Sensor Sensitivity and Gimbal Weapons

I'm wondering if the "Just go with D-rated sensors" is a maxim applying more to the fixed-weapons crowd than those using gimbaled weapons. I'm wondering if gimbal tracking sensitivity might actually play a bigger role across sensor classes than we currently believe.

This note will have little interest for those who only use fixed weapons. Just use D-rated sensors and move along. ;-)

I've looked through the threads on this subject in these forums and other discussion areas, and have seen no testing of the impact of sensor sensitivity (which we're given as the emission detection range threshold) on gimbal (or maybe turret) tracking.Perhaps that's because some of the variables are harder to control.

I wonder if there may be a link between sensor sensitivity (rating) and the ability of gimbals to maintain target track as the target approaches the outer ranges of the gimbal cone.

This is what I *think* we know:

Sensor scan angle is independent from tracking angle. So engineering that changes scanning angle does not impact gimbal weapons' tracking angle.

All sensors have a max range of 8km (gamey, sure, just like weapons ranges, but whaddayagonnado?). But many targets cannot be resolved at that range.

Without engineering, a sensor's typical emission range value (TER) is a function of its class and rating (mostly rating). Think of TER is the range at which a ship with an average heat signature will go from being a 'ghost' contact on your scanners to an actual contact that you can resolve and target.

Your sensor's target detection and resolution ranges (in normal space) are a function of the target ship's aggregate emissions: definitely heat, and some other variables, which may include the target's own active sensor radiation, shield radiation, engine emissions, and the ship's cross section (think radar return).

Using class 4 sensors, for example, A-rated sensors have a typical emissions detection range of 6.72km. D-rated sensors have a typical emissions detection range of 5.04km. Hotter ships you may pick up further away; cooler ships (and ships giving off less other emissions), may not be detected until a little closer.

Now let's look at target locking:

Two distance-related factors can break your target lock on a ship (discounting weapons effects or silent running):
(1) A targeted ship moves outside the range your sensors can resolve it (a function of target emissions and distance).
(2) The targeted ship cools itself below the point your sensors can resolve it, even though the range has not changed (and, yes, these are kind of the same thing, but bear with me).

There is another value your sensors are providing: Target weapons tracking. Just because your sensors can lock a target doesn't mean your gimbals will pick up the track, even if the target is within the gimbaling cone. Gimbal weapons lock on better along your ship's axis than they do near the outside of the cone.

Every gimbal user has experienced the phenomenon where they have a ship is targeted and your gimbals are tracking (and this may happen even at short ranges), but your weapons then lose their tracking even though your sensors maintain a target lock, and even though (seemingly) that ship is within the gimbal tracking cone and has not done anything like pop a heat sink. When that happens you have to maneuver your ship so that the gimbal tracking angle is reduced in order to get the weapons to pick up their target tracking again.

Some ships (Viper MkIII's are notorious to gimbal users for this) have inherently lower emissions and can shake gimbal tracking loose all the time, despite being well within range -- and even when in close combat -- and must frequently be re-acquired by maneuvering your ship to get your gimbals to pick up their lock again.

Here's what I've been wondering:

Those "typical emission range" numbers oddly specific. So there's clearly underlying math (and probably numerous variables) associated with target emissions and detection range. That detection resolution has some kind of fall-off curve and may be a function of the vector off your ship's axis (the tracking cone, if you will).

The same might well be true for target tracking performance, once you have the target locked up. Different sensors might have varying sensitivity fall-off as you depart from the ship's axis toward the outside of the gimbaling cone.

Might the greater sensitivity of A-rated sensors (as exhibited by their longer emissions detection ranges) provide a slightly stronger "lock" on a target near the fringes of the gimbal tracking cone than, say, D-rated sensors? Especially when trying to track ships whose emissions are closer to the sensor's lower tracking margins?

It seems logical: Greater sensor sensitivity would equate to a stronger target gimbal lock, or a stronger lock near the outer edges of the gimbal cone.

