Scale

[Thisdale]

Scale

The first time you jump in Elite, you get a very cool vibe. Your first approach to a station and first docking is nerve racking and exciting. There is little other than “Wooaaaaaa” that can describe the moment you fly next to an Anaconda. 4 billion stars or whatnot. That’s huge!

This is the line that we stand on. I’m making this post on a subject that seems to elusive a bit. The sense of Scale of the Elite “world”. Granted this is a video game, yes. It is a Space simulator-ish, yes. However, since it takes place in such a distant future, where humanity has colonized the stars, I was hoping for a bit of a grander sense of scale. Of Dimension. Of Volume.

The Space Stations are pretty neat and they seem to have a descent size, until you fly next to a Capital ship. Then you notice those ships are about 1/4 the size of a station. That makes the capital ship very big, or the stations very small. This is not a scientific observation per say (I didn’t go out and measure everything), but simply based on my feeling, my emotional reaction to the whole thing. Since it is a game, in space, in the future, that is.

This whole thing doesn’t stop there. The “scale” I’m talking about is so restrained, that it makes little sense, considering the actual lore of the game itself (the Franchise, perhaps?). Yes, Elite originates in the 1980s, on computers that could display zero colors. That was a limitation in itself. It is now a game that can render 3D in millions of colors. 4 billion stars, big. Thinking about it makes the whole thing mind blowing, if you will.

However, looking at the stuff in the game… comparing it with a simplified “real life on earth”, it seems the Elite Universe is WAY off.

Examples:
The biggest Cargo Ship in Elite (right now): Lakon Type9. Roughly 500tons of cargo. 100meters long. (yes I know, there will be bigger).
The biggest Cargo ship on earth(water): The MSC Oscar. Roughly 190,000tons of cargo (can carry 20,000tons). 400meters long.
The biggest Cargo on earth(ground): The Bucyrus MT6300AC(the Caterpillar is another example). Roughly 360 tons of cargo. 50 meters long.

That roughly means the Type9 is the size of the Bucyrus… in space. That is SMALL. Infinitely small.

I mean, let’s take a look at the main lore of science-fiction these days: http://www.chartgeek.com/wp-content...iction_spaceships_by_dirkloechel-d6lfgdf1.jpg


Although there is much contest over the actual size; the Anaconda Ship is about the size of the Star Trek Defiant; which is 300,000metric tons and has a crew complement of 50… So is the Defiant (contested between 50m and 200m long depending on movies and episodes, cough*)is or very small (ASP size) or Huge (two Anaconda side by size). And a small bleep on the image above (link). Humanity didn’t spread out that much on that size. It just couldn’t.

Aside from the “scale difference” of the ships, it still feels like everything is super tinny and disproportionate in Elite. Especially to the world it exist in.
I mean, the Anaconda is about the size of the new Zumwalk-class US NAVY Destroyer for god-sake (which is 180meters long and has a crew complement of 140…).

The scale… the plausibility… my brain.

Another aspect of “Scale” which eludes me is the concept of mining (in general here). There is simply no way, in rough engineering terms, that Humanity colonized a thousand light years, with Capital ships of the size we see in Elite, and the Mining capacity (mechanically speaking) we see in-game.

Now, with that off my chest, let me point out (for the ones who have read so far) that I am not requesting anything from Frontier. They have their plates full and I’m sure there is more pressing matters for the game.

However, since they made an effort to make cool, but unplayable capital ships, I was mostly wondering, if there were plans to “scale up” the world of Elite to a more plausible standard when it comes to a “Living, Breathing, world”. I’d like to see Huge Cargo Ships (unplayable) of the size of Babylon 5. Space Docks for Capital ships (which should be roughly the size of a space station as is) like in StarTrek. Mining Ships that settle in an extraction site and spread hundreds of mining vessels.

Am I crazy?

 

[CMDR Beltane]

Scale

The first time you jump in Elite, you get a very cool vibe. Your first approach to a station and first docking is nerve racking and exciting. There is little other than “Wooaaaaaa” that can describe the moment you fly next to an Anaconda. 4 billion stars or whatnot. That’s huge!

