Samsung Odyssey+ vs. Valve Index

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

Hey guys,

I have a few questions about the O+ vs. the Index. I'm currently using the O+, and I don't have any other HMDs to compare it with, so I'd like to ask you for some input. I've already read [this] and [that], but I'd rather hear about the impressions of users with more focus on Elite Dangerous specifically. It would be great if there were some people who own both HMDs and could talk about the differences.

Basically, given my preferences, I'd like to know whether going from the O+ to the Index is a viable upgrade path.

What I'm not overly interested in and things the O+ is already doing well enough for me:

• Any other games aside from Elite Dangerous
• Roomscale VR
• Tracking; O+ is WMR, but I can deal with that.
• FOV; O+ is not "good", but good enough for me.
• Sweet spot; Same as with FOV.
• >90Hz; Don't need it.

What I absolutely am interested in, sorted from most to least important:

1. More sharpness/detail, meaning text readability, texture detail of planets a bit farther away, etc. Not just a bigger sweetspot, but more detail per angle.
2. Removable earphones; I really, really, really want to start using my Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro instead; I absolutely need to be well-isolated from outside noise!
3. Black levels; I'm afraid of going for an expensive headset only to be disappointed by those.
4. SDE; I can't compare with any other HMDs as said, but it appears to me that the O+'s panel coating is doing a really good job removing the SDE.
5. IPD adjustment; I'm at ~62mm. Index has hardware adjustment like O+, so that's a non-issue.

I'm not overly concerned with cost, but I don't want to be completely disappointed either. It appears the SDE on the Index is negligible, so that shouldn't be an issue I assume? What I'm most interested in is more image clarity and detail, and I'm reading mixed reports about that. Some peope say it's about the same, while some people say that the Index is much better in that department, so I'm not sure what to believe.

Also: Why no HP Reverb? I'm afraid of all the issues that have been reported (panel failure, cable coming off, and other things) plus I'm fixated on Radeons for GPUs right now, and until Navi 21/23 come out, I won't have the GPU power to drive the Reverb.

Thank you very much for any input you may be able to provide!

 

[aXeL]

I had the same question as you and have the O+ which has really hurt my eyes so I stopped using it. The Index is basically the same 'official' resolution as the O+ and also uses a diffusion grating ( which I hate because, on the O+ at least, it smudges the distance view in Skyrim ). However, I gather that the Index uses LCD which means having the full complement of RGB sub-pixels unlike the O+ where there is only a green element for each pixel while the red and blue are shared by adjacent pixels, halving their resolution. So, Index should be reasonably better clarity than the O+ but I wouldn't fork out for any headset which has a diffusion grating after the pain I had from the O+.

Reverb. HP recalled the device because of all the problems you mentioned. The fixed version has since gone back on sale. To know you're ordering a fixed version, ask for model number beginning VR1000-200. The borked ones model number begins VR1000-100. I'm ordering mine as soon as my credit card is cleared from buying new glasses ( bloody O+ )! Doesn't need a diffuser, is full LCD RGB but 2160x2160 per eye unlike the 1600x1440 of the O+ and 1440x1600 Index, Reverb has 114deg FOV unlike the O+ 110 but less than 130deg for the Index. Reverb can run ED with 'VR Low' at 90Hz or 'VR High' at 60Hz on a 1080 ( No idea on the comparable Radeon though, sorry ).

 

[VR - wickfut]

1. More sharpness/detail, meaning text readability, texture detail of planets a bit farther away, etc. Not just a bigger sweetspot, but more detail per angle.
   [*]Removable earphones; I really, really, really want to start using my Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro instead; I absolutely need to be well-isolated from outside noise!
   [*]Black levels; I'm afraid of going for an expensive headset only to be disappointed by those.
   [*]SDE; I can't compare with any other HMDs as said, but it appears to me that the O+'s panel coating is doing a really good job removing the SDE.
   [*]IPD adjustment; I'm at ~62mm. Index has hardware adjustment like O+, so that's a non-issue.

