Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

[darshu]

All that proves is that a Python in the worst possible shields with zero pips can have its shields (just) removed with 28 hitting missiles.

I have a video where I hit an NPC Viper with ~20 missiles (over two staggered volleys) and still don't take down its shields.

It looks like 10 Dumbfires can take out ~2/3rds of a Vipers shields. Again we don't know how many pips the NPC is running in SYS.

Dumbfires are clearly not balanced but that's got nothing to do with Shield Cells. I strongly suspect that a Python with 4 in SYS would be able to survive more than 50 missiles.

Weapons have everything to do with shields cells one directly effects the other. Yes a educated guess would appear to be he has not fully upgraded his shields but i guess that's the standard if you want to spend a small fortune buying and upgrading a python you'd better spend the full 100+mil upgrading the ship so a lone viper doesn't come 2 shot you. Meanwhile if 2 vipers appear your back to square one. Point being Shield cells don't equal god mode.

 

[DimGook]

That day has come and gone, because believe it or not, before the introduction of shield cells, the sidewinder used to be a somewhat capable little ship. Nobody was upset or calling for sidewinder nerfs, despite the price difference between the two. Because if you died in a viper to a sidewinder, you got outplayed.

With this change the eagle will become just as useless in pvp as the sidewinder - not enough shield buffer for the 5s spool-up and not enough power output to fit them.

 

[adoredtv]

Weapons have everything to do with shields cells one directly effects the other. Yes a educated guess would appear to be he has not fully upgraded his shields but i guess that's the standard if you want to spend a small fortune buying and upgrading a python you'd better spend the full 100+mil upgrading the ship so a lone viper doen't come 2 shot you.

Which is fair because a lone Viper will never be able to 2-shot you afterwards. It's the same as a pimped Eagle being able to easily take out a stock Viper or Cobra yet having no chance vs an upgraded one.

Dumbfires will get balanced too obviously.

 

[Captain Willard]

Scrap. Never cared for instant heals in any game format.

 

[DimGook]

Scrap. Never cared for instant heals in any game format.

I agree SCBs should go away completely not "nerfed" like this which is a hidden buff for big ships.

 

[darshu]

Which is fair because a lone Viper will never be able to 2-shot you afterwards. It's the same as a pimped Eagle being able to easily take out a stock Viper or Cobra yet having no chance vs an upgraded one.

Dumbfires will get balanced too obviously.

You idea of fair must not be related to the time and credit ratio it it takes to get a python in comparison to the jump from eagle>viper>cobra ratio. Again the Designers have no intention to turn this into a C.O.D. or arcady arena game and have said as much.

 

[Darian]

And thus removes the pvp all fun from elite because all ships have to be able to beat eachothers.. wait. besides the trading ships offcourse.

really, can we not have an ofshoot of elite called Elite Arena where people select an ship and weapons and do not have to grind the credits with trading, where all ships have the same stats and only the hulls are different, and leave elite dangerous as it is but with more content than ships who are nerfed until they are all about the same so there is more to do than trading and listening to the at this time " unterpowered" ships owners whine?

Get a grip folks, next we have to nerf all other games so the endboss is doable with n00b gear to make it fair against the players who did not grind up to level 80, and if we are at it it is not fair either that my VW beetle can not outperfom an porsche, does not matter that it costs about 1% the porsche costs.

Evenif we make all ships the same the guy with the gamer pit that has cost 5k with occulus and pedals and HOTAS will come and paste you because he has all buttons at his fingertips and can turn his head to look around will paste you only because he grinded dollars in his job and bought an gamer pit.

Weeeeee now we have inspectors from frontier doing surprise searches at the homes of players to make sure noone uses hardware that makes them "god mod!:"

I am all for having someway "realistic" stats for ships, but there is an point where this " balancing" discussion becomes pathetic.

 

[adoredtv]

You idea of fair must not be related to the time and credit ratio it it takes to get a python in comparison to the jump from eagle>viper>cobra ratio. Again the Designers have no intention to turn this into a C.O.D. or arcady arena game and have said as much.

And your idea of fair is that sitting-duck CMDRs in stock ships should be able to withstand a targeted assault of 4 of the highest dps weapons in the game?

