Simple but radical redesign of exploration

[_trent_]

I've been thinking about the "Road to Riches" issue, and I think exploration needs a totally different approach. This is what I suggest. Firstly:

- Zero rewards for scanning already scanned objects. They're revealed to your nav computer, but that's it.

Instead the following exploration rewards:

1) First discovered bonus.
2) A new "first to land an SRV on a planet" bonus.
3) Also, first to collect a particular material on that planet.

This will actually mean that exploration involves, well, exploration, as in going somewhere no-one has gone before. The third reward encourages people to get in their SRV and roam around the planet, without having some arbitrary "time on planet" counter. The rewards for collecting materials on a particular planet should be based on their galaxy wide rarity, so whilst you'll get small rewards from picking up common mats on planets that people previously haven't, the big money will come from going to planets which commonly spawn rare materials.

The numbers should be set so that exploration out in the void should be similarly rewarding (or maybe slightly moreso) than it is now, based on the amount of time taken. Yes, this approach will mean that as the galaxy is explored exploration will become more difficult (as there's less new things to explore) but the galaxy is so big it's unlikely to become a serious problem anytime soon. And if needed, if exploration becomes harder as more of the galaxy is explored simply increasing the rewards should balance that.

As the only rewards from exploration are "firsts", then you'll have to actually blaze your own trail. There's no way to have a "Road to Riches" as once on person does it it's not worth anything anymore. But I think that's a good thing. There's lots of space to blaze your own trail in the galaxy.

What do other players (and FDev for that matter) think about this approach?

I'm afraid I am not convinced.

The road to riches is nothing to do with exploration. It's a way for some players to gain a lot of credits and rank very quickly. That's how they want to play the game, but rank and credits are pretty meaningless for almost everyone I know who actually enjoys exploring the huge galaxy that FD have given us to travel in.

 

[Omgzzwtf]

I explore a lot, I feel like I've spent more time in the black than I have in the bubble, I'm at 64% Pioneer and I've never done any sort of star farming.

With that said, I don't agree with the OP's post.

Scan data as it is now works, it's nice, and it gives everyone the same opportunity to make Cr's for their work. Removing value from a scanned world would be like removing respawning ships from RES sites. Would it be more realistic? One can make an argument that it is, but should we do it? Absolutely not, the idea is ridiculous.

I will agree with some of others here that rank shouldn't be tied directly to data value, it should be tied to the number of objects scanned, objects that are more rare will contribute more to your rank upon turn-in of data. You should also get less rank, maybe 2:1 or even 3:1 for objects that were previously scanned. That might encourage people to venture out into the black for themselves, which is extremely lucrative now, especially if you take a few passengers with you! 45m to go to Colonia? Hell ya!

I flew to Colonia with three passengers, made 110m in scan data, I fully expect to make roughly that same amount on the way back, plus I'll make about an extra 135m in passenger mission rewards.

 

[lenna]

The problem isn't the financial reward as such, but it's the association with the exploration rank. If you already know about it, you're not exploring, your a tourist. Perhaps they could add a rank for Tourism?

There are no rewards for things we personally "know about" AFAIK, the only rewards are for those we discover ourselves via the honk at the bare minimum. Even just the honk is a form of exploration even if it does not fit with your definition.

There is perhaps a case for reducing rewards when turned into minor factions that already have knowledge of an area but it is a very weak case IMO.

I can not see a good reason to adjust the current method of rank progression except to penalise newer players.

 

[eqinox]

Nerfing rewards for anything? Unless it's removing stupid exploits, no thanks. Nerfing rewards for those new to the game sounds worse. Maybe exploration rank is too easy to gain now, but resetting it for anyone sounds like a drastic measure, and unfair to those who worked hard for it.

Add rewards for landing/first landing credit/exploration bonuses for scanning POIs and actually surveying planets with an SRV? Yes, this would be a good idea. Just remove the random aimless driving around in an SRV scanning for mats while you're at it, with some mechanic on actually knowing where to land first. And please, if there's a POI, do not lose the blue circle when getting closer, it's silly.