This is the line that we stand on. I’m making this post on a subject that seems to elusive a bit. The sense of Scale of the Elite “world”. Granted this is a video game, yes. It is a Space simulator-ish, yes. However, since it takes place in such a distant future, where humanity has colonized the stars, I was hoping for a bit of a grander sense of scale. Of Dimension. Of Volume.

The Space Stations are pretty neat and they seem to have a descent size, until you fly next to a Capital ship. Then you notice those ships are about 1/4 the size of a station. That makes the capital ship very big, or the stations very small. This is not a scientific observation per say (I didn’t go out and measure everything), but simply based on my feeling, my emotional reaction to the whole thing. Since it is a game, in space, in the future, that is.

This whole thing doesn’t stop there. The “scale” I’m talking about is so restrained, that it makes little sense, considering the actual lore of the game itself (the Franchise, perhaps?). Yes, Elite originates in the 1980s, on computers that could display zero colors. That was a limitation in itself. It is now a game that can render 3D in millions of colors. 4 billion stars, big. Thinking about it makes the whole thing mind blowing, if you will.

However, looking at the stuff in the game… comparing it with a simplified “real life on earth”, it seems the Elite Universe is WAY off.

Examples:
The biggest Cargo Ship in Elite (right now): Lakon Type9. Roughly 500tons of cargo. 100meters long. (yes I know, there will be bigger).
The biggest Cargo ship on earth(water): The MSC Oscar. Roughly 190,000tons of cargo (can carry 20,000tons). 400meters long.
The biggest Cargo on earth(ground): The Bucyrus MT6300AC(the Caterpillar is another example). Roughly 360 tons of cargo. 50 meters long.

That roughly means the Type9 is the size of the Bucyrus… in space. That is SMALL. Infinitely small.

I mean, let’s take a look at the main lore of science-fiction these days: http://www.chartgeek.com/wp-content...iction_spaceships_by_dirkloechel-d6lfgdf1.jpg


Although there is much contest over the actual size; the Anaconda Ship is about the size of the Star Trek Defiant; which is 300,000metric tons and has a crew complement of 50… So is the Defiant (contested between 50m and 200m long depending on movies and episodes, cough*)is or very small (ASP size) or Huge (two Anaconda side by size). And a small bleep on the image above (link). Humanity didn’t spread out that much on that size. It just couldn’t.

Aside from the “scale difference” of the ships, it still feels like everything is super tinny and disproportionate in Elite. Especially to the world it exist in.
I mean, the Anaconda is about the size of the new Zumwalk-class US NAVY Destroyer for god-sake (which is 180meters long and has a crew complement of 140…).

The scale… the plausibility… my brain.

Another aspect of “Scale” which eludes me is the concept of mining (in general here). There is simply no way, in rough engineering terms, that Humanity colonized a thousand light years, with Capital ships of the size we see in Elite, and the Mining capacity (mechanically speaking) we see in-game.

Now, with that off my chest, let me point out (for the ones who have read so far) that I am not requesting anything from Frontier. They have their plates full and I’m sure there is more pressing matters for the game.

However, since they made an effort to make cool, but unplayable capital ships, I was mostly wondering, if there were plans to “scale up” the world of Elite to a more plausible standard when it comes to a “Living, Breathing, world”. I’d like to see Huge Cargo Ships (unplayable) of the size of Babylon 5. Space Docks for Capital ships (which should be roughly the size of a space station as is) like in StarTrek. Mining Ships that settle in an extraction site and spread hundreds of mining vessels.

Am I crazy?

Not crazy - but the question is: Why should they build larger ships, stations, whatnot. Sure, that freighter you mentioned can pick of way more than a T9. But the T9 needs only a few minutes to bring its cargo from A to B. Going chilled one T9 will bring 3000 tons of cargo per hour that way. In less than a day, it has transported more than that freighter could carry at all - and without beeing anything close to its destination. There is simply not the need for such vast freighters, due to speed. And the second thing is, materials. Building those stations is quite the invest and take extreme amounts of materials, especially metals.

