Shooting the space cops

[Nitross]

I get that I should pay reparation if I hit someone innocent - police or otherwise - by accident. The system is also pretty lenient if you do so while targeting another ship.

What I don't get is the "kill on sight" system wide bounty when you do accidentally target the wrong ship or fire a split second before the wanted status is confirmed.

There are some cases where I feel a "Fine" rather than a "Bounty" would be a better punishment instead of a 6 minute timeout out of system because you do not want to get killed for less than 1000 cr.

Problem is how to calculate when the fines should become a bounty to avoid abuse of a "softer" system.
Transform bounties for early attacks on wanted ships to fines when you confirm the wanted status?
All fines until you get marked as responsible for a kill? Then it just adds to your bounty?
Is the current system that attributes kills good enough for that?

I'm not sure...

Or maybe another way around would be a system to "surrender" by retracting hardpoints? Then, if you're not flagged for a murder and/or depending on the attributes of the system security (politics type, friendliness with the cmdr), it could be converted to a fine?

There is a lot of potential to add more depth to the crime and punishment system, but there is a challenge involved in making it more complex as it could either trivialize the risks of going into combat or make it so tedious that the game is no longer fun.

 

[Allchemyst]

He basically want to eliminate the oh man I am in deep trouble and I best get the hell out of here before I am dead. With Stow your weapons and not be attacked and be able to run away with little or no damage.

95% of players in this situation aren't in "deep trouble" because they fly something that can easily withstand or outrun police response. Stop pretending space cops are a serious threat. FD is going to have to buff them a lot for this to become the case.

This mechanic is only "dangerous" to beginners or people who insist on playing in an eagle.

And no, I don't want to remove the "oh man I am in deep trouble and I best get the hell out of here before I am dead", because that's not how it feels.

I want to remove the "Oh my, why does the stupid police AI behave like terminator psychos and not actual space police? This is riddiculous"

Immersion, gameplay depth, credible AI > gratuitous difficulty for the sake of it.


It's perfectly normal that my suggestion wouldn't be implemented in warzones because those are... warzones, no quarters given. But the police is the police, and should behave like so.

I still have at least 6 different and very good reasons for proposing this change that you still cower from and refuse to even acknowledge, Lestat. Adress them instead of focusing on "difficulty".



Also, let me remind future readers :

The essence of my proposition : "the police forces accept surrender from low-bounty pilots who commit mistakes as long as they lower weapons".

your response :

If you are getting your ideas from cop Fictional TV shows. It not the truth. Maybe a little research could help you with that.

I have no idea what you're trying to do here, but your arguments have stopped being coherent a long time ago.

 

[vampireuk]

The security forces do not take prisoners, they will blast your ship out of the sky if you attack them. If you don't want to be attacked by them then do not shoot them. It really is not that difficult.

 

[Allchemyst]

The security forces do not take prisoners, they will blast your ship out of the sky if you attack them. If you don't want to be attacked by them then do not shoot them. It really is not that difficult.

That's like that german minister who said drugs are illegal because they are forbidden...

Stating how things are is not a defense of the current state of things.

And it does not constitute a proper argument against changing how things work.

 

[vampireuk]

You can throw a tantrum as much as you like, the fact is that if you shoot the security services then they will attack you back. Why would you expect anything different? Maybe learn to shoot just your target?

 

[Allchemyst]

You can throw a tantrum as much as you like, the fact is that if you shoot the security services then they will attack you back. Why would you expect anything different? Maybe learn to shoot just your target?

You're still just restating what things are, and you're not saying why the current situation is preferable to my suggestion.

I don't think we understand eachother properly... I've always said they should attack you when you hit them, and that they shouldn't at all give you any chance if you do so consistently. What I'm suggesting is that we should get a middle ground where the police accept a surrender.

Why should we expect anything different? Because it's illogical for the police, especially when they are fighting true pirates (who are a real threat), to waste their energy on poor-shot civilians who lowered their weapons, as long as said civilians either leave or keep their weapons down. It does not make sense. It is not a credible behavior.

I'll repeat myself from a few posts ago :

"Let's say there's a shooting between cops and whoever else, and I, being armed, attempt to help them. If I inadvertedly shoot one of the cops, they have to assume I'm a threat, that's a no-brainer. They are expected to try and take me down.