In retrospect, it would've been great if exploration was more than honking with ADS to know every single planet in the system. And if we actually had to discover hyperspace routes instead of opening the whole galaxy for everyone to route through. It might've been cool to map the galaxy by visiting it; the bubble could've been open at first, and every region would open while you visited it (with 500ly radius or whatever). It would be a goal in itself to open up the whole galaxy in galmap, especially if there was a visual cue / color etc showing where you've been.

 

[Omgzzwtf]

I haven't seen any, how do you find them?

in Orbital cruise and when flying above a planet's surface, a blue circle will appear under your ship on the radar, that is a POI.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Nah, don't like it OP. It kind of punishes those who come later. The first discovered bonus should be enough.

When we started playing back at the beginning, most worlds were undiscovered, and we could cut our exploration teeth and make some money early on doing local exploration. Your suggestion would force new explorers to travel at least 1000LY out before even standing a chance of finding an unexplored system, 2000+ realistically.

I see no reason why FD would want to do this to new players.

While the recent changes have badly devalued the elite exploration rank, its no killer. The elite trade rank was made meaningless a long time ago. Only the combat rank still requires a lot of combat to achieve, and even that doesn't prove someone is good at combat, all it provies is that someone has killed lots of ship. In the case of the elite ranks, quantity is no measure of quality.

I suggest you don't worry about it. Let the newcomers have their fun. I'm basically satisfied that my exploration rank was earned the hard way, and took me a year to get, and others doing it by following the road to riches in a couple of weeks simply means their achievement took less effort than mine. In other words, its what i did that counts, not the in-game award.

Those who took the quick route have not been to Sag A*, they have not been to Beagle Point, they have not visited > 10,000 systems.

Or as the old saying goes, its the journey that counts, not the destination.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Quite like the idea of the interdiction style mini game for travel out in the black too, but not TOO hard

Is hyperspace different 'out in the black'?
A jump is a jump, so if you want a minigame then it should apply EVERYWHERE, including the Bubble.

Which is why it's a ridiculous idea

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Nah, don't like it OP. It kind of punishes those who come later. The first discovered bonus should be enough.

When we started playing back at the beginning, most worlds were undiscovered, and we could cut our exploration teeth and make some money early on doing local exploration. Your suggestion would force new explorers to travel at least 1000LY out before even standing a chance of finding an unexplored system, 2000+ realistically.

I see no reason why FD would want to do this to new players.

While the recent changes have badly devalued the elite exploration rank, its no killer. The elite trade rank was made meaningless a long time ago. Only the combat rank still requires a lot of combat to achieve, and even that doesn't prove someone is good at combat, all it provies is that someone has killed lots of ship. In the case of the elite ranks, quantity is no measure of quality.

I suggest you don't worry about it. Let the newcomers have their fun. I'm basically satisfied that my exploration rank was earned the hard way, and took me a year to get, and others doing it by following the road to riches in a couple of weeks simply means their achievement took less effort than mine. In other words, its what i did that counts, not the in-game award.

Those who took the quick route have not been to Sag A*, they have not been to Beagle Point, they have not visited > 10,000 systems.

Or as the old saying goes, its the journey that counts, not the destination.

Can't give you any more +rep at the moment - my sentiments exactly!

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Is hyperspace different 'out in the black'?
A jump is a jump, so if you want a minigame then it should apply EVERYWHERE, including the Bubble.

Which is why it's a ridiculous idea

It is a ridiculous idea - you'd be destroying the Buckyball races - imagine having to 'wrestle with hyperspace' every time you jumped. Awful.

'Wrestle with hyperspace' during a Thargoid hyperdiction, on the other hand, seems like a nice idea.

 

[c00ky1970]

Still think it would be useful to break planetary surfaces into squares by longitude and latitude. When you detail surface scan, only the ones you're facing are scanned. Only sectors that have been scanned (by anyone) are available to look at on the system map. The rest appear "blank".

Each square has a first scanned by, and an appropriate bonus for doing so.

So you could arrive in a system and find a number of planets have been discovered, and only partially surface scanned, thus meaning you can scan the rest of the surfaces for a bonus.


This then means:-
1) If/when exploration probes are introduced, using them to fully scan planets from orbit becomes useful.
2) If a procedural distribution mechanic can be introduced so materials vary over planet surfaces, then this ties in well. ie: There could be an area of higher amounts of material X (skewing the dice rolls in favour of finding it), but if the sector it exists in has not be scanned, no one will know until it is!

