Same old song about cheaters

[Asp Explorer]

Utter toolishness is incredibly popular these days, sadly.

 

[BROKEN SHADOW]

I have over 2800 hrs in game and I've never been killed by another player or a wing of players, have never combat logged. It's much easier to just run and escape.

 

[Riverside]

I have over 2800 hrs in game and I've never been killed by another player or a wing of players, have never combat logged. It's much easier to just run and escape.

I think most players take this attitude, they just deal with the consequences of their actions by either recognising that they aren't going to want to deal with that particular kind of challenge or simply taking it on & accepting that they may lose to the better player.


I wanted to have a look at the ancient ruins earlier. I generally play in Open, and I explore in a Corvette, so I went there. On the last jump before the target system I mulled over what sort of situation I would be jumping into. Am I prepared to lose the hull today? It's not unusual for me to drop to solo if I don't want to deal with the hassle, and my reason for going wasn't to interact with others (in fact I wanted to see the site as-spawned) so i went in Solo. I could have gone in Open & dealt with whatever came up, but I just couldn't be bothered today.

But then my gameplay doesn't require others to play with me, although it often adds to it.

 

[veryinky]

And if someone unpleasant decides to disconnect the attacking player from their instance for teh lulz - who then gets the fine?

This is a flaw of FD's use of peer to peer networking for player instancing. Many of the more infamous "PvP"ers already monitor network traffic to find their prey, giving them incentive to [unpleasantly surprise] other players in a more indirect but more punishing way? Bad idea.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

And if someone unpleasant decides to disconnect the attacking player from their instance for teh lulz - who then gets the fine?

My suggestion was that the fine only applies to the disconnected player if they are losing (less hull), so would there be any incentive to disconnect your opponent if they are already losing the battle?

Edit: To answer my own question, if the person is a <expletive> then yes they would do it out of spite if their opponent is about to jump. All I can say to that is that I hope the ability to disconnect your opponent is something that only a tiny number of ED players has been able to exploit. It's obviously a FAR more serious exploit than the topic of this thread.

 

[veryinky]

My suggestion was that the fine only applies to the disconnected player if they are losing (less hull), so would there be any incentive to disconnect your opponent if they are already losing the battle?

To make them pay 99% of rebuy instead of 5%?

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Note that my proposal was a percentage of the insurance, not the rebuy. That is, the fine is somewhere between 0% and 5% of the full rebuy.

It means that if you have the ability to disconnect your opponent (a damn serious exploit, FD!) then they choose whether they want to try for the kill to make them pay the full 5%, or disconnect them and make them pay 0-5%.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Now that someone has highlighted this very serious exploit - being able to disconnect your opponent, can someone point me to threads that discuss this?

 

[IndigoWyrd]

You'll probably be dead far before that.

Unlikely, since I'd have the function queued before ever jumping to SC in the first place - so one button tap to submit, two button taps to trigger. It seems unlikely that even 8A Thrusters with a perfect 5G Dirty Drive tuning mod would be able to close the to firing range in time.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

Well I think Combat logging can be cut down pretty much by a lot once mode invasion gets solved. After all the root cause of most Combat logging is unwanted PvP. So solve the mode invasion (unwanted PvP) "cheating". And you can pretty much solve Combat logging.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Combat logging is rampant in open play. How the **** is "mode invasion" to blame for this?

I'll give you an example. At the previous combat CG I flew around looking for large targets to test my new gunship build against, and have been doing the same thing for my new Corvette build at the Maia combat CG. Here's a list of what I found and what happened:

Dangerous Corvette - combat logged
Master Anaconda - combat logged
Dangerous Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Corvette - combat logged (well-known logger)
Dangerous Anaconda - combat logged
Dangerous Corvette (first opponent again) - combat logged
Deadly Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Anaconda (same one) - combat logged
Dangerous Anaconda - actually highwaked out after a good fight
Deadly Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Corvette - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter (same one) - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter (same one again) - combat logged
Master Anaconda - combat logged
Master Corvette - combat logged

Then a master courier and his competent FDL wingmate pulled me and had a go. Still obviously new to PvP but they seemed pretty cool, so I winged up with them and taught them a heap of stuff.

I have all these encounters on video if you would like to see them. Again, please tell me how "mode invasion" is responsible for this.

P.S.: It is also interesting to note that most Combat logging salt threads are brought up by players associated with known and self-declared, mode invading, griefer ganking groups.

It doesn't matter who posts what. Combat logging is cheating, period.
I've been ganked countless times in open but I always either:

1. Bring my own wing in to fight back
2. Attack a player in the gank wing and secure a kill before leaving
3. Highwake out

That's it. Zero excuses for cheating, no matter how much you might want to justify it.