However if, upon realizing what I've done, I drop my weapon, get on the floor and no longer constitute a threat... They have strictly no reason to keep shooting. More importantly, it's their job to stop shooting so the offender can be judged. They'll arrest me later for criminal incompetence or whatnot or throw a heavy fine up my rear...

But they won't just keep shooting on people who surrender and drop their weapons."

So tell me why this scenario, which is precisely what would happend in the real world, dosen't make sense to you.

And how about you tell me : Why is it unthinkable to you that police forces - peace-keeping forces, mind you - would employ minimal violence?

This isin't a tantrum... I'm writing a lot because the issue is more complex than you seem to want to admit, and it cannot be encompassed by a single sentence, that's all.

All I want is for ED, which is as much a space sim as it is a "game", to simulate human behavior as properly as possible.

 

[vampireuk]

The game will not change because you do not like this. If you don't want to be shot by the security forces then it is quite simple to avoid.

 

[Lestat]

The game will not change because you do not like this. If you don't want to be shot by the security forces then it is quite simple to avoid.

Ya tried explaining use what in front of you. Sound, Radar and Visual. Even how to make some things better. Like better sound system or VR head tracker devices. Also use defense weapons to help escape.

The stow your weapons and police stop attacking make combat kinda lame and too easy.

 

[Allchemyst]

The game will not change because you do not like this. If you don't want to be shot by the security forces then it is quite simple to avoid.

Actually... The only reason those forums even exist is that people don't like a part of the current implementation and would prefer if it were done differently, or want something changed...

The only reason games are changed at all by their publishers is because people tell them they don't like certain things. If you believe differently, then the suggestions forum is useless... what are you even doing here?

Ya tried explaining use what in front of you. Sound, Radar and Visual. Even how to make some things better. Like better sound system or VR head tracker devices. Also use defense weapons to help escape.

The stow your weapons and police stop attacking make combat kinda lame and too easy.

Okay, neither of you has even tried to adress any of the arguments I've proposed. Not once. And Lestat's still rehashing the same tune for the 23d time.

This is a pure waste of time at this point.


I'll leave it to other readers to figure out who's making the most sense.

So long! o7

 

[dunno]

I'll leave it to other readers to figure out who's making the most sense.

You make sense.

I've never understood why folks jump into valid arguments in a feedback channel just to say "suck it up, its how it is", A good idea that is well motivated with logic and reason trumps the "its how it is crowd", I wonder if this crowd realises how many changes are brought about due to suggestions and feedback.

I've noticed a (welcome) decrease in the SC distance between stars and ports, did the Dev's implement this due to the "its how it is" crowd or because critics started posting video reviews of ED gameplay which was 20 mins of stars whizzing past in SC ?.

To the "its how it is" crowd, constructive criticism of anything is how its improved, "its how it is, suck it up" is as constructive as a fire fighting station floating in the pacific, thousands of miles from nowhere.

 

[Allchemyst]

You make sense.

I've never understood why folks jump into valid arguments in a feedback channel just to say "suck it up, its how it is", A good idea that is well motivated with logic and reason trumps the "its how it is crowd", I wonder if this crowd realises how many changes are brought about due to suggestions and feedback.

I've noticed a (welcome) decrease in the SC distance between stars and ports, did the Dev's implement this due to the "its how it is" crowd or because critics started posting video reviews of ED gameplay which was 20 mins of stars whizzing past in SC ?.

To the "its how it is" crowd, constructive criticism of anything is how its improved, "its how it is, suck it up" is as constructive as a fire fighting station floating in the pacific, thousands of miles from nowhere.

Well, there's no problem with being fine about the status quo, and even in preferring it to any other idea. Being furiously inept at defending why, however... That should be a felony.

As for the SC distances, from my quite extensive experience, FD haven't changed anything since the universe was generated. It's just that we've learned collectively not to bother with anything past 1-5k LS from a star, and engineers have kicked our FSDs up in the sky.

But hey, cheers to a great game getting better!

 

[through the hole backwards]

Have you tried the "not shooting the cops " game mechanic?

 

[DocLooshkin]

Hello, Storrez.

