That's why you can find mass of the ships as well as the optimal thrust ratios in my second post and the calculations of the thrust per weight ratios as well. I did not perform these calculations for the smaller ships.
Ships' manoevrability, analysis of the specifications and actual manoeuvrability
- Thread starter Aleksej
- Start date
That's why you can find mass of the ships as well as the optimal thrust ratios in my second post and the calculations of the thrust per weight ratios as well. I did not perform these calculations for the smaller ships.
I'm glad I found this thread... The other day I decided to take a stab at shooting down a pirate CMDR piloted clipper in my viper with "A" thrusters. He had just interdicted a T6 doing a trade run, and following in a tight circle, I dropped out of space right on top of both of them. As the battle started, I quickly realized I bit off more than I could chew. No matter WHAT I DID... I could not turn on the clipper. I consider myself a pretty decent pilot and know how to turn my viper as fast as possible... but it wasn't possible to get behind this guy. Eventually I had to run... BUT, you can't outrun a clipper. He got me. My only hope is it gave the T6 enough time to SC out.
(edit: ah oh yeah.. the jerk didn't even have the courtesty of a final shot. He shot out my thrusters, and then just left me there spinning in space. At least finish me off and take your fine. Or be a woman and don't, whatever)
Last edited:
Yep, the nose does pitch around very quickly. But ship direction of travel is slow like a T9. It's still unclear if NPCs have the same restrictions as players - seems like they have some magical things like thrusters to allow them to remain at full throttle when exiting SC.
But buy one and try it if there's any doubts about how slow the ship actually changes course versus how quickly it can point it's nose around
Edit: you know there's tricks you can learn to make these slow ships perform! And the Dropship can become quite maneuverable if you learn them! This topic, though, was about comparing the pitch time to the ships maneuverability rating which really can't be done since there isn't a direct relationship between these alone. One would have to consider the other variables (used in the ship maneuverability rating) before making comparisons. And these other variables are unknown at the moment. Comparing pitch or roll rates against each other is fine but it doesn't mean that the quicker turning ship in one axis will be more maneaverable in general - only in the one axis. And this may have little influence on the ships direction of travel.
Last edited:
That's what you get for attacking a ship worth at least 150 times your ship
Attackin a Clipper with a Viper - the gall!
That's what you get for attacking a ship worth at least 150 times your ship
Attackin a Clipper with a Viper - the gall!
Definitely not. Viper has about the same velocity as the Clipper but should be more manoeuvrable. However, currently Clipper is more manoeuvrable than most of the ships. When a Python was more manoeuvrable there were a lot of complaints about that. So what's the problem now with criticism regarding Clippers manoeuvrability? This sounds inconsistent to me.
While i hate nerf balance bobbins, there is one thing in games which is important to me.
All ships should be different. Some slow. Some fast. Some like bricks some maneuverable.
But when one ship becomes the go to ship some thing is wrong. I think the clipper might be becoming that ship possibly. All ships should have a potential with no one choice.
All ships should be different. Some slow. Some fast. Some like bricks some maneuverable.
But when one ship becomes the go to ship some thing is wrong. I think the clipper might be becoming that ship possibly. All ships should have a potential with no one choice.
Last edited:
Oh really? Somehow I didn't notice my Clipper having as good lateral thrusters as the Viper. If you wanna talk about manoeuverability, then you have to take into account 6DOF. Otherwise it makes little sense.
Cobra also has a much more powerfull pitch than a Viper - should it also be nerfed?
Pitch != manoeuverability.
Besides, 3A thrusters on the Viper (the maximum you can get) are rated for optimal weight of 120T (combat vipers are usually around 105T). 6A thrusters on the Clipper are rated for optimal weight of 1,440T - a combat Clipper is probably below 900T.
So to summarize - you are comparing a ship with MUCH smaller thrusters, with weight slightly below the optimal weight to a ship that has MUCH bigger thrusters, and is MUCH below the optimal weight...