1. Get a Reverb. It's like looking at a monitor.
2. Get a Reverb. You can take them off and plug headphones into the little dangly wire.
3. LCD black levels will disappoint you a hell of a lot. I don't want to say you get used to it - because you don't (and I cry each time Elite starts and I see the ty grey blacks during the splash screens) . But that resolution, once you've seen Elite at 3kx3k SS you won't want to go back to any other headset.
4. Get a Reverb. The SDE is similar to the O+ but everything is pin sharp.
5. Get a Reverb. Mine is 63, I leave it as default.

Also: Why no HP Reverb? I'm afraid of all the issues that have been reported (panel failure, cable coming off, and other things) plus I'm fixated on Radeons for GPUs right now, and until Navi 21/23 come out, I won't have the GPU power to drive the Reverb.

So you want to go for a much more expensive headset with a poorer screen? Just get a reverb and don't do supersampling. Use the same res as the Odyssey on the demanding games and knock the resolution right up on the less taxing games. New batch of Reverbs don't have the issues of the pre-order batch.

OR spend £1000, for a worse screen than you have, on an index just so you can give the middle finger in a handful of video games which support finger tracking

 

[aXeL]

Props to you wickfut, your confidence in the Reverb is getting me excited. However, are the blacks really that bad? The only reason I contemplate a question against that ( with absolutely no personal experience ) is that I was watching YT earlier on a Reverb review, compared with O+, VPro etc. and the guy said that the blacks are just not a problem at all. Maybe just different standards though, yours being higher I guess.

 

[VR - wickfut]

with an O+ , there is no difference between looking at the inside plastic of the headset and looking at a black screen. In an LCD headset it's clearly quite a few notches set higher into mid grey territory.

On this grey scale. An OLED headset black is the far right blackest black. An LCD headset, on a screen with nothing else or very little brightness - say looking away from the splash screen when Elite starts or looking at the floor in your cockpit etc, the black levels look to be around the 3rd shade to the left. On a screen which is lit the high contrast makes the grey look black, but in dark games like Elite it can look very grey.

As for my confidence in the Reverb, it's getting sold the moment an OLED headset comes out with a similar resolution.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

Thank you very much for your replies! I guess I might just wait until new GPUs come out. My card at its current settings (+50% PT with slightly lowered GPU voltage) should be roughly the same speed as a 1080, maybe a bit higher. But probably not 1080Ti level. And then, after buying a faster GPU, I get the Reverb in the hope that I won't hate the black levels....

In the meantime I got a little crazy and wrote an eMail to the Prague office of VRgineers to learn more about their (insanely expensive) XTAL headset. But they haven't replied yet.

 

[aXeL]

In the meantime I got a little crazy and wrote an eMail to the Prague office of VRgineers to learn more about their (insanely expensive) XTAL headset. But they haven't replied yet.

Have you heard anything yet?

Got my Reverb arriving tomorrow so be interesting to do an apples to apples comparison with my O+ After wickfut's warnings about the blacks I've a little bit of trepidation though.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

No. I will try to contact one of their other offices. I thought it would be best to contact their HQ directly, but maybe not. Maybe using English was the problem? Although I doubt that. I might try their L.A. office next.

Please do let us know about your experience with the Reverb, I'm very much interested in hearing as many opinions as possible, especially from O+ users.

Edit: Mail sent. This time from my University email address, maybe it looks a bit more official this way.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

Alright, VRgineers have now replied to my enquiry.

I asked the following questions (I originally asked in a more elaborate fashion, but it boils down to this):

1. Do they support AMD Radeon cards, or only NVidia cards?
2. Is SteamVR truly fully supported?
3. Will the 70Hz refresh rate pose any problems? (60Hz on my O+ is horrible and pains my eyes like an old 60Hz CRT)
4. Are the OLED panels pentile or full RGB?
5. Are their distortion problems still there, as pointed out in at least one review?