 

[Thisdale]

Not crazy - but the question is: Why should they build larger ships, stations, whatnot. Sure, that freighter you mentioned can pick of way more than a T9. But the T9 needs only a few minutes to bring its cargo from A to B.

That's assuming the same laws of speed physics do not apply to a bigger cargo freighter(which i don't see why it wouldn't). The point is less about speeds, it's about scale.
Also, big freighters shouldn't be used to carry cargo to a neighbouring system. More for 150+Ly.
Considering wear/tear, fuel as well.

Overall, if using smaller ships to do more shipment was the way to go, you'd see plenty of small speed boats in the oceans, which you do not (keeping with the theme).

 

[Meathook]

Not crazy - but the question is: Why should they build larger ships, stations, whatnot.

So they have larger ships to haul larger cargos to build larger stations where they can build even larger ships to haul even larger cargos to build even larger stations where they can build...

 

[WO-One]

I've flow up to the edge of a corolis station. Assuming the guide dot on you HUD is centred on the slot, it's about 10km across.

Is that big enough?

 

[NeoRacer_XOX]

Whats plausible? Nothing in Elite is plausible, its science fiction..anything goes.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Human sense of scale is screwed in space. Add multiple light speeds in a mix and it goes nuts.

 

[Acarin]

I think that a better sense of scale may kick in when you can walk around your ship, both internally and externally. At the moment, because you are strapped on the front, you never really feel much of a scale difference between, say, a Viper and a Clipper. The stations do feel rather small. However, if you can disembark and then spend 5 minutes jogging over to the adjacent landing pad, that may well give you a much better sense of being a microscopic blob of protoplasm in the workings of the human race

 

[Salkinius]

You are not crazy Sir.

I never played Elite back in the day. I was too little for the first one, and the later adaptations never crossed my path somehow. But from what I gather from Dangerous is that Frontier has concentrated mainly on getting a working space sim up and out on the market. They haven't focused on content or lore at all allmost.

Every planet is the same to the next planet of the same kind. Every system is the same. Sol isn't any more special than HIP 23445 when it comes to content.

What makes the universes of Star Wars, EVE, Star trek, Mass Effect, X-series and many other Sci-fi worlds so great is that they feel alive. There are many alien races (even though I hate the stupendous diversity in Star Wars with an equal number of different species as there are individuals in a room. look at the Moss Eisley Cantina for example), there are many companies that manufactures ships, stations, weapons and regular commodities. All these have their own little story. Each ship manufacturer produces ships and sometimes several kinds of ships in each ship class, reaching from a single seater fighter to super freighters.

When you RELEASE a game like Elite then you really have to have the basic content already in the game. There should be a huge bulk of different ships to choose from, there should be different stories to pursue for all the different factions and stations. There should be densely populated systems and planets and there should be planets mush less so (there are no populated earth like worlds with less that 4 billion people.. they are all around that number). I mean where are the ongoing colonization projects).

All of these elements should be in before you release a game. Hell, they should be in even before you start developing the game in a sense. I can buy that we'll get more features like planetary landings later on. I can even buy that I have to buy them. But I can't buy a science fiction MMO world that seem to have been thought up and implemented by a 10 year old during a sick day home from school.

 

[Poy]

What a good coincidence, I was actually making an album on the subject of "everything is huge in this game"













And for the final touch, my favorite part of a trailer made by FD (I'd love to see these kind of convoys)

[video=youtube;W2IuEuXDTI8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2IuEuXDTI8&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[Salkinius]

Not crazy - but the question is: Why should they build larger ships, stations, whatnot. Sure, that freighter you mentioned can pick of way more than a T9. But the T9 needs only a few minutes to bring its cargo from A to B. Going chilled one T9 will bring 3000 tons of cargo per hour that way. In less than a day, it has transported more than that freighter could carry at all - and without beeing anything close to its destination. There is simply not the need for such vast freighters, due to speed. And the second thing is, materials. Building those stations is quite the invest and take extreme amounts of materials, especially metals.