That Viper could be a Cobra also, fully combat specced costing 10 million+. Or a Combat Asp at ~30 million maybe carrying a couple of turrets instead. Owning an expensive ship - especially a stock one - does not make you immune to every challenge nor give you free-reign to act in a brain-dead manner.

 

[darshu]

And your idea of fair is that sitting-duck CMDRs in stock ships should be able to withstand a targeted assault of 4 of the highest dps weapons in the game?

That Viper could be a Cobra also, fully specced costing 10 million+. Or a Combat Asp at ~30 million maybe carrying a couple of turrets instead. Owning an expensive ship does not make you immune to every challenge nor allow you to act in a brain-dead manner.

I would very much like you to point out what i said that made you draw that conclusion. The viper could be a cobra? right but it's not. The cobra cost 10 mil and the asp 30..ok. Nobody uses turrets there broke but i think i get the point. the problem seems to be im agreeing with you but you don't realize it. There are ships and loadouts in this game that are pretty cheap that allow players to kill a pythons that use shield cells at a very reasonably cheap cost.

You however then compared the ship progression from a egale>viper>cobra to a python and called it fair. Using logic i pointed out what your idea of fair must not be comprised of. Was i wrong in assuming you think that 100+mil is equal to 10 mil in your idea of fair ?

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

You idea of fair must not be related to the time and credit ratio it it takes to get a python in comparison to the jump from eagle>viper>cobra ratio. Again the Designers have no intention to turn this into a C.O.D. or arcady arena game and have said as much.

They also don't (didn't?) intend to turn the game into WoW with linear be-all-end-all god tier ships that are impervious to everything below them. That was not what older Elite games were about. The Cobra, Viper, etc, could still lay the smackdown on an Anaconda in Elite 2, because hey, guess what? The Anaconda, Python, etc, are primarily traders that sacrificed cargo for more defense.

Since apparently credits denote the combat ability of ships, should the Type-9 beat the Python, considering it's much more expensive?

 

[adoredtv]

I would very much like you to point out what i said that made you draw that conclusion. The viper could be a cobra? right but it's not. The cobra cost 10 mil and the asp 30..ok. Nobody uses turrets there broke but i think i get the point. the problem seems to be im agreeing with you but you don't realize it. There are ships and loadouts in this game that are pretty cheap that allow players to kill a pythons that use shield cells at a very reasonably cheap cost.

Unimproved Pythons with zero pips in Shields and brain-dead CMDR's.

What if it's a fully upgraded Python with 4 pips in shields and somebody who knows what he's doing? At some point you have to stop "balancing" around peoples stupidity.

 

[Darian]

And your idea of fair is that sitting-duck CMDRs in stock ships should be able to withstand a targeted assault of 4 of the highest dps weapons in the game?

That Viper could be a Cobra also, fully combat specced costing 10 million+. Or a Combat Asp at ~30 million maybe carrying a couple of turrets instead. Owning an expensive ship - especially a stock one - does not make you immune to every challenge nor give you free-reign to act in a brain-dead manner.

Hear that snapping noise? That is my patience.


If i bust my ass and train 24/7 ten years streetfighting and I am the guy who beats up every other guy at it i still not expect to bead an guy who inherits ten billion dollars and wedges his fat lazy ass into an abrams tank.

I expect to him to be invulnerable to my fist because that would be REALISTIC that i CAN NOT punch through inch thick reinforced and shatter proof steel and keramik composites.

And i want an game where it is REALISTIC that an ship with an wastly bigger powerplant and therefore shields who can rely on capacitators who are gigantic and have the same weight as an WHOLE viper soaks up the damage the viper dishes out for a very long time.

You want that it is "fair" but that is not realistic either

There has to be an point in ship progress where fair ends and some resemblance of reality sets in or we can do away with different ships and make them all the same.

Lets remove invulnerability of stations and make them explode when an viper two shots them because it is not FAIR that an station who masses million times an viper and probably has thousands of powerplants can not be defeated by an Viper, it is not even an player! just an dump station that can not even evade any attacks!

Get an grip and take it like an MAN that you can not do them in all with one of the smallest fighters in the game.

