Seasons Were Rubbish And I'm Glad They're Gone :)

[VR Golgot]

So I'm sure everyone knows, but the Seasonal PDLC model was dumped after 2.4.

And as grinding as this lengthy transition to 'all in one' PDLC has been, I reckon this is a good thing ultimately

Paid seasons were...


Bad for Consumers:

Paying for something and then getting it in instalments, never knowing if it will arrive as advertised, is pants. (I forgave it more when they were getting ED off the ground, but Horizons just doubled-down on all of the flaws...)


Unpopular with the Devs (seemingly):

Going by these snippets from the last few Lavecons anyway...

Drunken gossip from 2018:

Horizons having the roadmap publicly laid out for the entire expansion (major features at least) meant they were locked in to specific promised feature set with no wriggle-room for deviation if they thought of better/more important things along the way, or certain features turned out to be not as fun as expected, etc.
So this time they're completing the entire mega-update in advance and not telling anyone what's in it until they're absolutely sure about what is going to be delivered.
EDIT: This is what I gleaned from talking to a very drunk Sandro Sammarco (nice chap) at Lavecon the other year.

Yamiks in 2019:

The way they told me things, since Horizons was such a, let's stick with the term 'hard lesson', they decided to go with an 'everything at once' approach for the next expansion / update thing. So taking off time to actually work on the thing was necessary but in result as a whole it'll provide a more unified and refined experience that Horizons did not manage.

+

On the brighter side, the fact that it would be developed as a whole thing, with every aspect in the mind, does make me kind of happy... When talking with developers it felt like every single one of them couldn't wait to tell you about it in a genuine non PR way.

Bad for Game Design:

At least this is my impression. Having to deliver regular 'flagship' mechanisms seemed to lead to:

• Not enough crossover with other game mechanics
• Not enough time to overcome technical humps in the road
• Not enough content produced at the end of the dev cycle

A fun thought experiment here is: If Horizons had been developed as one single run, would the SRV & Multicrew work together?

It's not guaranteed, but they would have had more time to work out the kinks, at any rate. (Or alternately, they could have held Multicrew back for, say, a Legs DLC, where it made more sense. And worked on something that did work in concert with current mechanisms instead. Like a ton of planetary content for a start )

Seasons have notably lacked any real level of synthesis between its additions in that sense. If deliveries had carried on like that, Season after Season, the wasted opportunities would have done my nut in


And There Are Other Reasons to Dump Them:

It's not just because their output wasn't the best. It's become pretty clear that ED's staffing was never enough to do all of the following simultaneously:

• Deliver regular GAAS content
• Deliver periodic DLC (pegged to new game mechanics & content)
• Develop crazily ambitious expansions

I'm not arguing that they don't have reasonable staffing. I think it's pretty clear that they do have ~100 devs on the project. And have risen to that point from the '100 staffing' ballpark which seemed to exist through most of Horizons. (Fight me in the comments if you like over this , but the community visit is decent enough corroboration for me)

But it's pretty clear those numbers still aren't enough to do all of the above. Not for a proc gen game trying to do solo / co-op / multiplayer content & tech etc. In total, it's way too much. It looks like it's a case of 'pick one'. And do it well.

So even though waving goodbye to GAAS (for now?) isn't exactly welcome. And as much having no new toys for a massive stretch is poo. And as much as all of this is a result of FDev essentially ballsing up....

I'm glad they've changed direction. Seeing Horizons-style DLC stuck randomly onto the game for its lifespan would have been particularly painful...

Now to see if an all-in-one DLC is actually any better


TLDR:
Seasons bad. Big DLC better. Probably

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying the 2020 DLC will definitely be good. I'm just saying it's got a better chance of being so

 

[Factabulous]

TLDR:
Seasons bad. Big DLC better. Probably

I guess we'll find out in December

 

[askavir]

I think we should wait to see with our own eyes before assuming big dlc better. We don't even know what it is, or if it's even that big.

edit: just to be clear, I'm not trying to jinx it, I truly hope it's awesome, I'm even cautiosly optimistic, but I'm getting too old to decide which of 2 things are better without seeing them both first.