And all of that doesn't even take into account the amount of drifting you have on the Clipper. So yeah, it is agile, but it has it downsides. Pretty balanced in my opinion.
The Imperial Clipper is the quintessential Imperial ship. It epitomises elegance of form while delivering speed and agility. - and there's also that.
I never complained. I was perfectly happy to have the Python as it was and to see its owners happy. But then BALANCE happened, which is the one thing that makes everything bland and uninteresting. People who complained about the Python probably still have issues killing them (because it's still a beast) and Python owners are dissapointed because something they worked for for weeks got nerfed. What is the upside in all this?
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
It costs (relatively) too much, it's unavailable until you grind the rank and has terrible hardpoint placement. Three reasons for it not becoming the "go to" ship.
Last edited:
If due to faster pitch the one ship can perform the combat turn (which is definitely a manoeuvre) faster than the other one than it due to higher manoeuvrability.
In fact I think that Viper's pitch might be increased, I think something weird has happened to it during Beta testing.
And that's explainable, Python was so much better than a Clipper and a Dropship that most of the players simply skipped that ships. Now after the Python was significantly rebalanced in 1.1 (and is the only ship that has undergone rebalancing) there are more players flying other ships. And most of the players admit superior manoeuvrability of the Clipper, which seems slightly wrong taking into account that a Clipper is a large and heavy ship. Moreover, I am pointing this out yet again according to the stats a Clipper should be as manoeuvrable as an Anaconda, which is definitely not the case. And IMO this should be fixed. And I can say the same about the Dropship. Moreover, it relates to the Dropship at larger degree.
Some stats should be increased, some stats decreased but if we do not speak about this - nothing is going to be changed.
EDIT: Clipper does not have better manoeuvrability thrusters in comparison to a Python. Actually it has the same thrusters. It is the max velocity that is different. And max vertical and lateral velocities are received by multiplying the max forward velocity to a certain coefficient. So these parameters as well as backward velocity are dependent on the ships max velocity, and as Clipper is faster than Python it has faster vertical/lateral and backward velocities.
However forward/backward, vertical, lateral axes are translational axes.
What affects manoeuvrability the most are rotational axes, namely pitch/roll/yaw. As yaw is weak I am going to omit it. Roll does not allow you to change the direction (vector) of the flight, hence the only main parameter that affect manoeuvrability is pitch. Definitely you can affect pitch speed to some degree with vertical thrust but most probably this can allow you to perform a faster turn within 180 degrees, however, if you are going to make a 360 degree it should take the same time as without applying additional thrust. If you win something somewhere, you are going to lose something elsewhere.
If we talk about the manoeuvrability it is affected by the thrust, i.e. manoeuvrability sweet spot and pips diverted to engines.
Last edited:
Funny how each time someone mentioned Viper's inferior pitch when compared to the Cobra, he/she was eaten alive on this board
And Viper does turn faster, other ships just rotate with a higher speed, but they need much more time to actually start moving in the direction the nose is pointing.Again, because you might've not seen my stealth edit before:
The Imperial Clipper is the quintessential Imperial ship. It epitomises elegance of form while delivering speed and agility.
It IS SUPPOSED to be agile. It's in the freaking description of the ship!
In light of my quote above, taken straight from the game, there is apparently an error in displayed stats, not in the actual performance of the craft. It would be ridiculous if the Clipper was as manouverable as a ship twice it's size/weight.
Nor should it be changed IMO. As it is now, Clipper is exactly what it's described to be. Can't say much about the Dropship, having never owned one.
We have pitch, roll, yaw, and +/- delta velocity as measurable factors.
What's missing is the "feel" of the ship, or how it responds to control inputs. Fast? Slow? Linear, or log curve? That's subjective, and hard to objectively measure.
Most would agree that the Eagle is a wonderful ship to fly. Most would agree that a T9 Lakon is not.
More hard data is required.
What's missing is the "feel" of the ship, or how it responds to control inputs. Fast? Slow? Linear, or log curve? That's subjective, and hard to objectively measure.