How can we test this?
 
Unless FD slipped something under the radar, the last time sensors were to be linked to gimbals some people went into meltdown.

That's true -- but their changes were pretty ham-handed. And in this community, there's inevitably a LOT of outcry over almost any suggested change -- especially where some people feel like the proposed balancing / evolutionary move might cost them some personal competitive advantage.

FDev has certainly indicated they always wanted there to be more subtlety to the various sensor ratings.

I guess my question is: Could there be more subtlety there already? I know the risk of conclusions drawn from anecdotal evidence/experiences. But it feels like there is a difference in the strength of the target weapons lock between one ship and the next, and some sensor ratings and others. But it's such a dynamic environment, it's hard to be certain. ...and it's hard to know what engineering changes might be impacting that, too.
 
Never understood this.

I think the general feeling about Ratings is A=Awesome - E=Eww.

But we know that isn't quite the way it works out, especially if you engineer up a B rated module, for durability AND function.

I wonder if they shouldn't use the opportunity given by freeing up a slot from the Disco scanner, to introduce a new Combat module - maybe an Enhanced Targeting System Module, that improves the base gimbal lock depending on the rating of the module? It would mean very little to those who don't use gimbal and would still need to be slightly less accurate than fixed weapons, but it might be an idea to balance out those who prefer gimbal lock, but to slightly disadvantage these players by using a module slot.
 
I'm sure there is no advantage or disadvantage beyond intitial range/power draw/weight, to the rating of sensors. If there is it's so small as to be indistinguishable. I use G5 long range D rated sensors on all PvE ships (9-10km range), mainly for mass and power draw benefits, and A rated reinforced on pvp ships, or shielded if I have the power overhead.
 
Gimbal tracking arc is influenced by the sensor signature of the target. Very cold targets will result in a very narrow tracking arc, while very hot signatures will max out the arc. I am not entirely sure if sensor quality plays into this by increasing the range at which one gets a good tracking arc, or if it's simply related to the absolute thermal signature of the target, but I suspect the latter.

Anyway, if I'm using enough gimbals to matter, I usually have an emissive weapon which will max out the tracking arc irrespective of the target's heat level or how crappy my sensors are.

If I'm not using SLFs, I almost always have lightweight D sensors. If I am using SLFs, I have lightweight A sensors.
 
Anyway, if I'm using enough gimbals to matter, I usually have an emissive weapon which will max out the tracking arc irrespective of the target's heat level or how crappy my sensors are.

If I'm not using SLFs, I almost always have lightweight D sensors. If I am using SLFs, I have lightweight A sensors.

As do I. Where my idle conjecture comes in is with builds where that emissive add creates more heat that I want. If an A-rated sensor gave me a slightly better tracking cone over a D-rated one, there are some builds where that difference might make the weight/power penalty worthwhile. I'll admit that the margin is probably so subtle that there're more important optimizations. But still...

But now I'm curious: As a heavy SLF user myself, why does the use of your SLF impact your choice of sensor?
 
Unless FD slipped something under the radar, the last time sensors were to be linked to gimbals some people went into meltdown.

This. Always go for D sensors. If yo uare a gimbal scrub use emissive that maxes out your gimbal aiming angle at all times ad all distances for the duration of the effect. A single shell of a multicannon is enough. Also overrides silent running at all ranges and allows missiles to lock on. Totally broken and there is no counter to emissive.
 
Frontier said sensors have no impact on gimbals accuracy, and the changes to gimbal tracking angle based on sensor quality didn't make it.

There hasn't been any patch note saying otherwise.
 
As do I. Where my idle conjecture comes in is with builds where that emissive add creates more heat that I want. If an A-rated sensor gave me a slightly better tracking cone over a D-rated one, there are some builds where that difference might make the weight/power penalty worthwhile. I'll admit that the margin is probably so subtle that there're more important optimizations. But still...