 

[VR Golgot]

I think we should wait to see with our own eyes before assuming big dlc better. We don't even know what it is, or if it's even that big.

edit: just to be clear, I'm not trying to jinx it, I truly hope it's awesome, I'm even cautiosly optimistic, but I'm getting too old to decide which of 2 things are better without seeing them both first.

Oh yeah I do agree. I'm not getting carried away on what the DLC might deliver. (That's why I added the 'probably' )

I think what I'm getting at is that we do have experience of what the Seasonal system could deliver. And I think the odds of it continuing to have the same weaknesses as it's displayed to date are pretty good.

(On the DLC front I think there is a case for saying it's 'big' though incidentally. But I still agree that pre-judging its actual quality would be daft )

 

[Factabulous]

My main worry with the 'big bang' DLC is that they'll include the story elements for the next X years (rather than what we've had - which is new elements added every 3-4 months). This will give the file-dippers more opportunity to spoil any ongoing story by 'finding' things early. So while I'm optimistic that the New Era I hope they keep on with the regular content drops as well to push the 'story' forward.

But hey - we'll find out in December I guess

 

[Aldaris]

My main worry with the 'big bang' DLC is that they'll include the story elements for the next X years (rather than what we've had - which is new elements added every 3-4 months). This will give the file-dippers more opportunity to spoil any ongoing story by 'finding' things early. So while I'm optimistic that the New Era I hope they keep on with the regular content drops as well to push the 'story' forward.

But hey - we'll find out in December I guess

I think there's a difference between dropping all the new mechanics etc at once, and patches later down the line with story content. One does not preclude the other.

 

[Viajero]

So I'm sure everyone knows, but the Seasonal PDLC model was dumped after 2.4.

And as grinding as this lengthy transition to 'all in one' PDLC has been, I reckon this is a good thing ultimately

Paid seasons were...


Bad for Consumers:

Paying for something and then getting it in instalments, never knowing if it will arrive as advertised, is pants. (I forgave it more when they were getting ED off the ground, but Horizons just doubled-down on all of the flaws...)


Unpopular with the Devs (seemingly):

Going by these snippets from the last few Lavecons anyway...

Drunken gossip from 2018:


Yamiks in 2019:




Bad for Game Design:

At least this is my impression. Having to deliver regular 'flagship' mechanisms seemed to lead to:

• Not enough crossover with other game mechanics
• Not enough time to overcome technical humps in the road
• Not enough content produced at the end of the dev cycle

A fun thought experiment here is: If Horizons had been developed as one single run, would the SRV & Multicrew work together?

It's not guaranteed, but they would have had more time to work out the kinks, at any rate. (Or alternately, they could have held Multicrew back for, say, a Legs DLC, where it made more sense. And worked on something that did work in concert with current mechanisms instead. Like a ton of planetary content for a start )

Seasons have notably lacked any real level of synthesis between its additions in that sense. If deliveries had carried on like that, Season after Season, the wasted opportunities would have done my nut in


And There Are Other Reasons to Dump Them:

It's not just because their output wasn't the best. It's become pretty clear that ED's staffing was never enough to do all of the following simultaneously:

• Deliver regular GAAS content
• Deliver periodic DLC (pegged to new game mechanics & content)
• Develop crazily ambitious expansions

I'm not arguing that they don't have reasonable staffing. I think it's pretty clear that they do have ~100 devs on the project. And have risen to that point from the '100 staffing' ballpark which seemed to exist through most of Horizons. (Fight me in the comments if you like over this , but the community visit is decent enough corroboration for me)

But it's pretty clear those numbers still aren't enough to do all of the above. Not for a proc gen game trying to do solo / co-op / multiplayer content & tech etc. In total, it's way too much. It looks like it's a case of 'pick one'. And do it well.

