Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen
- Thread starter excalibus
- Start date
And we're all drunk and kill each other... No wait, that was before! Now we're just drunk!
The whole thing called Elite is broken in my opinion.
You can really feel it on your tongue while playing that this game is just another MMO that is unsuccesfull in the attempt to immerge you into the world that is a developing galaxy.
The thing that breaks the immersion is foremost the lack of manners for some/many players that just shoot you down on sight because they can and do get away with it.
I really would like to play with ALL of the other CMDR's but it feels repulsive to check the radar if there is another player around that could possibly shoot me down.
Even SOL feels like an anarchy sector and there is no jurisdiction present.
So, this is why I "hide" my sorry rear in a private group with people I know.
Why not areas that prohibit PVP (all systems that are not anarchy or peacefull) and vice versa (PVP only in anarchic Systems and Systems at War).
PLUS, making it more attractive to loot other Players from their Cargo than shoot them down entirely.
You can really feel it on your tongue while playing that this game is just another MMO that is unsuccesfull in the attempt to immerge you into the world that is a developing galaxy.
The thing that breaks the immersion is foremost the lack of manners for some/many players that just shoot you down on sight because they can and do get away with it.
I really would like to play with ALL of the other CMDR's but it feels repulsive to check the radar if there is another player around that could possibly shoot me down.
Even SOL feels like an anarchy sector and there is no jurisdiction present.
So, this is why I "hide" my sorry rear in a private group with people I know.
Why not areas that prohibit PVP (all systems that are not anarchy or peacefull) and vice versa (PVP only in anarchic Systems and Systems at War).
PLUS, making it more attractive to loot other Players from their Cargo than shoot them down entirely.
Yes, that's why I wrote about 20k friendly people. Or potential friends. For sure Mobius groups have created a nice community. And I'm absolutely supportive to private groups being there. With 2 members or 20k or 200k members if they wish to play together.
What I meant was that Private Group feature probably wasn't meant for such huge crowds of people and Frontier didn't expect them to be used as PVE servers, which they've effectively became (well, some of them). If they meant private groups to become PVE servers, they failed miserably at preparing them to play this role and I believe in Frontiers capability of not failing at such a thing.
It's not broken. It's not ready to be an MMO. It works reasonable well as single player game or multiplayer with smaller groups of people. There are some issues and some tweaking is needed, but that's to be expected from a game that's being developed in stages. Let's hope that one of the stages soon we will see it being better prepared to facilitate some sort of MMO type of gameplay. That's what the poll in this thread is about. To give people this type of option.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
The poll asks voters if they want to see an official Open-PvE mode added to the mode selection menu. It is not directly to do with facilitating MMO type gameplay (although, if introduced, would very probably facilitate co-operative play) - more simply about the introduction of a game mode where PvP is not permitted*.
*: probably - or possibly in particular areas only, e.g. Combat Zones.
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Dont forget DB himself is quoted as saying he does not feel ED is an MMO, certainly not in the traditional sense. imo the only reason they use the MMO tag is because they realise that in the modern day games like warthunder and WOT ARE marketed as mmos, therefore if they managed it then Frontier would be silly not to as well.
if you look at ED, it does tick all mmo boxes, just the BGS alone manages this, even before we get onto the meat of the game flying space ships.
its massive
its multiplayer
its online
every single person playing in the game effects the BGS therefore it IS masssively multiplayer
whether it is a GOOD MMO is another discussion however
for me I do not look at it as an mmo, I look at it as an rpg where i role play the life as a spaceman in 1000+ years time. Even then however some would argue it is not an RPG either.... which is fine, but that is what it is to me.
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There’s been some confusion as to exactly what the multiplayer in Elite: Dangerous will entail, whether it will be a full-scale MMO or more like a large-scale drop-in drop-out co-op. The game that people keep using as a point of comparison is EVE Online…
It’s not [like EVE online]. One of the things I’ve done today is to put a load more stuff on the FAQ explaining how it’s different and how, in some ways, it’s an MMO, because we expect a massive number of players to play it. But in most ways that people will judge it, Elite: Dangerous is not an MMO.