But we aren't seeing that amount of cargo ships. We're seeing sidewinders, vipers and cobras flying around with the occasional freighter. We aren't seeing the amount of trade that is required to maintain the system economies with billions of people. Where are the food trade for example.

 

[Talarin]

I’d like to see Huge Cargo Ships (unplayable) of the size of Babylon 5. Space Docks for Capital ships (which should be roughly the size of a space station as is) like in StarTrek. Mining Ships that settle in an extraction site and spread hundreds of mining vessels.

Am I crazy?

No. I'd like to see a swathe of content which is not directly accessible to us (i.e. not playable). Capital ships (in more variety than we have now) and military-only spacecraft, Bulk Haulers, Space Dredgers and Hermit Asteroids... The game is rich in lore and this would start adding to that "living feel"/"content rich" environment.
.
As an aside, I'd really like to see smaller capital ships (think military frigates) as part of system security of a rich system. Something slightly above the Anaconda in terms of size and firepower - not accessible to players and requiring military shipyards (or perhaps something in the "checkpoint" instance) to service.

 

[Mufus]

Yes, there are serious issues with "realistic" scale... but this is the fictional game world of Elite. In any sense of realism, you won't find single-human controlled space ships where the pilot is effectively sitting in a glass greenhouse looking out (with no rear, side or up/down cameras). The amount of cargo space given the size of the containers (which incidently is always the same, although 1t of Gold is going to be a vastly different size to 1t of clothing, even vacuum packed) bears no relationship to the size of the cargo modules and therefore the ship itself. While it's cute, it's an attempt to make star travel appear to be as common and run-of-the-mill as driving a large truck and for various realistic reasons (radiation, g-force, toilet facilities, module/cargo storage) the ships just aren't large enough - a single pilot ship with the independent capabilities that the Elite game world gives them would likely have to be the size of something like an Anaconda.

The space stations are no where near large enough either, with a severe disfunction between the inside docking instance and the exterior (particularly evident when you twig that regardless of the size of the station, the docking instance interior is the same), the ship storage and manipulation facilities in place and the purported populations of some of these. And don't get me started why in an age of fusion power the damn things have solar panels, let alone solar panels that rotate with the station rather being fixed in orientation facing the nearest star. I haven't got pedantic enough to look at the maths of the rotating segments either with the artifical gravity, but I suspect that there is a disfunction there as well... as to why the non-rotating parts and outposts have what look like rooms all nicely lit up... in zero-g.

While you could argue that a lot of these fundamental things could have been solved by the year 3300, there are many things that make zero sense at all.

But in some ways... so what? This is just a game after all, not a real-life simulation of anything in particular.

 

[777Driver]

Wow, reading these comments. You guy's need to see this game in VR, then you will understand the scale.

 

[Salkinius]

Yes, there are serious issues with "realistic" scale... but this is the fictional game world of Elite. In any sense of realism, you won't find single-human controlled space ships where the pilot is effectively sitting in a glass greenhouse looking out (with no rear, side or up/down cameras). The amount of cargo space given the size of the containers (which incidently is always the same, although 1t of Gold is going to be a vastly different size to 1t of clothing, even vacuum packed) bears no relationship to the size of the cargo modules and therefore the ship itself. While it's cute, it's an attempt to make star travel appear to be as common and run-of-the-mill as driving a large truck and for various realistic reasons (radiation, g-force, toilet facilities, module/cargo storage) the ships just aren't large enough - a single pilot ship with the independent capabilities that the Elite game world gives them would likely have to be the size of something like an Anaconda.

The space stations are no where near large enough either, with a severe disfunction between the inside docking instance and the exterior (particularly evident when you twig that regardless of the size of the station, the docking instance interior is the same), the ship storage and manipulation facilities in place and the purported populations of some of these. And don't get me started why in an age of fusion power the damn things have solar panels, let alone solar panels that rotate with the station rather being fixed in orientation facing the nearest star. I haven't got pedantic enough to look at the maths of the rotating segments either with the artifical gravity, but I suspect that there is a disfunction there as well... as to why the non-rotating parts and outposts have what look like rooms all nicely lit up... in zero-g.