So even though waving goodbye to GAAS (for now?) isn't exactly welcome. And as much having no new toys for a massive stretch is poo. And as much as all of this is a result of FDev essentially ballsing up....

I'm glad they've changed direction. Seeing Horizons-style DLC stuck randomly onto the game for its lifespan would have been particularly painful...

Now to see if an all-in-one DLC is actually any better


TLDR:
Seasons bad. Big DLC better. Probably

Good summary. The proof is still in the pudding though so we will only be able to confirm all this when we see how new era is released/sold. And of course, even if correct, none of this guarantees the quality of the end product.

 

[The Nephilim]

I'd rather have it delivered in chapters to be honest. I hate the idea of it all delivered in one go.

People will be bored again within weeks and have zero to look forward to.

 

[VR Golgot]

Good summary. The proof is still in the pudding though so we will only be able to confirm all this when we see how new era is released/sold. And of course, even if correct, none of this guarantees the quality of the end product.

Yeah absolutely (and I should probably have made clearer in the OP ). They could improve on all the areas mentioned, and still produce a duff DLC potentially. IE the mechanics could be extensive, complementary, and filled out with content, but that doesn't ensure the mechanics & content will actually be good

That stuff is all in the lap of the dev gods

(I do have a sneaky feeling that they'll pull some intriguing stuff out of the fire, for my game preferences, based on designers etc that have done stuff I like still being there. But still a time-will-tell one ultimately )

 

[Ian Skippy]

I guess we'll find out in December

I guess we'll find out in October if we'll find out in December.

 

[VR Golgot]

My main worry with the 'big bang' DLC is that they'll include the story elements for the next X years (rather than what we've had - which is new elements added every 3-4 months). This will give the file-dippers more opportunity to spoil any ongoing story by 'finding' things early. So while I'm optimistic that the New Era I hope they keep on with the regular content drops as well to push the 'story' forward.

But hey - we'll find out in December I guess

Yeah I do hope they can get on an even keel post-release and dedicate resources to stuff like Galnet and CGs at least, and ideally story location additions periodically etc. I suspect they will be able to if the DLC does ok. As Aldaris says there's still room for them to add narrative stuff incrementally.

A parallel possibility is they might lean on proc gen 'narratives' more too. (Another interesting bit of Yamiks' dev chats at Lavecon was the emphasis on proc gen over bespoke content etc). That stuff's a bit harder the file dip . (Unless you want to read Wedding Barge pledge #8BZ% )

I'd rather have it delivered in chapters to be honest. I hate the idea of it all delivered in one go.

People will be bored again within weeks and have zero to look forward to.

Do the sketchy, isolated nature of the game mechanics not bother you? And the lack of complementary content?

Do you not think they might struggle to address stuff like Atmos & Legs mechanics if they use the same delivery system as Horizons?

It just looks like a really dubious path to continue down to me, on those fronts. (But possibly I see the payoff differently, as I don't play ED as my 'one game' / an MMO etc, so it doesn't burn me to lose the content cadence for a bit )

 

[Rubbernuke]

As long as FD take this time and update the whole game and not bolt on yet another pointless feature then I'll be happier. The game as it is would be great if ranks, PP, CQC, MC, superpowers etc were all fleshed out better.

 

[Thatchinho]

So I'm sure everyone knows, but the Seasonal PDLC model was dumped after 2.4.

And as grinding as this lengthy transition to 'all in one' PDLC has been, I reckon this is a good thing ultimately

Paid seasons were...


Bad for Consumers:

Paying for something and then getting it in instalments, never knowing if it will arrive as advertised, is pants. (I forgave it more when they were getting ED off the ground, but Horizons just doubled-down on all of the flaws...)


Unpopular with the Devs (seemingly):

Going by these snippets from the last few Lavecons anyway...