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After being interdicted by idiots who just want an easy kill. I'm all for piracy, all for jovial pvp, but when folks start taking it so seriously they'll attack easy targets, like noobs and traders JUST for killing them, rather than stealing their cargo/etc? That's when I start wanting open PvE, so I can still meet and talk with people, and be in a living 'verse, without having to worry about those who, frankly, have ruined the idea of PvP for me.
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Seems like killing is used as an argument here over and over again but now I ask. What is so tragic about paying 5m insurance for once? Or even twice. That's maybe like 1 hour of ingame playtime to get back where you were.
I feel people just want to protect their progress and this is in my eyes not a valid reason for open PvE. If players would contnously camp stations, ram-kill inside them or bully the same player repetetively or threat them in some way outside of the game - okay - but this isn't the case and therefor I still don't see the need for open PvE despite the fact that we are only playing a game by its rules.
It's the same with monopoly. Open PvE looks like monopoly without stealing someone else's houses.
I feel people just want to protect their progress and this is in my eyes not a valid reason for open PvE. If players would contnously camp stations, ram-kill inside them or bully the same player repetetively or threat them in some way outside of the game - okay - but this isn't the case and therefor I still don't see the need for open PvE despite the fact that we are only playing a game by its rules.
It's the same with monopoly. Open PvE looks like monopoly without stealing someone else's houses.
You steal other peoples' houses in Monopoly?
if you had read the thread kain, you would know that there is a lot more to it that 'just paying the insurance' or wanting to 'protect progress'... PVE players pay the insurance when they die to NPC's and they do it gladly... there are some people, who, for very valid and understandable reasons, cannot do PVP at all, and some for whom, PVP causes serious psychological issues that affect them in the real world...
Should those players be relegated to a solo only mode because you want PVP? Should those players be continually told 'go to mobius' when private groups cannot negate the possibility of any PVP?
What if it was your son, daugher, sister or brother, father or mother that had these issues but really wanted to play ED in a multiplayer environment where they could enjoy meeting other commanders and be enriched by those social encounters without worrying about PVP?
Tell me, are you personally so caught up with your 'desire' for PVP that you cannot take a step back and think about these sorts of players and the benefits an OPEN PVE mode would have for them?
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5 million for me is at least 5 hours of play, perhaps more. Not 1 or 2 hours.
The problem is, is that möbius already allows some PVP. So you are shunning some of your own group into open or another group to continue. but that's okay because PVP is bad so what are a few casualties along the way.
Ahab has gotta hunt that whale.
The short term fix is for frontier to entertain the idea of, then enable a PVE flag for groups. matchmaking would recognise this flag as it shuffles commanders into instances and whilst bullets might go flying, they won't apply damage if the sender of damage and receiver are both commanders.
Immersion is busted to all hell, but it solves the initial concern in the short term. More importantly it isn't some bizzare "weapons malfunction" mechanic that would otherwise make (sorry I'll be polite: edited) fighting all those NPCs virtually impossible.
What you are asking for, is almost otherwise a very big overhaul of the matchmaking system to handle open, with the same friendly fire disabled flag in effect.
I can't imagine that's a five minute job. It also needs some sane thought around how you even do that without magic hull that ignores player bullets. Otherwise it becomes comedic TF2 in space.
To state it's okay to die to an NPC, but not a commander, is a bit weird. NPC's actually harass in super cruise, they actual hurl (corney) abuse and will chase you. They will prey on unsuspecting people. All of this is no different to the occasional commander.
It's important to remember that AI might be a bit now, but that distinction between player and AI will blur over time? A human will always have the edge to some degree, but it is possible to make combat with a computer controlled asset exceedingly difficult.
We've had it good. I doubt it will last. You may find some commanders are actually less risky that some AI down the track. I do wonder if the position on PVE will change if there is far far more risk of the environment kicking back.