 

[sutex]

That's it. Zero excuses for cheating, no matter how much you might want to justify it.

YEP !


https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...and-Mission-Mat-Storage?p=4703927#post4703927

 

[[VR] Merkir]

I'll give you an example. At the previous combat CG I flew around looking for large targets to test my new gunship build against, and have been doing the same thing for my new Corvette build at the Maia combat CG. Here's a list of what I found and what happened:

Dangerous Corvette - combat logged
Master Anaconda - combat logged
Dangerous Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Corvette - combat logged (well-known logger)
Dangerous Anaconda - combat logged
Dangerous Corvette (first opponent again) - combat logged
Deadly Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Anaconda (same one) - combat logged
Dangerous Anaconda - actually highwaked out after a good fight
Deadly Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Corvette - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter (same one) - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter (same one again) - combat logged
Master Anaconda - combat logged
Master Corvette - combat logged

Then a master courier and his competent FDL wingmate pulled me and had a go. Still obviously new to PvP but they seemed pretty cool, so I winged up with them and taught them a heap of stuff.

I'm curious. How many of those opponents Combat Logged with hull damage? What do you guess was the average hull damage across all of them?

(I'm wondering if my suggestion for the "Lost Ship Fine" would have worked well or poorly in this situation.)

 

[QUASAR-M]

I wonder actually if, to quote the OP " is there even any chance that fdev will solve the problem of" PVP? The only unfair thing is that PvP has no reward or risk whatsoever. It should be restricted to CQC with your ship/ build until this is fixed. I want to get engaged in PvP but why? Just to what? What do I gain? Right now in my book ganking is ok, combat logging is ok, everything is ok in this joke of PvP, because all of these are symptoms. The game is just fine in SOLO and PRIVATE. OPEN is just to refresh the mission board.

The honest CMDRs should refrain from using OPEN (and combat logging), leaving only the gankers in there, to shoot each other. The game is beautiful in SOLO and PRIVATE but the PvP side is a bad joke right now.

 

[Falcon_D]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Combat logging is rampant in open play. How the **** is "mode invasion" to blame for this?

I'll give you an example. At the previous combat CG I flew around looking for large targets to test my new gunship build against, and have been doing the same thing for my new Corvette build at the Maia combat CG. Here's a list of what I found and what happened:

Dangerous Corvette - combat logged
Master Anaconda - combat logged
Dangerous Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Corvette - combat logged (well-known logger)
Dangerous Anaconda - combat logged
Dangerous Corvette (first opponent again) - combat logged
Deadly Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Anaconda (same one) - combat logged
Dangerous Anaconda - actually highwaked out after a good fight
Deadly Anaconda - combat logged
Deadly Corvette - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter (same one) - combat logged
Dangerous Cutter (same one again) - combat logged
Master Anaconda - combat logged
Master Corvette - combat logged

Then a master courier and his competent FDL wingmate pulled me and had a go. Still obviously new to PvP but they seemed pretty cool, so I winged up with them and taught them a heap of stuff.

I have all these encounters on video if you would like to see them. Again, please tell me how "mode invasion" is responsible for this.



It doesn't matter who posts what. Combat logging is cheating, period.
I've been ganked countless times in open but I always either:

1. Bring my own wing in to fight back
2. Attack a player in the gank wing and secure a kill before leaving
3. Highwake out

That's it. Zero excuses for cheating, no matter how much you might want to justify it.

Ahh... I see, the famous Rinzler.

However, I do agree with you on only one thing. Combat logging in OPEN is not a good thing.

Seems this is still apt:

P.S.: It is also interesting to note that most Combat logging salt threads are brought up by players associated with known and self-declared, mode invading, griefer ganking groups.

And I hope that your:

That's it. Zero excuses for cheating, no matter how much you might want to justify it.

Applies to accepting the rules of a group to join it, and then turning around and blatantly disregarding those rules using weak justifications to do so.

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

A Corvette is landed at the alien excavation site, AFK.
Cutter arrives, full combat loadout, lands on surface.

Corvette awakens and attacks the Cutter. Cutter combat logs, goes to solo and moves a few KM away from the site, then switches to open and ambushes the Corvette from a quick boost attack.

Corvette fights him back, Cutter is losing, combat logs again, while screaming "     you griefer".

A cheater is a cheater. Whatever the other player did to you, you're always dropping yourself even lower by combat logging.

Combat logging < any other action you could have done

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

I'm curious. How many of those opponents Combat Logged with hull damage? What do you guess was the average hull damage across all of them?

(I'm wondering if my suggestion for the "Lost Ship Fine" would have worked well or poorly in this situation.)