Drunken gossip from 2018:


Yamiks in 2019:




Bad for Game Design:

At least this is my impression. Having to deliver regular 'flagship' mechanisms seemed to lead to:

• Not enough crossover with other game mechanics
• Not enough time to overcome technical humps in the road
• Not enough content produced at the end of the dev cycle

A fun thought experiment here is: If Horizons had been developed as one single run, would the SRV & Multicrew work together?

It's not guaranteed, but they would have had more time to work out the kinks, at any rate. (Or alternately, they could have held Multicrew back for, say, a Legs DLC, where it made more sense. And worked on something that did work in concert with current mechanisms instead. Like a ton of planetary content for a start )

Seasons have notably lacked any real level of synthesis between its additions in that sense. If deliveries had carried on like that, Season after Season, the wasted opportunities would have done my nut in


And There Are Other Reasons to Dump Them:

It's not just because their output wasn't the best. It's become pretty clear that ED's staffing was never enough to do all of the following simultaneously:

• Deliver regular GAAS content
• Deliver periodic DLC (pegged to new game mechanics & content)
• Develop crazily ambitious expansions

I'm not arguing that they don't have reasonable staffing. I think it's pretty clear that they do have ~100 devs on the project. And have risen to that point from the '100 staffing' ballpark which seemed to exist through most of Horizons. (Fight me in the comments if you like over this , but the community visit is decent enough corroboration for me)

But it's pretty clear those numbers still aren't enough to do all of the above. Not for a proc gen game trying to do solo / co-op / multiplayer content & tech etc. In total, it's way too much. It looks like it's a case of 'pick one'. And do it well.

So even though waving goodbye to GAAS (for now?) isn't exactly welcome. And as much having no new toys for a massive stretch is poo. And as much as all of this is a result of FDev essentially ballsing up....

I'm glad they've changed direction. Seeing Horizons-style DLC stuck randomly onto the game for its lifespan would have been particularly painful...

Now to see if an all-in-one DLC is actually any better


TLDR:
Seasons bad. Big DLC better. Probably

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying the 2020 DLC will definitely be good. I'm just saying it's got a better chance of being

Think we've been in enough of the same threads now that you'll know I've also been pointing out for ages that it's a transition from payment in advance to payment on delivery.

But, for what it's worth for this thread, yes, though painful it's a necessary change which will be for the better. As much as the current period of downtime isn't particularly great, it's pretty much a general rule that improvements in the medium to longer term involve negatives in the short term.

In an ideal world they'd have followed the payment on delivery model from the start, but that's only viable if you're in a financial position to pay for all the development costs up front with no major income expected until completion. I don't think FD were necessarily in that position for Horizons, but once they've got into the financial position to make the switch to the better model, they've done so, which is a good thing.

What I would say though is that I don't think we're necessarily getting a full all in one DLC. Well not in the sense of it being that and then nothing until the next major paid for DLC.

What I think we're likely to get is a split between mechanics and content which makes use of those mechanics, as follows:

All-in-one part:

• Major new mechanics
• Overhaul of existing mechanics
• Any networking changes and things like that
• All fundamental assets for the the new mechanics
• Procgen use of the new assets
• A set of assets and other things which are for the non-procgen side of the game.

That's all customer facing stuff, but at the back-end, I suspect there'll be improved tools for doing stuff with the mechanics. There'll need to be the tools for doing things with all the new mechanics anyway, so it would make sense to do a general overhaul.

Post release, what will then happen will be:

• new assets and other non-mechanics stuff being created and added on an ongoing basis (with different timings depending on the scale).
• development of the next major paid DLC, with the next major set of mechanics (and associated assets, etc) coming with that.

It's always possible that there might be a few bits of new mechanics between the paid DLCs as well, but I think the vast majority (if not all) will be in the paid DLCs.

Should be a much improved situation overall following the release of the New Era DLC.

 

[Riverside]

Good analysis OP

Having new features added incrementally suited me just fine, provided they all stitched together as was implied they would be when I bought the game.