Most would agree that the Eagle is a wonderful ship to fly. Most would agree that a T9 Lakon is not.
More hard data is required.
Funny how each time someone mentioned Viper's inferior pitch when compared to the Cobra, he/she was eaten alive on this board
Again, because you might've not seen my stealth edit before:
The Imperial Clipper is the quintessential Imperial ship. It epitomises elegance of form while delivering speed and agility.
It IS SUPPOSED to be agile. It's in the freaking description of the ship!
In light of my quote above, taken straight from the game, there is apparently an error in displayed stats, not in the actual performance of the craft. It would be ridiculous if the Clipper was as manouverable as a ship twice it's size/weight.
Nor should it be changed IMO. As it is now, Clipper is exactly what it's described to be. Can't say much about the Dropship, having never owned one.
And now I hear exactly the same statement for the Clipper as regarding the Python before. I.e. it should not be changed - this is the sense of trouble.
According to the same reference Python should be slow and sturdy. I would not call it slow then. So I take the descriptions given for the ships there with a great grain of salt.
Moreover, there was an idea behind Clippers agility stated as 2. So may be according to its role defined by the devs it should be at that level. Clipper has a great advantage over most of the other ships and it is its velocity.
I've seen clippers in boost, and they are MUCH faster than a viper. Somebody correct me, but I think I saw 440 m/s? My viper with class A engines hits about 408 or 410.
Bah, bullcrapola. Had my ship had a manouverability advantage (which I thought was the case), I was sure I would be able to get behind him, and stay there, do some dmg, get the T6 out of there, and then SC my way to safety. Nope... clipper could out turn me EVERY single time.That's what you get for attacking a ship worth at least 150 times your ship
Attackin a Clipper with a Viper - the gall!
Last edited:
The clipper's rating is currently correct, as you have missed one key point about the ship. While it's pitch rate is quite decent, the reason why it gets such a bad maneuverability rating is because it's lateral thrusters are completely horrible. This means that a python actually still has a much easier time aiming compared to the clipper. So no, I do not believe that it needs to be changed at all, and I have no personal stake in it right now as I fly an anaconda for now.
Can you explain me how translational thrusters affect manoeuvrability aside from keeping the ship in the manoeuvrability sweet spot? I can understand that vertical thrusters may allow you to make an 180 degree pitch up faster but then you lose your velocity and basically you ship almost stops at 0 velocity, hence you lose manoeuvrability and 360 degree turn would require about the same time. Moreover, the other ship can perform the same manoeuvre negating all you efforts. Due to much slower yaw lateral thrusters won't give that much benefit.
Last edited:
I see no logic in changing something just for the sake of change, and I haven't read one thing here that would convince me anything needs changing.
You started the thread about the pitch axis - ONE axis out of SIX that are available to us. You ignored me when I wrote about 6DOF. This is space, you wanna talk manouverability, you consider all the factors, not just one chosen to validate your point.
It is slow and sturdy. A boost speed of 280 is not fast.
i think that's aimed at the "drift" which is much more noticeable on some ships. Clipper and Asp have it strongly... on the Python barely present.
Actual boost for the Python is around 340m/s with A6 thrusters and 260 m/s is max velocity.
I commented about 6DOF already twice. It might allow you to perform a 180 faster but then your ship is going to nearly stop losing the manoeuvrability for the other 180. Moreover, another ship can do exactly the same taking the same benefit. So the most significant effect is from staying in the blue zone.
"Strongly" is an understatement
I almost fell out of my chair the first time I tried putting the Clipper through the letterbox at high speed and coming from behind the station. I'm more careful now If this was the case then we need to use the right terms in order to understand each other.
But anyway I do not see drift on this video, while a Clipper makes a 360 pitch up in less than 10s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fURFH04vzxA#t=8m00
"Strongly" is an understatement
I know what you mean...
Last time i flew a Clipper was still in Beta... but i will never forget my first attempt at a "dive bomber landing".