I really try hard to never get personal in forums because that is bad style but as much as there is an point where sheer mass and power should have an impact my patience goes only so faar with people who demand that logic is bend over backwards to make an game world do what they think is "fair" because ...why?
So that an ship that costs a fraction of an bigger ship, has the fraction of the power avaiable for shields and wepaons, masses a fraction of said ship, has wepaons that mass a fraction of the bigger ships weapons can beat it in an dog fight?

If you do not want to loose an shoot out bring a gun and do not demand that bullets should be nerfed because they are not FAIR!

If they go this way with ELITE is will so rage quit, because i see no sense in an game where all is set up so everyone can beat everyone with everything, not because i am against FAIR but because it totally destroys the immersion into said game as soon all is tweaked and bend to make it FAIR.

Test of character is not that you always have a FAIR chance to win but how you deal with when you CAN NOT WIN

 

[darshu]

They also don't (didn't?) intend to turn the game into WoW with linear be-all-end-all god tier ships that are impervious to everything below them. That was not what older Elite games were about. The Cobra, Viper, etc, could still lay the smackdown on an Anaconda in Elite 2, because hey, guess what? The Anaconda, Python, etc, are primarily traders that sacrificed cargo for more defense.

Since apparently credits denote the combat ability of ships, should the Type-9 beat the Python, considering it's much more expensive?

I'm not sure why you are quoting me i never said they did. and those ships still can lay the smack down on the anaconda and python...Credits "denote" the ability of a ship what ever role it may be. I'm not sure where you are going with this...

 

[darshu]

Unimproved Pythons with zero pips in Shields and brain-dead CMDR's.

What if it's a fully upgraded Python with 4 pips in shields and somebody who knows what he's doing? At some point you have to stop "balancing" around peoples stupidity.

That's a pretty mean comment right there... If its fully upgraded that is time and credits invested in this game and that is one side of the coin when it comes to progression in this game like it or not. the other side is Skill. IF you are insisting that a ship that costs 10 mil be made to kill one that cost at least 200mil "Fully upgraded" I'm afraid you might disappointed in the vision the game designers have for this game.

 

[adoredtv]

Hear that snapping noise? That is my patience.

I'm supposed to care about that why?

If i bust my ass and train 24/7 ten years streetfighting and I am the guy who beats up every other guy at it i still not expect to bead an guy who inherits ten billion dollars and wedges his fat lazy ass into an abrams tank.

I expect to him to be invulnerable to my fist because that would be REALISTIC that i CAN NOT punch through inch thick reinforced and shatter proof steel and keramik composites.

I think you missed the point that it is in fact more like a paperweight champion who avoided all the tough fights. That is what a new, un-upgraded Python CMDR is.

And i want an game where it is REALISTIC that an ship with an wastly bigger powerplant and therefore shields who can rely on capacitators who are gigantic and have the same weight as an WHOLE viper soaks up the damage the viper dishes out for a very long time.

Your power plant is powering everything in your ship, not just your shields. Your crappy beginner shields are barely adequate cover for your hull. Funnily enough, this is the same for all ships at the start.

You want that it is "fair" but that is not realistic either

Ever watched Sumo?

There has to be an point in ship progress where fair ends and some resemblance of reality sets in or we can do away with different ships and make them all the same.

Your beginner python being it? I don't think so.

I really try hard to never get personal in forums because that is bad style but as much as there is an point where sheer mass and power should have an impact my patience goes only so faar with people who demand that logic is bend over backwards to make an game world do what they think is "fair" because ...why?
So that an ship that costs a fraction of an bigger ship, has the fraction of the power avaiable for shields and wepaons, masses a fraction of said ship, has wepaons that mass a fraction of the bigger ships weapons can beat it in an dog fight?

How much does a submarine cost compared to a battleship?

If you do not want to loose an shoot out bring a gun and do not demand that bullets should be nerfed because they are not FAIR!

If they go this way with ELITE is will so rage quit, because i see no sense in an game where all is set up so everyone can beat everyone with everything, not because i am against FAIR but because it totally destroys the immersion into said game as soon all is tweaked and bend to make it FAIR.