Whatever works best is best, I don't mind the plan changing, but the lack of communication over changes to the way the product is being developed has not inspired confidence in me. Still, the basic game is mostly still there & I enjoy it immensely.

 

[Old Duck]

I agree with the OP - the best games are usually the ones built from start to finish before being released to the public, and it's not uncommon for these games to be delayed to make sure everything is as close to perfect in-house as can be. Finishing the construction of a car as it's driving down the road is obviously less effective than building the entire thing in the factory.

Unfortunately more and more games are being released in various states of alpha and early access, and for the most part this scares me away from those games. A perfect example is Infinity: Battlescape, which is in Early Access yet is being sold at full price as if it were a completed game. I'm very interested in that game, but I'm not paying for an unfinished product. Who knows how long, if ever, it will take to actually finish these Early Access games? Even with Elite there is no guarantee that it will ever be finished to the grand vision that David Braben pitched in his developer diary series, but at least I feel I've gotten my money's worth with the gameplay we do have.

 

[babelfisch]

Doesn't matter what's best for us or the game as long as we can find something to complain about. Without complaining Dangerous Discussion is doomed. Heck, the whole world is doomed. Just imagine T.j. stops being busy screwing up the forums, guess what happens when he goes out the first time!

 

[Thatchinho]

My main worry with the 'big bang' DLC is that they'll include the story elements for the next X years (rather than what we've had - which is new elements added every 3-4 months). This will give the file-dippers more opportunity to spoil any ongoing story by 'finding' things early. So while I'm optimistic that the New Era I hope they keep on with the regular content drops as well to push the 'story' forward.

But hey - we'll find out in December I guess

It's a legit worry, but I'd like to think FD have also taken that stuff into account and improved things on their end to reduce the risk. They've certainly learnt from the mistakes of their own doing, such as the trailer which gave away the location of the first Guardian site. That kind of improvement's been there to see when looked for, so it's probably fair to say that they've also taken steps on the less front-facing side of things.

Already said it in my reply to Golgot, but I do think we will continue to see content added after the New Era release (in the form of new assets and things like that, not significant new mechanics). It makes sense to do it that way from a resourcing and finance perspective alone, plus will allow FD to do more in terms of events and the grander progress of the galaxy type stuff.

 

[Good Whiskey]

I agree with the OP - the best games are usually the ones built from start to finish before being released to the public, and it's not uncommon for these games to be delayed to make sure everything is as close to perfect in-house as can be.

I sort of disagree with this. The best games going right now for me are ones where players are either actively involved in development via regular betas and feedback cycles, or ones where the developers do a lot of advance "show and tell". This is the new way, and it produces better final versions. Frontier said countless times that "We'll be sharing more information with you about Carriers in future livestreams as we get closer to December!", and in February of the following year, we still don't even know how they work. Based on their track record, I wouldn't believe anything they said about arming us with knowledge about what they're doing, because they really do seem to have adopted the old "You'll see it when it's finished" approach, which means we don't get to prepare for it - we just cope with it when it hits.

 

[The Nephilim]

Do the sketchy, isolated nature of the game mechanics not bother you? And the lack of complementary content?

Do you not think they might struggle to address stuff like Atmos & Legs mechanics if they use the same delivery system as Horizons?

It just looks like a really dubious path to continue down to me, on those fronts. (But possibly I see the payoff differently, as I don't play ED as my 'one game' / an MMO etc, so it doesn't burn me to lose the content cadence for a bit )

Not really. We've only had one season since launch and that introduced all kinds of features over a 2 year period and I have\had no problem with that.

ED has been my main game since launch apart from when Skyrim SE & Breath of the Wild were released and just recently.

Just my opinion of course

 

[VR Golgot]

Think we've been in enough of the same threads now that you'll know I've also been pointing out for ages that it's a transition from payment in advance to payment on delivery.

