Ship Scale Problem

being able to whip the nose of an Anaconda or Cutter as fast as we can without it breaking off under the stress this would generate certainly doesn't help.

The real problem here is that these aren't good space ship models behaving like space ships would in space. They're boats behaving like airplanes would at much slower speeds than we're actually flying.

The only "accurate" space ships I could point to are the ship models from Babylon-5. At least the human ships which were subject to laws of physics.
 
being able to whip the nose of an Anaconda or Cutter as fast as we can without it breaking off under the stress this would generate certainly doesn't help.

I take it you have a big space ship to be able to make those assertions? Given we can go lightspeed, why not an indestructible lightweight alloy?

If anything all ships in E: D look fairly realistic if not outright seeming to be snatched from some NASA visionaries.
 
being able to whip the nose of an Anaconda or Cutter as fast as we can without it breaking off under the stress this would generate certainly doesn't help.

The real problem here is that these aren't good space ship models behaving like space ships would in space. They're boats behaving like airplanes would at much slower speeds than we're actually flying.

The only "accurate" space ships I could point to are the ship models from Babylon-5. At least the human ships which were subject to laws of physics.

Yep. It is a physics problem and people can just tell that things are off. My DBS can hover over a landing pad, for instance, and I can thrust left and right and it changes direction quickly. That is why it feels like a game. The limit on rate of change in direction isn't what the thrusters can do, it is the g - force the occupants can withstand and the g-force on the materials that hold the ship together that determine the maximum rate the ship can change direction. (during normal operation)
 
I take it you have a big space ship to be able to make those assertions? Given we can go lightspeed, why not an indestructible lightweight alloy?

If anything all ships in E: D look fairly realistic if not outright seeming to be snatched from some NASA visionaries.

with enough handwavium you can explain anything. I'm saying it just doesn't "feel" right. it doesn't behave in a way that your brain thinks it should. no way around it. Same way you know Godzilla is just a guy in a rubber suit stomping on cardboard boxes. Also, I'm not aware of any NASA space ships that look like boats.

I don't remember exactly where I saw this, but I believe DB or one of the developers said that they were looking to WWII dogfighting as a flight model rather than actual real space travel (which would, for example, have no velocity limits). Now....start dogfighting in 747's and aircraft carriers and you're going to have some realism problems.
 
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with enough handwavium you can explain anything. I'm saying it just doesn't "feel" right. it doesn't behave in a way that your brain thinks it should. no way around it. Same way you know Godzilla is just a guy in a rubber suit stomping on cardboard boxes. Also, I'm not aware of any NASA space ships that look like boats.

You understand that aircraft carriers are quite sturdy, and larger than an anaconda right?

The only ship in the game that looks like a boat is the anaconda, and its good, love it...

Any other questions?
 
You understand that aircraft carriers are quite sturdy, and larger than an anaconda right?

The only ship in the game that looks like a boat is the anaconda, and its good, love it...

Any other questions?

Not a question, but a thought experiment. Take an aircraft carrier, remove it from the water that's supporting it's weight, and holding it by the back where the thrusters are flip it around as fast as they do in the same with engineered thrusters.

now...count the pieces.
 
Not a question, but a thought experiment. Take an aircraft carrier, remove it from the water that's supporting it's weight, and holding it by the back where the thrusters are flip it around as fast as they do in the same with engineered thrusters.

now...count the pieces.
why? Its an aircraft carrier... are you ok?

If you mean to say that ships need water to maintain their shape, google has a few pictures of ships on drydock.
 
You understand that aircraft carriers are quite sturdy, and larger than an anaconda right?

The only ship in the game that looks like a boat is the anaconda, and its good, love it...

Any other questions?

I don't think Ted is trying to hate on the Anaconda.

Just imagine what it is like for the pilot in that ship or any ship, though, during combat. Even if the ship was so strong it would hold together, the pilot can't withstand but so much.
 
why? Its an aircraft carrier... are you ok?

If you mean to say that ships need water to maintain their shape, google has a few pictures of ships on drydock.

ok...never mind. you're right.

I'm just glad that they don't put people who think that things the size of aircraft carriers and 747's should be able to dogfight like WWII airplanes and look realistic doing it in charge of....well...anything.
 
That is why it feels like a game.