My worry with your suggestion is that it actually adds nothing to gameplay apart from sit looking a ta planet for 30 seconds, move nose of ship a few degrees and wait again, not exactly riveting experience.

If fdev could add a number of modules that could go alongside detailed surface scanner, geology scanner, exobiology scanner that when you complete your 30 second stare at an object it "enables" those POI blue circles to show where brain plants, space cabbages or graviational anomolies to be. Actually accessing one or more of those sites provides an exploration rank uptick as well as cash bonus.

Ideally exploration rank uptick should be for encountering something new (first discovered, first landed, first sampled, first selfied etc etc.) and not just bouncing round known ELW and cashing in the bunce.

The balance si that the road to Elite Exploration shouldn't be too arduous or grindy and it shuld reward those seeking out new life, new civilisations and bodly going where no man has gone before...

This also couples with the challenge over beigeification of planets, I think Fdev should have a look at the recent pictures of Pluto's fly by and also dip into a more fictional universe, lets have greens, purples, blues and other fantastical colours.

I would also like a bit more randomness in the surface layout of planets, many a time I have seen the Merope 5C 'skin' on airless worlds out in the black, cant they program in a bit more variance in surfaces, would make\explorers want to slow down and look around rather than do the monetary calculation of HMC vs Rocky.

It would also be useful if there was some variance in Cartography bonus, maybe some systeks will pay millions for ELWs from many kylies away, but others are more interested in ELW within 2kly. Certain institutions may want more data on rocky worlds rather than HMC, so the payout may reverse? Again if payment was divorced from rank then people can get the money but not cheese the system to fast track to Elite.

Or maybe Ranks in exploration also have gated entry, mid rank Trailblazer must get to California nebula to progress beyond, Pioneer to Sag A* and Elite has to have been to Beagle point? (these may be too harsh, maybe total distance travelled and max distance from start instead?) but its a way to identify those that have really been out into the black rather than bounced around the bubble a few thousand times.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Or maybe Ranks in exploration also have gated entry, mid rank Trailblazer must get to California nebula to progress beyond, Pioneer to Sag A* and Elite has to have been to Beagle point? (these may be too harsh, maybe total distance travelled and max distance from start instead?) but its a way to identify those that have really been out into the black rather than bounced around the bubble a few thousand times.

Blaze your own trail, unless it's a trail I don't approve of, in which case don't

 

[c00ky1970]

Its a bit of a challenge to come up with a "better" way to track exploration rank.

As was said above getting to Elite combat gets harder as your climb the ranks, as kills of your rank or higher appear to only contribute to your progression.

If you wanted a similar method in Exploration then some sort of gating may have to be implemented, ie. at low ranks any exploration data counts, but higher and higher only a subset actually increases rank, maybe pioneer rank progression only records first discoveries...

But, taking a step back, who actually cares? I don't see the exploration or trade ranks of the players I encounter in game (only Combat), would I defer to those with Elite exploration (or expect people to defer to me with my Elite exploration rank) on subjects? No, and why would anyone else.

So an Elite rank gives you access to Shinrata Dehzra and 10% deduction to ships, but a quick trip to Rui controlled systems gives players 15% discount.

Unless new function and game play comes to exploration then I woyld say sticj with what it is, as it really makes no difference to the game at the moment.

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

in Orbital cruise and when flying above a planet's surface, a blue circle will appear under your ship on the radar, that is a POI.

Thanks, but only ever seen those in the bubble.

 

[Leo Sagan]

+ rep to the OP for the thread (I love explo threads).

I don't think FD needs more exploration ideas though : the DDF + the *many* explo threads opened after that gave them so many GREAT ideas compared to what we have now ... Obviously they read at least *some* of them. Probably not every single one : hell, even *I* did not.

Still : they do know what we need.

Maybe they have other priorities ? I'd rather have them working on exploration TBH (hence my support by posting here and encouraging clinton, to help as much as I can to make this post count).

As for the details of a (possible) future exploration, I don't care at this point any more :-(

Any improvement over the "honk / scoop / jump" routine would do at this point.