To restate your original post, for the benefit of those of us who have forgotten what it was, after reading the ensuing thread:

Greetings commanders

It's really annoying when you accidentally shoot a cop and them you have to get out of that system to avoid destruction, specially in combat zones.
One solution for this is giving a delay(10-15 seconds should do it) before the bounty becomes oficial and give the player an opportunity to pay this bounty using a link in the chat, i guess it's an easy fix for this, what do you guys think ?

Best Regards,
Commander Storrez

As you're doubtlessly now aware, this has been an issue since even before the PC version launched in late 2014. It's a lot friendlier than it used to be, but it's still quite harsh on occasion. While practise and better spatial awareness helps a lot, there are still situations where players have no real way to avoid occasional accidents.

There are plenty of things - from players obliged to run on low-end systems or quit playing, to Windows deciding to do something stupid, to ED itself glitching out - that can sometimes butcher the frame-rate enough that another ship can slip into the line of fire and take damage or explode, with no real opportunity for the player to react.

I've had this happen to me - and I can also attest to the ultra-rare subsequent situation of my own Point Defence module somehow blowing up a weakened SAV, while my weapons were stowed and I was already in the process of running away. It may or may not have been fixed since, but I definitely didn't see that one coming - and have no real idea how to avoid it, should it recur, short of never carrying PD modules or never going Bounty Hunting, neither of which are ideal choices for me.

I think there is enough good reason for FD to implement a more nuanced approach towards friendly-fire situations. I'm not sure insta-fine-payment is the right idea, though: for a player like myself, who's been doing this for years, it does seem far too easy - and it does seem like a very exploitable thing for those inclined to abuse either the game or other players.

Another suggestion made here is to require the player to merely stow weapons and leave the instance - re-entering if they wish to continue. It's not a bad idea, but a bit too easy and gamey for my tastes.

A slightly stronger approach might be to have the commander stow weapons to signal surrender, then issue a fine which requires them to return to a local station and pay it off, before it turns into a bounty. A countdown already exists for when the canopy blows out - I would think it shouldn't require too much dev-time to repurpose that mechanic for this purpose. It might have interesting effects on local crime-rates, if the nearest station is too many LS away - and experienced players might need to think strategically about their ship-choices, when bounty-hunting in systems where there are no large pads to land on.

 

[Allchemyst]

Hello, Storrez.

To restate your original post, for the benefit of those of us who have forgotten what it was, after reading the ensuing thread:



As you're doubtlessly now aware, this has been an issue since even before the PC version launched in late 2014. It's a lot friendlier than it used to be, but it's still quite harsh on occasion. While practise and better spatial awareness helps a lot, there are still situations where players have no real way to avoid occasional accidents.

There are plenty of things - from players obliged to run on low-end systems or quit playing, to Windows deciding to do something stupid, to ED itself glitching out - that can sometimes butcher the frame-rate enough that another ship can slip into the line of fire and take damage or explode, with no real opportunity for the player to react.

I've had this happen to me - and I can also attest to the ultra-rare subsequent situation of my own Point Defence module somehow blowing up a weakened SAV, while my weapons were stowed and I was already in the process of running away. It may or may not have been fixed since, but I definitely didn't see that one coming - and have no real idea how to avoid it, should it recur, short of never carrying PD modules or never going Bounty Hunting, neither of which are ideal choices for me.

I think there is enough good reason for FD to implement a more nuanced approach towards friendly-fire situations. I'm not sure insta-fine-payment is the right idea, though: for a player like myself, who's been doing this for years, it does seem far too easy - and it does seem like a very exploitable thing for those inclined to abuse either the game or other players.

Another suggestion made here is to require the player to merely stow weapons and leave the instance - re-entering if they wish to continue. It's not a bad idea, but a bit too easy and gamey for my tastes.

A slightly stronger approach might be to have the commander stow weapons to signal surrender, then issue a fine which requires them to return to a local station and pay it off, before it turns into a bounty. A countdown already exists for when the canopy blows out - I would think it shouldn't require too much dev-time to repurpose that mechanic for this purpose. It might have interesting effects on local crime-rates, if the nearest station is too many LS away - and experienced players might need to think strategically about their ship-choices, when bounty-hunting in systems where there are no large pads to land on.

Oh my.

Oh my!

That's actually an extremely clever idea! You're litterally forcing the commander to run back to a station, away from the danger and from the cops doing their job... I can't think of a better way to handle clumsy civilians.

DCs shouldn't be considered an issue more than in the case of the death counter, so there's no real technical issue with it either.