But, for what it's worth for this thread, yes, though painful it's a necessary change which will be for the better. As much as the current period of downtime isn't particularly great, it's pretty much a general rule that improvements in the medium to longer term involve negatives in the short term.

In an ideal world they'd have followed the payment on delivery model from the start, but that's only viable if you're in a financial position to pay for all the development costs up front with no major income expected until completion. I don't think FD were necessarily in that position for Horizons, but once they've got into the financial position to make the switch to the better model, they've done so, which is a good thing.

What I would say though is that I don't think we're necessarily getting a full all in one DLC. Well not in the sense of it being that and then nothing until the next major paid for DLC.

What I think we're likely to get is a split between mechanics and content which makes use of those mechanics, as follows:

All-in-one part:

• Major new mechanics
• Overhaul of existing mechanics
• Any networking changes and things like that
• All fundamental assets for the the new mechanics
• Procgen use of the new assets
• A set of assets and other things which are for the non-procgen side of the game.

That's all customer facing stuff, but at the back-end, I suspect there'll be improved tools for doing stuff with the mechanics. There'll need to be the tools for doing things with all the new mechanics anyway, so it would make sense to do a general overhaul.

Post release, what will then happen will be:

• new assets and other non-mechanics stuff being created and added on an ongoing basis (with different timings depending on the scale).
• development of the next major paid DLC, with the next major set of mechanics (and associated assets, etc) coming with that.

It's always possible that there might be a few bits of new mechanics between the paid DLCs as well, but I think the vast majority (if not all) will be in the paid DLCs.

Should be a much improved situation overall following the release of the New Era DLC.

Nice one, yep, this is hopefully the ballpark FDev are aiming for

I do wonder if the current scenario is a basic template for ongoing deliveries though. IE will they continue to go 'majority' on the next DLC, with a more skeletal crew on GAAS / minor updates? Will they still aim to get at least 'one big mechanic' in as a giant carrot, as with Carriers?

I'd like to think they'll be in a slightly better place the second time around, if it comes. IE ideally slightly more staffed up, if the DLC does well, so the GAAS narratives & content can at least be maintained. And possibly able to aim for something a bit more regulated (say a 2 year full production run, with a flagship 'bonus game mechanic' aimed for a year in, for example?)

But who knows with FDev, I'm sure there'll be some playing by ear too

I agree with the OP - the best games are usually the ones built from start to finish before being released to the public, and it's not uncommon for these games to be delayed to make sure everything is as close to perfect in-house as can be. Finishing the construction of a car as it's driving down the road is obviously less effective than building the entire thing in the factory.

Unfortunately more and more games are being released in various states of alpha and early access, and for the most part this scares me away from those games. A perfect example is Infinity: Battlescape, which is in Early Access yet is being sold at full price as if it were a completed game. I'm very interested in that game, but I'm not paying for an unfinished product. Who knows how long, if ever, it will take to actually finish these Early Access games? Even with Elite there is no guarantee that it will ever be finished to the grand vision that David Braben pitched in his developer diary series, but at least I feel I've gotten my money's worth with the gameplay we do have.

I've got a feeling ED is still going to be like a Transformer caught mid-transformation to an extent. Desperately trying to turn it's truckload of technical debt into a pair of working feet, or whatever . (They're still ultimately pursuing an eccentric plan of staged transformations. With the end game being one of those giant robots which has other robots for arms )

But yeah, this still feels like a positive step. If you're aiming to do an ill-advised swan dive with triple pike, it's better to do it from a stable base

As long as FD take this time and update the whole game and not bolt on yet another pointless feature then I'll be happier. The game as it is would be great if ranks, PP, CQC, MC, superpowers etc were all fleshed out better.

I think you might be wishing on star for the whole swoop of unloved core to get a proper visit. I could certainly see a subset getting a revisit though. (For example if the DLC is Legs, then I could definitely see MC getting a rework. And Carriers do have a suggestion of PP shenanigans about them, either pre or post DLC)

A CQC revamp is probably a dream to far . (I do like that dream though)