And here are VRgineer's answers:

1. No support for AMD cards at the moment, but it's planned for the future (will ask whether they mean "untested" or "currently impossible").
2. Yes, there is full support for SteamVR, not just SteamVR tracking.
3. Might be a (very) slight issue for fast-paced shooters, but not for sims. This is according to customer feedback (Unspecified individual persons and certain renowned, large organizations were named as sources, though I won't say which ones, not sure if they would like me leaking such information).
4. The XTAL's OLED panels have a full RGB subpixel matrix (I applaud that!!!).
5. According to current customer feedback there seem to be no distortion problems to speak of. The algorithms for warping the image to compensate for the lenses are a matter of ongoing optimization.

 

[aXeL]

OLED Full RGB? Between that and aspheric lenses, now we know where the EUR5000 ( or GBP6000 lol ) goes. Why can't everyone just do better lenses which cover more of the panel - same as XTAL. Reverb with XTAL concept lenses would be fantastic.

Got my Reverb. I'll say this for Microsoft, that WMR stuff just works for me. No installing anything - just unplugged my O+, plugged in my Reverb and all happy straight away - although there was no audio in ED ( audio in the Cliffhouse though so the headset works... ) And I had to dig around to find the IPD settings.

 

[Wildcat67]

OLED Full RGB? Between that and aspheric lenses, now we know where the EUR5000 ( or GBP6000 lol ) goes. Why can't everyone just do better lenses which cover more of the panel - same as XTAL. Reverb with XTAL concept lenses would be fantastic.

Got my Reverb. I'll say this for Microsoft, that WMR stuff just works for me. No installing anything - just unplugged my O+, plugged in my Reverb and all happy straight away - although there was no audio in ED ( audio in the Cliffhouse though so the headset works... ) And I had to dig around to find the IPD settings.

How are you finding the Reverb with ED? I have one arriving tomorrow...

 

[aXeL]

Definitely a step change from the O+ Yes, there still SDE but it's not intrusive. Here's a weird thing. Any sort of SS or HMD above 1.0x just detracts from the crispness of the image for me. Strange huh! There are some jaggies on those settings but it feels like any sort of minor/major SS/HMD smoothing just looks less desirable than 1.0x for my eyes. Maybe I'll tinker with SteamVR resolution ( been on 100% only for ages ) or with NVidia DSR ( never touched it ).

The issue of LCD blacks isn't bothering me in the slightest. Didn't notice it at all until I remembered what others said then I was kind of like, "Oh yeah, I guess so" and then promptly forgot about it.

Anyone want a Samsung O+? It's already in the back of the wardrobe

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

What can you say about the size of the sweetspot in comparison to the O+?

 

[VR - wickfut]

it's a lot smaller, and made worse by the weight of the cable moving the headset about.

 

[aXeL]

it's a lot smaller, and made worse by the weight of the cable moving the headset about.

100% what wickfut says IMO. With the O+ I usually spent a moment or two fiddling when I first put the headset on. With the HP I spend quite a while fiddling. TBH I don't know if I eventually get it right or if I'm just giving up and adjusting naturally. Surprised though because I thought the HP would be better.

I think the sweet spot width is good but the height is bad. Wickfut, what do you reckon?

 

[VR - wickfut]

I think it's down to the O+ was a gradual blur towards the edges. With the Reverb it tends to go into chromatic aberration quickly which makes it look a bit more noticeable. I guess with the software IPD spacing not helping either if your eyes aren't a correct fit at the centre of the lens.

 

[aXeL]

Just did a quick check on the XTAL vs Reverb. The Reverb has 27% more pixels per panel than the XTAL. Obviously the XTAL has a much higher FOV at 180deg vs 114 for the Reverb and it has aspheric lenses which cover a larger portion of the panel than for other headsets, likely the reason for the better FOV. Ergo two points of potential contention:

1. Is the XTAL better than the Reverb? Maybe. Is it '~8x the price' better than the Reverb? Personal view - The price point specifically makes the Reverb an XTAL killer.