Test of character is not that you always have a FAIR chance to win but how you deal with when you CAN NOT WIN

There's no chance at all that you could just be a typical wannabe who thinks that the biggest ship can make up for a lack of skill, right? There is no ship in the game that will let you win automatically vs a far more skilled pilot in a good combat ship - and if it existed it would be proof of a badly balanced game.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

That's a pretty mean comment right there... If its fully upgraded that is time and credits invested in this game and that is one side of the coin when it comes to progression in this game like it or not. the other side is Skill. IF you are insisting that a ship that costs 10 mil be made to kill one that cost at least 200mil "Fully upgraded" I'm afraid you might disappointed in the vision the game designers have for this game.

If I'm going to be disappointed in the vision then how come the dev in this thread already pointed out that Pythons were going to be getting a nerf?

 

[Darian]

Did i say WIN?
I said it is realistic that at some point you can not kill ship A with ship B

An Viper can fly circles around an anaconda and DOGDE its most powerfull weapon.
As much as an grunt can hide and sneak around an battle tank all day.

If i bring very speczialised weapons with me i even have the chance to take it out at high personal risk.

But if each ship in the game has to be able to take out every other ship in an dogfight (exept traders, cant allow the filthy traders to defend themself) then bloody well make them all cost the same and have the same stats (exept the traders, anyone who plays an trader deserves to die and be ressurected and then beat until dead again)

And submarines come not cheap and take a crew of highly trained specialists to run.

If i attack the best streetfighter in the world who stands on one leg and looks the other way while whisteling la paloma i give me a very remote chance to give him an shiner but i would still expect to swallow my own teeth right before his fist.

Of i was David Braben i would take away all ships in game and turn them into sidewinders for ooh lets say an month.
And if the player base then asks very nicely and tells me how sorry they are i would consider to give them back there different ships who are not balanced to be able to beat each other (beside the traderscum offcourse) but only if they promise to shut up about FAIR

 

[darshu]

If I'm going to be disappointed in the vision then how come the dev in this thread already pointed out that Pythons were going to be getting a nerf?

I said I'm afraid you will be. I am fully aware of that post and if "dropping it's manoeuvrability a tad" is what you were looking for I'm happy for you. keep in mind it is a multipurpose ship a expensive one but still not a dedicated fighter/combat ship. What exactly do you see happening when they add bigger combat ships ?

 

[Darian]

I said I'm afraid you will be. I am fully aware of that post and if "dropping it's manoeuvrability a tad" is what you where looking for I'm happy for you. keep in mind it is a multipurpose ship a expensive one but still not a dedicated fighter/combat ship. What exactly do you see happening when they add bigger combat ships ?

Bigger combat ships off course should be beatable by single vipers.
Only because an traderscum makes a lot of money he should not be able to buy one and an single viper can not beat him.. am I riiiiiiight?

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

I'm not sure why you are quoting me i never said they did. and those ships still can lay the smack down on the anaconda and python...Credits "denote" the ability of a ship what ever role it may be. I'm not sure where you are going with this...

Just following suit with your CoD comparison. Those ships can't compete with pythons or anacondas unless they focus all of their hardpoints on exclusively dumbfire missiles, and attack a seemingly clueless python that apparently neglected to put pips in shields, or upgrade its shield.

That said, the Anaconda and Python are not combat ships. They're armed traders, similar to an East Indiaman. If the cost justifies them being god-tier invincible combat ships, then surely the Type-9, which costs more than the Python, should be as well.

 

[darshu]

Just following suit with your CoD comparison. Those ships can't compete with pythons or anacondas unless they focus all of their hardpoints on exclusively dumbfire missiles, and attack a seemingly clueless python that apparently neglected to put pips in shields, or upgrade its shield.

That said, the Anaconda and Python are not combat ships. They're armed traders, similar to an East Indiaman. If the cost justifies them being god-tier invincible combat ships, then surely the Type-9, which costs more than the Python, should be as well.

Fair enough but the python isn't a god tier ship. Yes the pilots cant win unless they are smart, loadout to counter their target and are skilled enough to line up a shot. god forbid the 200mil ship has any pips in shields preventing its shields from being two shot. Meanwhile in the scenario it is using 4 pips the slower Python either has 1 pip in engine and one in weapons, has 2 pips in weapons or is juggling both while maneuvering shooting and tracking the opponet and wondering why his guns wont shoot.