Sense Of Scale

[Old Duck]

I've always thought that the sense of scale in Elite Dangerous was "off", but having recent played some games in PSVR to then come back to ED, the scale really feels broken. This isn't just because I've gotten used to VR immersion. The best example I can give is Skyrim VR. It's amazing to actually walk around Skyrim, and it does give a more accurate sense of scale, but if I go back to 2D Skyrim, my mind still keeps that sense of scale. Having taken a break from ED, I went back and everything feels tiny, even though I know it's supposed to be huge.

I don't have this problem with any other game. NMS is probably the closest game I have to ED, and things feel to proper scale there. So I'm left wondering if ED is "wrong" in how it's rendering its world on a 2D screen. Sitting in my Anaconda, for example, feels more like a dragster than a massive aircraft-carrier sized spaceship. It really breaks the immersion (say it Yamiks, say it!) to the point where I might go back to flying just small ships to try to recapture the sense of realism.

I've heard people speculate that many of EDs models were originally supposed to be smaller but where then just upscaled to be bigger, and that's why we are sitting in insanely huge cockpits that throw off our sense of scale. I also see hints of this with things like the large landing bays. When transitioning from hangar to surface, those "vents" on the deck must be like three stories high, yet they just look like small vents on the 2D screen, making everything look small as well. Temporal queues (how fast landing pads move, for example) also throws off sense of scale.

I'm curious, being on PS4 and unable to try this for myself, does Star Citizen share this lack of scale, or is ED unique in this regard?

Spoiler

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

Considering Star Citizen doesn't currently have native VR support, it's not really a valid comparison.

With Skyrim, the scale itself is considerably smaller, on the human (or similar life-form) scale, so it's a bit easier to keep that sense of scale.

With ED I think it's the balance between wanting to keep a sense of scale and needing to have the controls and functions you need on the flat monitor. ED's scale becomes much more obvious in VR, that's definitely a thing.

 

[Old Duck]

Considering Star Citizen doesn't currently have native VR support, it's not really a valid comparison..

Most people playing ED don't have VR support either. I'm asking more specifically about the 2D presentation. Most games I play are 2D (flat screen), and they all do a great job of conveying scale without VR. That's not my own experience (perhaps it's subjective) with Elite Dangerous.

I should also clarify I'm talking mostly about the size of my ship, stations, etc. I do get a great sense of scale with landable planets, rings, and the like.

 

[777Driver]

Never had an issue with scale in ED or the size of the ships. Just been away from ED for a month, back in the ships with VR, everything is exactly as it has always been.

As you mention, the only issue I have is things like how quickly the landing pads rotate and move, fine on a monitor since everything looks like a toy, in VR inside a 1000+ tonne ship that is 200m long, feels a bit a strange and unrealistic, whiplash inducing. You get used to it though.

 

[Quester91]

It has been discussed several times and the sense of scale feels off for 3 simple reasons:

1) Acceleration is way too high for ships the size of the ones in Elite, both how ships handle inside space and how they're treated by the game itself during landings, station docking etc is completely off and unrealistic. You can't have a station platform the size of two football fields move 180° in a few seconds. It feels like we're in a f-14 even when we're piloting something the size of the Empire state building.

2) Cockpits are too big compared to the actual pilot seat. Ship is almost double the size of what it should be to cozily fit current cmdr proportions. Once you notice it you can't go back, if you look at your cmdr with the cockpit angle in camera mode it looks almost like an action figure sitting on a bus driver seat.

3) Very low texture resolution of basically everything, planets, stations, ships, ruines, interiors, cockpits, you name it.

 

[Vedmo]

Never done VR yet, so only a 2D experience here, and can't say I've ever really thought much about it. The first time I used an SRV I was going to board an AsPX and remember thinking it was a lot bigger than I had imagined. I don't think I've ever landed a large ship on a planet, might do that now to see how much bigger it looks driving up to it. The Courier, with its ringed cockpit feels more like a small ship than a DBX does.

The real point of this thread is obvious though, you want a front spoiler on the Type-10!

I agree.

 

[777Driver]

2) Cockpits are too big compared to the actual pilot seat. Ship is almost double the size of what it should be to cozily fit current cmdr proportions. Once you notice it you can't go back, if you look at your cmdr with the cockpit angle in camera mode it looks almost like an action figure sitting on a bus driver seat.

Own and flown all ships in VR, the only interior that seems off is the Clipper. That ship feels like it was designed as a smaller ship, then scaled up.

 

[babelfisch]

Own and flown all ships in VR, the only interior that seems off is the Clipper. That ship feels like it was designed as a smaller ship, then scaled up.

The question is, why are our cockpits 5-10 meters tall?

 

[Maro-Val]

No. Star Citizen DOESNT suffer from this problem. IMO Frontier got this terribly wrong. All the people that play in VR seem to NOT have a problem in VR and i tend to believe them ofc, but also makes me think if elite is optimized only for VR. I have a big-ish 2D monitor and i log in to SC every now and then and this is what i have to say: the difference is just huge. Many people seem to share this opinion.
For instance when you are in your srv next to a conda, you can quickly drive from one end of the conda to the other in one or two seconds (correction 3-4 sec), thats simply wrong. It is also a big problem when i try to take some photos with the external camera where the ship simply looks way wrong size.

