Ships Small ships' niche in the metagame

I'll throw some of my own thoughts into the ring, not that I haven't expressed any of these more than once already in other places. :)

- Price should never be the defining balancing factor. Having more credits than someone else shouldn't almost buy you an auto-win.

- The same goes for rebuy cost. It doesn't help you that for one death in a Vulture, you can afford to die many times in a Viper. Each death also destroys all your you combat bonds, bounty claims etc., so you cannot strategize around dying more often than someone with a bigger, more expensive ship.

- Speed and agility should roughly be higher the smaller a ship is. Yes, what I am saying is the smaller ships should be made faster. The Viper should reach a Cobra's boost speed (regular speed unchanged), the Eagle should have similar speed (at least what the Viper has now, with acceleration and deceleration increased accordingly so that it takes no longer than now to reach top speed or slow down again). The Sidewinder, Hauler and Adder all need to be faster, and probably deserve a boost to their jump ranges or the way mass (i.e. cargo) affects their jump range. Yes, an empty Hauler can jump 27Ly, but with cargo it just smaller distances than a Cobra with cargo, weapons and other equipment. And since the Adder is to have some sort of exploration focus, it may need a small boost to its jump range, too.

- One aspect about speed that is mentioned too rarely, imho, is not just the idea of escape or pursuit (both important things already), but that there exists a natural tactic against ships that are smaller and more fragile than you: backwards flying. Try it, take a Python, engage an Eagle, use backwards throttle, and just keep the Eagle in sight. It has no chance other than running away as soon as you implement this tactic (in which case it is hardly any faster than the mediocre speed of the Python). If it uses boost to get behind you, by the time it has slowed down again and turns around from its boosting, you have turned around, too, and are facing it again already. With sufficient non-boost speed, a small ship could overcome any backwards movement of a bigger ship in order to get out of the firing arcs of their fixed or gimballed weapons, and attack from the flank or behind.

- Outliers to the above rule (speed and agility being the exclusive domain of small ships) are fine, but need to be balanced by sufficient downsides. For example the Clipper, very fast and agile for its huge size, is a very fragile big target (both hull and shields), and has so weak vertical+lateral thrusters that it suffers from massive drift; by the time you have completed a regular 180° turn with FAON at 50% throttle, you see yourself going backwards and still decelerating. This is an example of how it is done right.

- Why is it that the Vulture, as a dedicated heavy fighter and big ship killer, also is the superior dogfighter against smaller ships, even smaller dedicated fighters? It makes no sense apart from some misplaced level-based linear progression thinking. And unlike the Clipper, all of its downsides - jump range, power starvation - are shared in equal or bigger proportion by the smaller ships.

- That some small ship may be deadly in a wing of four, is a strawman. A wing of four Vultures is still exponentially more deadly than a wing of four Eagles. The argument would only work if wings were not capped by ship count, but total ship value, so that for every Vulture one may have in their wing, you could also have multiple Eagles together taking up only a single slot. This however is impossible for a variety of gameplay and technical reasons, so the entire argument is moot. A ship must be valuable on its own.

- And example for perfect balance within the game is the Cobra vs Asp. The former is faster, and more agile, the latter is more heavily armed and protected, carries more cargo and has a bigger jump range. Each of the two ships has areas where it excels the other, while being not so extremely niche that having one of each ever appears mandatory.

- An idea for a game mechanic that might help give smaller an edge in a special way: limited reverse boost. An exclusive ability of only the retro-thrusters of smaller ships, a reverse-oriented boost function that also uses ENG power to rapidly slow down the ship to its current throttle setting. E.g. when flying an Eagle, you could boost past a ship to get behind it, then reverse-boost to quickly get back to the 50% throttle setting you still hold, turn around and immediately attack again where a bigger ship would still need time to bleed off speed before its velocity gets into decent maneuvering territory.

- Another idea - widen the blue zone of smaller ships, and have it stretch all the way out to their top speeds, so that they can maintain decent turn rates over a larger range of velocities than a bigger ship.

- Scanner visibility scaling with ship size in addition to heat is a nice idea, and definitely should happen both in normal space and supercruise.

- Weapon damage penalties versus bigger ship classes (small weapons: 66% vs large hulls, 33% vs medium hulls; medium weapons: 33% vs large hulls) are probably a mistake. They over-penalize the already significantly weaker weapons. In any case the current penalties are too big. Let's start with reducing them, for example to 20% and 40% respectively, and see how much that helps.

- If weapon damage penalties are there to stay, then we could have a form of an inverse, too. Why not arbitrate weapons by precision vs output? What I mean is, that small turrets and gimballed weapons should have a faster tracking speed than right now, medium should stay as is, large and especially huge weapons should have reduced tracking speed, so that, averaged out over time, a class 3 gimballed laser is no more effective attacking a Sidewinder, than a class 1 gimballed laser - the former hits harder when it its, the latter hits weaker but much more often. (This could also greatly incentivise using a small ship in your wing, to fend off other small and medium ships, as they could be more effective at that task than a bunch of large gimballed lasers mounted onto an Anaconda.) Fixed weapons could have better convergence the smaller the weapon class, with medium again staying roughly as is, large ones having significantly less, and huge weapons almost none at all.