It really varies. Let's take the dangerous corvette and dangerous cutter as two examples:

The vette dropped from supercruise and started flying in a straight line while waiting for the 15s timer to run out, so I was able to zero his powerplant and bring his hull to 52% before he disappeared.
The cutter used a logoffski script/taskkill macro instantly after he was interdicted each time, so there wasn't even any shield damage.

Most of the others resort to taskkilling when they discover that their low-wake attempt is being masslocked, and usually disappear just before or after their shields drop, depending on whether they menu log or taskkill.

YEP !


https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...and-Mission-Mat-Storage?p=4703927#post4703927

That's a really interesting thread. I'm guessing the moderation team here went through it and replaced every instance of the term "combat log" to "combat escaping(log)"?
They tend do to that for some reason (no idea why they're so pedantic about it, and it isn't a censorable term on here according to the forum rules either)

No amount of mental gymnastics will change the fact that logging out in combat = combat logging. It's a fact.

Seems this is still apt

Complaints about PvP combat logging are usually going to come from PvP players.
If Frontier introduced a mechanic where NPC's disappeared 15s after anyone aggro'd them, then I bet the entire forum would be in uproar over it.

Every PvP group hates combat logging. Even groups like AA (newbie killers love to combat log when they're getting killed).

And I hope that your <quote> applies to accepting the rules of a group to join it, and then turning around and blatantly disregarding those rules using weak justifications to do so.

This is a whole different kettle of fish that isn't going to do this thread any good. I will say though: a private group's "rules" are not covered by any sort of ToS; it is merely an agreement between its members. There are no terms and conditions to accept upon joining said groups, hence its rules cannot be enforced by Frontier. The onus is on the group's owner.
However, the new harassment rules do apply when people who have been kicked from said group re-apply with alt accounts.

 

[Comrade Error]

Unlikely, since I'd have the function queued before ever jumping to SC in the first place - so one button tap to submit, two button taps to trigger. It seems unlikely that even 8A Thrusters with a perfect 5G Dirty Drive tuning mod would be able to close the to firing range in time.

Maybe with G5 mods but you realize self destruct is on a 30 second counter that disables everything on your ship when initiated.

 

[Riverside]

A Corvette is landed at the alien excavation site, AFK.
Cutter arrives, full combat loadout, lands on surface.

Corvette awakens and attacks the Cutter. Cutter combat logs, goes to solo and moves a few KM away from the site, then switches to open and ambushes the Corvette from a quick boost attack.

Corvette fights him back, Cutter is losing, combat logs again, while screaming "     you griefer".

A cheater is a cheater. Whatever the other player did to you, you're always dropping yourself even lower by combat logging.

Combat logging < any other action you could have done

I'd agree with that. What do you think your hypothetical Corvette Cmdr's reason for attacking the Cutter was? The Cutter presumably could have taken the initiative on first approach & chose not to. Why do you suppose that might have been?

 

[lecorsobreton]

They should use the same method as in Star Conflict: if you combat log, you get locked out of the game for 30 minutes.

 

[Comrade Error]

Personally I've seen people misinterpret Strawman quiet a lot in this forums and have their own opinion of what it means based on how the look at an argument as seen in the case above.

If the people who cheated them are complaining then I assume there is something wrong here and I doubt it's Combat logging related.

As for mode invasion, that's where most most unwanted PvP occurs. And as I said unwanted PvP is basically the root cause of most combat logging. If the OP was only talking about Open and how to solve CL in open fine. But solving this kind of problem affects both Open and Group.

OP is correct. Combat logging is cheating even in solo.

What?

OP wasn't talking about combat logging and how to fix it at all by the looks of it. Oh and I can give you cold hard evidence for mode invasion NOT being the root cause of CL. On xbox we don't have any major PvE groups hell, we didn't even have groups for a long time and guess what.. Combat logging was still a major issue and I can provide a montage if you want.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

Its not a black and white area because some players (whether you agree or not) define griefing as an unprovoked attack with player exploiting the weak crime and punishment system. Now it may well be that Combat Logging is the greater crime but until you address what another player believes to be wrong as well you can't very well expect FDev to go take heavy measures against them. To complicate things further you'll also get:
- PvP players who will claim the same whilst actually being quite prepared to fight whilst things are going their way
- players who legitimately CTD (cos the that does tend to happen more in busy periods)
- players who loose network comms either by fair or foul means, complex topic
- arbitration of events if a player is reported
- use of smack talk in chat
- instancing aggressive PvP players against one another
- instancing combat loggers with one another
- Open play coming with greater risks but no greater reward

You can debate the topic until the cows come home, nothing will change without FDev actively intervening at the game level and taking away the motivation for combat logging it doesn't matter who is right or wrong it is simply the behaviour of gamers.