I also wonder - if you did not know who was a commander, or AI, and they did not know either, whether the same arguments would be raised. I am unsure if it would be quite so black and white.
Because the truth of it is, crime and punishment has never been truely black or white. Yes, I am sure there have been TOS breaches in the past and they are almost certain to occur in future. However just because a commander opens fire on another commander, doesn't mean this is automatically "wrong".
Rules may exist in a group and that's perfectly fine. Frontier well understand at this point they really need to get better management of groups sorted. Because if the group created the rule(s) they should be adiquately enabled to police those rules.
But I do believe there is a lot of broad brush strokes being made, to support arguments. And this is over simplifying the situation to such a degree, that's it's pretty much just now an argument on the Internet, rather than reasoned debate.
Edit. One final note? It's been interesting to see how AI is effectively considered such as cattle or sheep, in elite. When did the wholesale slaughter of NPCs suddenly become so generic and normal, and yet a commander being shot is an incredible crime. That's actually a double standard.
When does an AI life become important, and when is it that it's time to die has come, at player hands. I find this sort of question quite interesting, really. And yet I imagine a lot of PVE enthusiasts don't even consider it. Take a commander life; into the gulag with you. An AI life? Who cares.
Strange, don't you think?
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You're doing it wrong.
Nope. There is no 'right way' to play Elite, and anyone who thinks there is clearly doesn't understand the game.
How? You mean i don't grind? Damn straight! I do what I enjoy, regardless of whatever it earns me. I certainly have no intention of making credits the focus of my gameplay. That way lies boredom. I do what I enjoy.
Is this a case of not only should players accept random kills and losses, but they must also grind when they are not being killed to recover from their losses? Erm, no thanks. I bought ED, not EvE.
You make some valid observations, but I think many of them can also be viewed from a different perspective...
If a PvE mode has all player on player fire 'disabled' in some way, then players who want some potential for PvP (for example in a combat zone) can simply swap to Open when they wish to engage in that. It's certainly not forcing them out of a group, and Mobius has no prerequisites that players stick to his group any more than there is a requirement to stick to one of the existing modes at present (something that some players admittedly feel is a bad thing).
Personally, I imagine that a PvP / PvE flag in Open would upset even more players, as being able to actually see an invincible (un-attackable) CMDR must surely be worse than simply assuming / imagining that there are hordes of players working against you in a different mode. That's just a supposition on my part, but still...
Regarding AI vs player, there's lots of reasons why players don't object to being harassed by NPCs (and of course, some do object very vocally!). Whatever those reasons are, they clearly exist for some people, and I'm pretty sure it's not all about being destroyed. You are right that the NPC comms are rather corny, but I imagine quite a bit of effort went into making them 'politically correct' and non offensive to the majority. The same I would imagine cannot always be said for player communications...
I honestly doubt that FD will ever make the NPCs so much of a challenge that they become something players generally would rather not encounter. They certainly might up the capabilities of some of the higher ranking ones, especially those in powerful ships, and then players can make a choice whether to engage or not, and that would be fine, but since NPCs are a part of everyone's content, they will ultimately have to be positioned in such a way that they don't exclude all but the 'best' pilots from enjoying the game.
Regarding NPCs as cattle or sheep, well, as I said above, they are a part of the content that FD provide for us in the game. Personally I would welcome better security / crime / punishment in the game, and would like to see it applied to everything, but you point out a potential issue with that. Missions happily send you out to kill innocents, and perhaps this is FD's way of creating a 'dangerous and cutthroat galaxy'. But in the end, NPCs don't care if you destroy them en masse, they are 'happy' to be our content. The same cannot necessarily be said for players being happy to be another player's content.
Well yes, if by that you mean the argument from a section of PvPers who can't get their head round the simple idea that not everyone who wishes to play alongside others considers player-to-player combat necessary. As far as I can see, nobody else is saying anything about there being a single right way of doing anything. It's about giving paying customers clear options, and allowing them to chose for themselves.