
 
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ALGOMATIC

Banned
So...if we got rid of OPEN then the terms Undermining, Espionage, Subversion, and Skullduggery would once again revert back to their original meanings (as activities one by definition performs in secret​0 and the problem would be fixed...Right?

Or.. we can force PF to be in OPEN, will solve the above issues without removing any modes.
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
If they can attack other PF they should be in OPEN regardless.

That's not the way that it works in this game - as has been obvious from the beginning with the existence of three game modes and single shared galaxy state.

Especially noting Michael Brookes' statement on the subject.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
thats it, fully agree. anything else is fighting without honor

Actually, it's "fighting", through the single shared galaxy state, by design, without needing to engage in a completely optional minority* play-style (also by design).

*: given that one Dev is on record as stating that Frontier are well aware that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP.
 
So...if we got rid of OPEN then the terms Undermining, Espionage, Subversion, and Skullduggery would once again revert back to their original meanings (as activities one by definition performs in secret​0 and the problem would be fixed...Right?
No need to be so drastic. Since BGS and Powerplay are PvE activities, it's just these activities that should be taken away from Open. Then no one in Open would ever again have an issue with players influencing their PMFs from other modes.

Since router settings and block lists could still be used in Open if you'd make those Open only, the above solution is the most effective one.
 
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