If you see the below clip that also has a human as reference, it is pure joy on that aspect. I avoid when i can logging in to SC, just because when i come back to elite, it really breaks my immersion to have this feeling of wrong scale.

Just look at the when the ship is touching down.. oh boy!

 

[777Driver]

The question is, why are our cockpits 5-10 meters tall?

Why not? The larger ships, T7/T9/Anaconda/Cutter, bridges are huge, a very nice spacious environment in VR. On the smaller ship like the Cobra it is more Cramped, I can't stand up straight in the Cobra, my head would clip into the ceiling, same deal with the Eagle/sidy etc. Keep in mind the Eagle is larger than a single aisle passenger airliner.


Most important thing is does feel right, and is everything to scale, in VR it certainly is.

 

[cmdrrdmc]

I'm surprised you used Skyrim VR as an example. I found the scale in that game to be really off. Spiders are massive, while NPCs have little heads.

 

[Quester91]

Own and flown all ships in VR, the only interior that seems off is the Clipper. That ship feels like it was designed as a smaller ship, then scaled up.

It's not the only one. DBX has the same exact problem, the pilot inside the cockpit has the same proportions of a 6 years old child in a regular cockpit. Try zooming out to max while in camera mode and looking at the cockpit from the front.

Tell another cmdr to stay still while piloting a cobra and loot at their cmdr model and how proportions are together with canopy and height of the cockpit. It's often times very odd, and sometimes with some ships downright off, just like the cutter.

 

[babelfisch]

No. Star Citizen DOESNT suffer from this problem. IMO Frontier got this terribly wrong. All the people that play in VR seem to NOT have a problem in VR and i tend to believe them ofc, but also makes me think if elite is optimized only for VR. I have a big-ish 2D monitor and i log in to SC every now and then and this is what i have to say: the difference is just huge. Many people seem to share this opinion.
For instance when you are in your srv next to a conda, you can quickly drive from one end of the conda to the other in one or two seconds, thats simply wrong. It is also a big problem when i try to take some photos with the external camera where the ship simply looks way wrong size.

If you see the below clip that also has a human as reference, it is pure joy on that aspect. I avoid when i can logging in to SC, just because when i come back to elite, it really breaks my immersion to have this feeling of wrong scale.

Just look at the when the ship is touching down.. oh boy!

Not sure about your SRV example, it drives 30 m/s...

 

[777Driver]

For instance when you are in your srv next to a conda, you can quickly drive from one end of the conda to the other in one or two seconds, thats simply wrong.

Should take an SRV roughly 3-4 seconds to get from one end of a anaconda to the next (have never done it in a second). Scale is correct in Elite dangerous,you can easily test it by driving at a fixed speed and noting the time vs length of the ship.

 

[Maro-Val]

Not sure about your SRV example, it drives 30 m/s...

Should take an SRV roughly 3-4 seconds to get from one end of a anaconda to the next (have never done it in a second). Scale is correct in Elite dangerous,you can easily test it by driving at a fixed speed and noting the time vs length of the ship.

Yes and yes guys. As all the discussions i have about this matter the first thing that people say is something like the above and i agree. The numbers are correct. If you calculate the distance travelled with the srv due to its said speed, it represents the actual stated length of the given ship i know. It is just feels wrong when actually doing it, thats what i m trying to say. And yea its probabaly more than a second to do it but it just feels wrong for me.

EDIT: How about mining VERY close to a rock? Does the rock feel so much bigger than the ship or not? Or it shouldnt? (Speaking always for a 2D monitor)

 

[dayrth]

For scale to look 'right' on a 2d monitor it has to be somewhat distorted. If ED is to be the correct scale in VR then it will look off on a monitor, despite being accurate.

 

[Iskariot]

Own and flown all ships in VR, the only interior that seems off is the Clipper. That ship feels like it was designed as a smaller ship, then scaled up.

The Vulture's cockpit/bridge size is very, very off too.
On top of that the pilot is seated unnecessary low which severely hampers visibility.
For a combat ship this is very bad design.

 

[Maro-Val]

For scale to look 'right' on a 2d monitor it has to be somewhat distorted. If ED is to be the correct scale in VR then it will look off on a monitor, despite being accurate.

Thats the only conclusion that makes sense.. And it SHOULD be distorted to follow other distorted things, like the srv acceleration rate.

 

[Redomus]

Looks fine on my monitor. Must be one of those subjective user things.

 

[Werewolf13]

Not sure about your SRV example, it drives 30 m/s...

That's not fast at all. 30 m/s is just 66 MPH - slow car on a freeway, get the h.ell out'a my way speed. Probably a little fast for cross country over bumpy terrain though. Then again with the right type of suspension and those big ole tires and low G who's to say 66MPH is too fast.

That said I'm one that is in the, "scale just feels wrong" camp - most ships don't look like their published dimensions - way too small. The size of moons with .5g look and feel small from both space and when on the ground.