But now I'm curious: As a heavy SLF user myself, why does the use of your SLF impact your choice of sensor?

I can see not having room for the emissive effect, but having one of your smaller weapons double it's thermal load should only be an issue with the most sensitive of builds.

I take higher rated sensors when using SLFs because any ship that can carry the SLF will handle the increase in mass well, and being able to target foes to send SLFs at them before I'm inundated with TLB PA balls is handy. It's also why my vette has an emissive MC, despite having neither gimbals nor missiles.
 
Never understood this.

I think the general feeling about Ratings is A=Awesome - E=Eww.

But we know that isn't quite the way it works out, especially if you engineer up a B rated module, for durability AND function.

I wonder if they shouldn't use the opportunity given by freeing up a slot from the Disco scanner, to introduce a new Combat module - maybe an Enhanced Targeting System Module, that improves the base gimbal lock depending on the rating of the module? It would mean very little to those who don't use gimbal and would still need to be slightly less accurate than fixed weapons, but it might be an idea to balance out those who prefer gimbal lock, but to slightly disadvantage these players by using a module slot.

Or they could just reintroduce sensor grades to do this job and stop listening to the bleating
 
Frontier said sensors have no impact on gimbals accuracy, and the changes to gimbal tracking angle based on sensor quality didn't make it.

And thus ends the thread. It's really too bad -- kind of makes it another why-bother module (like the planetary approach suite) -- just taking up space but not really providing any meaningful addition to your ship outfitting or performance tuning (or at least once you gain the ability to engineer them).

The ratings affect scan range and supposedly handle the weapon targeting ... but once you can engineer them the only reason to go with anything other than D-long range is if you think need more durability. ...and, really, aside from AX combat (where minor module durability can often be a consideration), of all the sub-systems, who out there targets sensors before FSD or power plant?

Thanks all for participating. Was an entertaining diversion while it lasted.
 
who out there targets sensors before FSD or power plant?

Sensors aren't even a targetable subsystem. The hit location is still there, but you can't select it, and finding out where the module is and doing damage to it without being able to target it is extremely difficult.

It used to be targetable, but they removed it cause we would shoot it out before there was a reboot/repair functionality, condemning the target to destruction, because they couldn't request docking permission.

Anyway, if it were still targetable, I would definitely make it a priority as it's more exposed and lower integrity on most vessels and losing it dramatically reduces the effectiveness of PAs (no lead indicator) and long range rails (no target selection means no microgimbaling at range).

As soon as they added reboot/repair they should have restored the subsystem target, would have made sensor integrity relevant and encouraged the use of weapons that retain a high degree of functionality without sensors.
 
Sensors aren't even a targetable subsystem. The hit location is still there, but you can't select it, and finding out where the module is and doing damage to it without being able to target it is extremely difficult.

It used to be targetable, but they removed it cause we would shoot it out before there was a reboot/repair functionality, condemning the target to destruction, because they couldn't request docking permission.

Anyway, if it were still targetable, I would definitely make it a priority as it's more exposed and lower integrity on most vessels and losing it dramatically reduces the effectiveness of PAs (no lead indicator) and long range rails (no target selection means no microgimbaling at range).

As soon as they added reboot/repair they should have restored the subsystem target, would have made sensor integrity relevant and encouraged the use of weapons that retain a high degree of functionality without sensors.

Interesting...

Out of interest where abouts are the sensors usually located? Asking for a friend... Who likes big cannon!
 
Interesting...

Out of interest where abouts are the sensors usually located? Asking for a friend... Who likes big cannon!

Usually directly in front of, or directly above, the canopy.

I think they are still external modules as well, as I've been able to damage them with non-penetrator dumbfires.
 
It would make sense that better sensors equals better tracking for weapons .

I've pondered this myself when choosing sensors but could not find any info so always went cheap on the sensor.

They need some love and reasons to invest in better upgraded versions after all line of sight should not really out do a sensor?
 
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