While you could argue that a lot of these fundamental things could have been solved by the year 3300, there are many things that make zero sense at all.

But in some ways... so what? This is just a game after all, not a real-life simulation of anything in particular.

You've just given me alot more to get me annoyed. I never thought of the 1 tonnes of clothes respectively 1 tonnes of gold aspect. And i feel noxious with contempt about the solar panel thing. It will bug me silly from now on. Damn that is stupid. It's clear that Elite don't have content manager and if they do they need a competent one.

 

[darshu]

How does something like that sail across the ocean and not sink when a wave hits it lol. (sorry off topic)

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

Picture above reminds me of these fellas: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Long_Range_Cruiser

 

[AtheosisX]

I'm of the mind much larger ships should be in the game, but I don't really think the scope of the game and its economy supports players owning and flying such ships. So basically there just need to be more large NPC ships other than just capital ships, if for no other reason than to make the galaxy feel more alive.

 

[Lobstris]

Why are solar panels bugging people - is it not nice to have redundancy and diversity in your energy supply. Perhaps fusion/anti-matter is used for the heavy industry, but residential, recreational or other facilities run off solar, or batteries, or tubs of photosynthetic genetically engineered algae separating hydrogen from water, or bacteria making diesel?
.
As for ship scales, it would be nice to see the Lynx Bulk carriers back, or to see hundreds of thousands of small ships chugging back and forth between planetary surfaces and station orbits, but I don't think any of us have got the bandwidth to support all of the client positional updates, or the CPUs to support those traffic volumes.
.
And if Elite's ships are too small, other space games have even tinier one man ships.
.
(The one tonne of gold vs one tonne of clothes is a valid point though, you could slow traders credits/hour values right down if they had to solve an inventory management (i.e. knapsack problem) each time they docked. )

 

[Valo56]

The scale of Elite Dangerous is indeed off by a lot - but not in terms of what civilians can get.

Personally I find that what players can get to be very reasonable, though believe that the richest players with the most connections should be able to commission larger (capital) ships and even space stations, becoming on par with at least a moderate sized corporation. However, we are dealing with a cap on the influence a single player can get because.. well, because we don't like players getting that kind of power here, apparently, despite this supposedly being a "do anything you want" world, we can't get into corporations or politics, which serve as EXCELLENT potential for endgame content.

Anyway, I assume that in ED we have space elevators. It only makes sense that they could. Given that, building ships up to just about any size becomes feasible for any group with enough economic power. I am honestly very saddened that Elite does not have armadas of capital ships and giant dreadnoughts flying around, even with fights against jump-capable space stations (destruction unnecessary, routing is all I want), but can only hope that more make their appearance.

One thing in particular that seems counterintuitive at first glance is the scale of these ships. Building ships that are several miles in length with tens of thousands of people crewing them seems to defy the resource capabilities of any group, but the thing is... there's a lot more of it in space than there is on Earth. That sounds dumbed down, but I've been writing a research essay on the near future of space operations and the resources available to us in our own solar system alone are (no pun intended) astronomical.

That larger ships are not more common is, I hope, merely a symptom of an early release lacking in the full breadth of planned content, and not an intentional plan to limit the size and scale of what is out there. The fact that we have 400 billion stars in game gives me hope that no, they are not going for "tiny ships, tiny empires" in Elite Dangerous, because that's exactly what we have right now.

Also, Solar Panels are ideal in space travel, UNLESS you are far from the local star(s). There's no reason not to use it, as fusion requires fuel (scooping), same with anti-matter only that requires particle accelerators (or insert fancy science stuff here).

Whats plausible? Nothing in Elite is plausible, its science fiction..anything goes.

Implausible, yes. Impossible? No. Also, no, in science fiction, "anything goes" is wrong. In fantasy, anything goes. If you want a proper science fiction you are there to provide an interesting story that explores the limits of science.

There are only two technologies I know of that are impossible: Perpetual motion devices and precognition.

Everything else is just an engineering problem.