FD, exploration revamp please !!!

 

[Mengy]

I posted this in the infinite honk thread going on right now, but it could also really apply to this thread too. My idea for how to revamp the exploration gameplay loop, especially with regards to scanning mechanics, is to break it down into stages of discovery, like this:

• First Stage - The ADS (honk). This reveals gravitational data on objects, giving you an Orrery map with "black" stellar bodies, their orbital paths, and their gravity data. With that Orrery map you can see if the system looks interesting or not, how many bodies it has, etc.
• Second Stage - Visual Scan. Next would be the long distance visual scan, where you point the ship (from very far away, don't need to fly up close) at the the stellar bodies and quickly scan them, revealing their graphics on the Orrery map so you can see what they look like, surface map included. This would also unlock what type of stellar body it is, for example star type or planet type, but no detail data on the objects yet.
• Third Stage - Detail Scan. Here is where you can fly to within a certain distance of a stellar body (much longer range than currently in game!) and perform a scan to get all of the body data, like age, orbital info, materials, etc. This also provides you with the Surface Heat Map, which highlights large potential search areas on the planet surface where things can be found, like geysers/fumeroles, unknown structures, life forms, high material concnetrations, etc.
• Fourth Stage - Surface Exploration. The heat map now in hand, the commander can choose to fly down into search zones to look for POI's. Upon entering the zone a search indicator pops up (like surface salvage missions currently use only more intensive) to guide the player incrementally, gradually narrowing down the search area to a more localized zone where the commander would need to land and use the SRV scanners to finally pinpoint the POI.

Each stage reveals info about the system a bit at a time but allows the commander to make informed decisions along the way. Exploration needs more decision making and actions, and staging the exploration process like this would provide that in a meaningful way while also instilling a sense of gradual discovery via actions and decisions. This also would provide a great foundation of tools to allow additional content to be seamlessly added down the road, enabling players to actually find procedurally placed things out in space using more than just their eyes.



Now, with regards to this thread about exploration payouts, this staged design of exploration could easily be utilized to also stage the payouts for exploration. For example, an ADS honk (stage 1) would get you some credits but not a lot. The visual scans for each stellar body (stage 2) would add value with each one being worth quite a bit. Detail scans (stage 3) would be very valuable, this is where the huge credits could be made, especially for ELWs, AWs, and terraforms. And finally, scanning POI's on the surface (stage 4) like geysers, fumeroles, life forms, geologic formations, taking core samples, etc, all of these would reward with very large payouts, so taking the time to do the scans, get out the SRV, and explore the system would be very worth it and rewarding.

This way, simply jonking would never pay all that much, but actually exploring and discovering would.

 

[Enderby]

There's nothing much to discover with srvs. Apart from the verrry odd rock with 4 or 5 lumps of material.

Exploration is very boring already. Wouldn't want one of the very few things I can 'discover' to be taken away, if I was not the first person to scan a planet.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I posted this in the infinite honk thread going on right now, but it could also really apply to this thread too. My idea for how to revamp the exploration gameplay loop, especially with regards to scanning mechanics, is to break it down into stages of discovery, like this:

• First Stage - The ADS (honk). This reveals gravitational data on objects, giving you an Orrery map with "black" stellar bodies, their orbital paths, and their gravity data. With that Orrery map you can see if the system looks interesting or not, how many bodies it has, etc.
• Second Stage - Visual Scan. Next would be the long distance visual scan, where you point the ship (from very far away, don't need to fly up close) at the the stellar bodies and quickly scan them, revealing their graphics on the Orrery map so you can see what they look like, surface map included. This would also unlock what type of stellar body it is, for example star type or planet type, but no detail data on the objects yet.
• Third Stage - Detail Scan. Here is where you can fly to within a certain distance of a stellar body (much longer range than currently in game!) and perform a scan to get all of the body data, like age, orbital info, materials, etc. This also provides you with the Surface Heat Map, which highlights large potential search areas on the planet surface where things can be found, like geysers/fumeroles, unknown structures, life forms, high material concnetrations, etc.
• Fourth Stage - Surface Exploration. The heat map now in hand, the commander can choose to fly down into search zones to look for POI's. Upon entering the zone a search indicator pops up (like surface salvage missions currently use only more intensive) to guide the player incrementally, gradually narrowing down the search area to a more localized zone where the commander would need to land and use the SRV scanners to finally pinpoint the POI.