2. Aspheric lenses solve so many problems. Larger panel coverage = wider FOV, less zoom ( ergo less SDE ), no aberration. Why isn't everyone using them? VRgineers proved they work... with VR... in Windows. Aspheric lenses have been around forever and they're cheap. That said, I am assuming that the fresnel lens used by, I presume, everyone else, is based on a spherical lens. This may not be the case.

Will Microsoft just hurry up and buy VRgineers already and make the XTAL lens approach part of the WMR compliance standard - then we're all set and no-one will be paying EUR5000 for a headset because all the really big vendors with cheap manufacturing will be competing.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

The issue with VRgineers is that they're simply not focused on gaming or end users at all. Those companies (car makers, aerospace companies, space agencies) probably really don't mind paying 5000€ per HMD. As far as I understood them (and I got that part from public interviews, not from my correspondence with them), it would be risky for them to enter the retail market.

On top of that, VRgineers is a private company, so Microsoft can't just do a hostile takeover.

In the meantime, I've received another reply from them. They say, that AMD Radeon cards are truly 100% unsupported. They tested them and they don't work, apparently because of some missing features. They have it on their agenda, but it's pretty low priority, so I was told that if I want that, I'd need to wait "for a long time".

Buying an NVidia card right now seems pretty pointless with new ones likely coming out in Q1/2020 or Q2/2020.. Maybe I'll just wait.

 

[aXeL]

The issue with VRgineers is that they're simply not focused on gaming or end users at all. Those companies (car makers, aerospace companies, space agencies) probably really don't mind paying 5000€ per HMD. As far as I understood them (and I got that part from public interviews, not from my correspondence with them), it would be risky for them to enter the retail market.

On top of that, VRgineers is a private company, so Microsoft can't just do a hostile takeover.

In the meantime, I've received another reply from them. They say, that AMD Radeon cards are truly 100% unsupported. They tested them and they don't work, apparently because of some missing features. They have it on their agenda, but it's pretty low priority, so I was told that if I want that, I'd need to wait "for a long time".

Buying an NVidia card right now seems pretty pointless with new ones likely coming out in Q1/2020 or Q2/2020.. Maybe I'll just wait.

I recall an interview with VRgineers and I vaguely recall them mentioning something about being interested in partnering for manufacture although I don't recall the blockers

As a private company, would this mean MS could just make them an offer? Usually it's something like gross value plus 3 years revenue as the broad calculation for a private company? I could be wrong though, that was roughly what someone offered for one of our family businesses although we decided it wasn't good enough so maybe it's a bad analogy.

Any info on Ampere? the 2080ti is just not enough of a jump ( for the money ) from my 1080ti, however Ampere might be. ATM I'm waiting to see next month how CLX stacks up against Ryzen for HEDT. Looks like it's just speed binned Skylake-X so may come to nothing.

 

[GrandAdmiralThrawn]

I may go for Threadripper 3000 when it comes to HEDT, but not for gaming. Should be a perfect CPU for high quality video encoding (x265, some x264), so I'm planning to build a small, headless UNIX box with that, likely based on FreeBSD. But that's entirely unrelated to the VR headsets discussed here.

Aside from that, I know nothing about Ampere other than the "H1/2020" rumors. I requested a quote from VRgineers for the XTAL, mentioning the added cost of having to go back from AMD to NVidia at a possibly suboptimal time. Let's see what they can offer.

The Index doesn't seem to be good enough an upgrade when I already have an O+, and the Reverb... Not sure if I want the smaller sweet spot. The XTAL would save all problems at once I guess.

Of course, it's going to be far too expensive, no matter how good it is. Even if I get a better price (which I doubt), it's still gonna be a ton of cash.

I need to think more about this... Just staying on the O+ and waiting for a while might also be a good (and cheap) idea.