I'll add that to my own suggestion whenever I have the chance.

Brilliant! Cheers Commander!

 

[Velixar]

Well brain fart. If your system weak We can't blame the game. If the system above game spec. It best to file a bug report.

Now storing weapons and a count down start. Still seems too easy. It best if the player practice.

 

[storrez]

I agree with your statement, it's way better than mine.
With this system we wouldn't be lost in this ambiguity that exist nowadays, witch applies the same outcome to a pirate or someone who have itchy fingers, or was just trying to help and the cops got in the way of your projectiles.

 

[storrez]

As I said, getting attacked by them is not the issue.

Let's say there's a shooting between cops and whoever else, and I, being armed, attempt to help them. If I inadvertedly shoot one of the cops, they have to assume I'm a threat, that's a no-brainer. They are expected to try and take me down.

However if, upon realizing what I've done, I drop my weapon, get on the floor and no longer constitute a threat... They have strictly no reason to keep shooting. More importantly, it's their job to stop shooting so the offender can be judged. They'll arrest me later for criminal incompetence or whatnot or throw a heavy fine up my rear...

But they won't just keep shooting on people who surrender and drop their weapons.


Many players seem to either forget or refuse to see the difference between military forces in a warzone and the police as they intervene : Their primary goal is not to eradicate an enemy faction, but to deter and control crime.


That's why I provided a link to another suggestion to this effect in the beginning of the thread. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...on-about-the-Virulently-Vengeful-Space-Police

In essence, police reaction should look like this :

1 ) After one or a few shots taken by police agents in a fight, the player is given a hostility warning and the cops open fire (as it happens right now). The offender is given a 200cr bounty.

2 ) However, a clear message from the Forces of Order demands that the offender lower their weapons and leave the premises, failing which the attack will continue.

Note : If the offender already has a substantial bounty (say, over 1000 credits), this option is not given.

3 ) Every subsequent hit on a police ship will double the bounty given from that point on. Hostility continues. If the player keeps assaulting police ships and shooting back, the bounty grows beyond the surrender threshold and lowering weapons does not halt the police's attack. The bounty then stops climbing until the player does actually murder someone

4 ) If the player's bounty is low enough and they power down their weapons (essentially stowing hardpoints), the police attack stops immediately, and the bounty incurred is transformed into a proportional fine. However, the police reiterate their demand that the civilian agitator leave the premises.

5 ) If the player re-deploys their weapons (or boosts away and comes back with weapons deployed) while in the same instance while the police is within scanner range, the bounty is reinstated and the attack begins again, even if they flew really far away then came back (unless the police ships all despawned).

6 ) If the player either goes in supercruise or leaves the system after surrendering properly, the fine remains a fine and is added to the player's total fines in the system. Going back to the same spot would reset the player's hostility status.


That would be believable behavior for police and peacekeeping forces. The issue, fundamentally, with the current implementation, is that if you just stay there and power down weapons, the police will butcher you like psycho terminators. That is not credible police behavior.

I agree with your statement, it's way better than mine.
With this system we wouldn't be lost in this ambiguity that exist nowadays, witch applies the same outcome to a pirate or someone who have itchy fingers, or was just trying to help and the cops got in the way of your projectiles.

 

[Allchemyst]

I agree with your statement, it's way better than mine.
With this system we wouldn't be lost in this ambiguity that exist nowadays, witch applies the same outcome to a pirate or someone who have itchy fingers, or was just trying to help and the cops got in the way of your projectiles.

Glad to be of service : )

Althought, Doclooshkin's idea is pretty much better than mine.

Right now, the police response is but one of many barebones and "temporary" solutions to a very vast project with not-prolific-enough resources... They'll get to it, eventually.

 

[Velixar]

I wonder if people are having a type of game type of tunnel vision problem while playing the game. When they focus on one target while ignoring other targets.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

I just tried X: R VR... and there the problem is easily solved. Accidental "lighting up" a shield will not have any consequences, do it twice and you get a radio remark (last time I heard something like "you know you could at least make it look like you are sorry for that" ;-) ), pursue the assault and you get reported by NPC to police. I will try accidental shooting cops ships later to see if the behaviour is different. Problem solved.

PS: this can work because there are no magic fairy weapon effects like drilling through shields.