Each stage reveals info about the system a bit at a time but allows the commander to make informed decisions along the way. Exploration needs more decision making and actions, and staging the exploration process like this would provide that in a meaningful way while also instilling a sense of gradual discovery via actions and decisions. This also would provide a great foundation of tools to allow additional content to be seamlessly added down the road, enabling players to actually find procedurally placed things out in space using more than just their eyes.



Now, with regards to this thread about exploration payouts, this staged design of exploration could easily be utilized to also stage the payouts for exploration. For example, an ADS honk (stage 1) would get you some credits but not a lot. The visual scans for each stellar body (stage 2) would add value with each one being worth quite a bit. Detail scans (stage 3) would be very valuable, this is where the huge credits could be made, especially for ELWs, AWs, and terraforms. And finally, scanning POI's on the surface (stage 4) like geysers, fumeroles, life forms, geologic formations, taking core samples, etc, all of these would reward with very large payouts, so taking the time to do the scans, get out the SRV, and explore the system would be very worth it and rewarding.

This way, simply jonking would never pay all that much, but actually exploring and discovering would.

I disagree with your idea here Mengy, and rlsg eloquently explains why...

Maybe, maybe not... it is probably pretty realistic though. Consider the power of current telescopes to provide basic information on bodies with-in our own solar system...

The current body images we get from such scans are far from fool proof in determining the precise nature of the body detected and I see no good reason to segregate the current approach into multiple stages like you seem to want. It would not add anything and only serve to make the process seem even more grindy (what some seem to complain about wrt exploration in it's current form). Personally, I do not find the process grindy at all and doing what you suggest is unlikely to stop cherry picking like seems to happen in some systems.

The current infinite range is not a true infinite range otherwise we would be able to "honk" the whole galaxy without having to leave the confines of the starting system (an equally ridiculous proposition IMO).

Adding detail to the current Detailed Scan and Surface Exploration factors is a fine proposition though.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

@Mengy
I don't see what gameplay (or other) benefit your second stage brings.
It just seems to involve rotating the ship around a few times to point at system bodies, for no real reason.

 

[lenna]

Its a bit of a challenge to come up with a "better" way to track exploration rank.

Too late now, the current system has been in place for too long to change it now without causing a major uproar.

The only people that seem to be championing the changes are those who already have Elite rank in exploration. I can understand why they might object to any increases in rank progression as a result of some of the new passenger missions but I feel they need to get over themselves.

It has long been a complaint in these forums that exploration was not rewarding enough, now some appear to be complaining it is too rewarding in terms of progression.

@Mengy
I don't see what gameplay (or other) benefit your second stage brings.
It just seems to involve rotating the ship around a few times to point at system bodies, for no real reason.

And notionally just penalises newer players.

 

[Mengy]

@Mengy
I don't see what gameplay (or other) benefit your second stage brings.
It just seems to involve rotating the ship around a few times to point at system bodies, for no real reason.

Yeah I admit, my Stage 2 seems weak. I still feel like there should be more actual discovery during exploration though, and making the honk only show black bodies followed by some other mechanic to show the graphics does that; but I agree that simply poining the ship at each object in turn isn't very engaging. I like the idea of a visual scan with optics to show the graphical displays though.

Maybe instead of pointing the ship, you could point the DSS instead? Turn the DSS into a utility slot, one that swivels so you can aim it while the ship remains stationary (or flies around in other directions). Basically a vision turret, a telescope on a full motion mount. Then the commander can activate the DSS turret after the honk and point it (target) at every body, nearly instantly providing the graphical dispaly and surface map of the planet/star. Now to do my Stage 3 (the typical current detail scan) you could still use the mobile DSS to do so, but you would need to be "close" to the body to do a detail scan (still much farther away than in game currently).

This new turret utility DSS provides two really nice improvements to exploration:

1. You no longer would need to fly a ship right up to a planet to detail scan it, simply fly in it's vicinity and point the DSS turret in the direction you need it to go

2. This gives multicrew an exploration function: manning the DSS turret while exploring!