I guess concessions have to be made in the interests of balance of entertainment vs reality. Personally, I would love a more "simmy" Elite, but I appreciate that the developers needed to balance some things in the interests of entertaining gameplay. Anyway, isn't it all achieved via "inertial dampers" ?? ;-) (and shouldn't there therefore be a module for that...?)
 
I guess concessions have to be made in the interests of balance of entertainment vs reality. Personally, I would love a more "simmy" Elite, but I appreciate that the developers needed to balance some things in the interests of entertaining gameplay. Anyway, isn't it all achieved via "inertial dampers" ?? ;-) (and shouldn't there therefore be a module for that...?)

shut up, Westley!
 
I'm just glad that they don't put people who think that things the size of aircraft carriers and 747's should be able to dogfight like WWII airplanes and look realistic doing it in charge of....well...anything.

I take it you have never flown a conda? "people who think that things the size of aircraft carriers and 747's should be able to dogfight like WWII airplanes" literally no one thinks that, because its not so...
 
The real problem here is that these aren't good space ship models behaving like space ships would in space.

Agree that heavy ships (in fact all ships) are far too manoeuvrable for us fragile humans, but for a reason, it is a game. The game models g force (extreme blackouts and readout tolerances) crew and passengers internal organs would be reduced to liquid after most basic boost maneuvers. However, keep in mind that a very common statement on this forum is 'The T9 and Cutter handle like bricks' So we have a fairly large difference between a laden T9 and a GU97.

Also understand the devs stance on all of this, we are locked into a gameplay style that is focused on combat, so it needs to be more Star Wars than space engine.

What I struggle to wrap my head around is this talk of realism. We are talking about thousands of years of tech advancement (remember 200 years ago a turbofan would be considered magical technology beyond human comprehension) Roll/Pitch rates between large & small aircraft are handled by flight control laws these days, you can ask any pilot transitioning from from an A320 '70 tonnes', and a A340 '360/ tonnes' ask them what handling is like, they will say pretty much identical. Larger control surfaces on the A340 gives greater roll authority, in ED larger thrusters give greater roll authority..

If we want to talk about realism based on the current progress of mankind, we sit in automated ships with gradual acceleration and extremely limited roll/pitch/yaw authority, not much fun for most.

Obisdian Ant knows the answer to his question, you either buy VR and experience everything in correct scale, or stick with monitors and use your imagination to fill in the gaps, or play games like Freespace that exaggerate scales by extreme amounts to fool the brain.
 
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Agree that heavy ships (in fact all ships) are far too manoeuvrable for us fragile humans, but for a reason, it is a game. The game models g force (extreme blackouts and readout tolerances) crew and passengers internal organs would be reduced to liquid after most basic boost maneuvers. However, keep in mind that a very common statement on this forum is the 'The T9 and Cutter handle like bricks' So we have a fairly large difference between a laden T9 and a GU97.

Also understand the devs stance on all of this, we are locked into a gameplay style that is focused on combat, so it needs to be more Star Wars than space engine.

What I struggle to wrap my head around is this talk of realism. We are talking about thousands of years of tech advancement (remember 200 years ago a turbofan would be considered magical technology beyond human comprehension) Roll/Pitch rates between large & small aircraft are handled by flight control laws these days, you can ask any pilot transitioning from from an A320 '70 tonnes', and a A340 '380/ tonnes' ask them what handling is like, they will say pretty much identical. Larger control surfaces on the A340 gives greater roll authority, in ED larger thrusters give greater roll authority..

If we want to talk about realism based on the current progress of mankind, we sit in automated ships with gradual acceleration and extremely limited roll/pitch/yaw authority, not much fun for most.

Obisdian Ant knows the answer to his question, you either buy VR and experience everything in correct scale, or stick with monitors and use your imagination to fill in the gaps, or play games like Freespace that exaggerate scales by extreme amounts to fool the brain.

as a matter of fact, I play Elite ONLY in VR.
 
Also understand the devs stance on all of this, we are locked into a gameplay style that is focused on combat, so it needs to be more Star Wars than space engine.

What I struggle to wrap my head around is this talk of realism.

I am sure ObsidianAnt doesn't mind us having a conversation about a topic he wanted to explore. What is so hard to understand about why we are talking about realism?

Because ObsidianAnt wants us to.
 
I am sure ObsidianAnt doesn't mind us having a conversation about a topic he wanted to explore. What is so hard to understand about why we are talking about realism?

Because ObsidianAnt wants us to.

Correct, it is a discussion, I am wondering why realism comes into it.
 
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