I agree with this entire post.
 
I'll throw some of my own thoughts into the ring, not that I haven't expressed any of these more than once already in other places. :)

<lots of really good points and ideas, see above :)>

I totally agree with Methane. The smaller ships should, usually, have significant advantages in speed and manoeuvrability over the larger ones. I also really like the suggestion of tracking/accuracy penalties for the larger hardpoints against smaller vessels.
 
I am sorry but that is not a logical argument for ship progression: a narrow and ultimately dead-end MMO mechanic. Besides even if you wanted to have a shallow game that revolved around crushing grinds and game-breaking rewards, a fully upgraded "super" Eagle could easily cost as much or more than a Python. As for realism, lets not forget that Luke took down the DeathStar in a humble X-Wing.

Yea. I very much agree. It would be great to be able to tune ships out of the specifications.

- They offer the performance of much higher cathegories, albeit also at the mass and power consumption of those. So the Eagle for example could have a "superpowered" power plant. It would fit in the Class 2 slot, but would give the power of a Class 4 A power plant, while also having the mass of a class 4 power plant.
- They would be much more expencive than the "regular" version. So in the example, the power plant would not cost the 1.6 mil of a normal 4A power plant but rather 5 mil of a 5A power plant.
- To be allowed to buy them, you might have to gain enough influence with a faction or they could only be available in PowerPlay.

As a result, you then could see an Eagle flying around, with its performance being adequate to a Vulture. Of course, the pricetag on it would actually be tripple the Vulture, but it would be possible and you can bet that some Eagle-lovers would be in for it. (The same could probably happen for any other small ship out there. )
 
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we had already a lot of small ships, but now with 2 more (courier and diamondback) we have far to much of them and not enough medium ship
 
Yea. I very much agree. It would be great to be able to tune ships out of the specifications.

- They offer the performance of much higher cathegories, albeit also at the mass and power consumption of those. So the Eagle for example could have a "superpowered" power plant. It would fit in the Class 2 slot, but would give the power of a Class 4 A power plant, while also having the mass of a class 4 power plant.
- They would be much more expencive than the "regular" version. So in the example, the power plant would not cost the 1.6 mil of a normal 4A power plant but rather 5 mil of a 5A power plant.
- To be allowed to buy them, you might have to gain enough influence with a faction or they could only be available in PowerPlay.

As a result, you then could see an Eagle flying around, with its performance being adequate to a Vulture. Of course, the pricetag on it would actually be tripple the Vulture, but it would be possible and you can bet that some Eagle-lovers would be in for it. (The same could probably happen for any other small ship out there. )
I would love to see small ships have a use even in the "end-game". However an issue I can see with making ships upgradable to the power of larger ships is that it becomes difficult in PvP to know, simply by looking at the ship type, what you are going to be up against. I guess this is already a bit of an issue with E-grade vs. A-grade equipped ships but expanding this further would make it even harder to estimate what you can take on.

I feel like we don't necessarily want an Eagle going head on against a Conda and winning. Just that in a fight between big ships the smaller ships should have some use and/or some use outside of combat that larger ships cannot fulfill.
 
If the designers would simply correct how mass is handled in this game, it would go a long way in allowing niches to be formed for the smaller ships. Then the rest could easily be handled by designer missions. To give examples;

A) Any craft with a mass of less than 100T should be able to escape the mass lock effect of larger vessels. The idea is that the ships power (say more than 2:1 thrusters) should be able to overcome the pull of its small mass, thus negate the effect.

B) Ships with a small mass should be much harder to detect, thus you must be closer in order to detect them. An example would be ships will only detect an Eagle at 2KM, but if its hard-points are deployed, you can see it at 3KM.

C) The more mass a ship has, the less maneuverability it has. It's absolutely insane that the Python can turn as well as most fighters.

D) Mass should directly correlate to fuel usage. A Sidey, Hauler or Adder (even an Eagle, although it should be more armored than the others) should have much longer legs, as they should expend far less fuel for each jump. My Harley (using six gallons of fuel) can go as far as my pickup (using 25 gallons).

In my humble opinion, simply correcting how mass is handled in game should allow the niche roles we're discussing. By adding unique missions, this correction could create several professions that are sorely missing in this game, smugglers, spies and scouts.
 
I would love to see small ships have a use even in the "end-game". However an issue I can see with making ships upgradable to the power of larger ships is that it becomes difficult in PvP to know, simply by looking at the ship type, what you are going to be up against. I guess this is already a bit of an issue with E-grade vs. A-grade equipped ships but expanding this further would make it even harder to estimate what you can take on.

I feel like we don't necessarily want an Eagle going head on against a Conda and winning. Just that in a fight between big ships the smaller ships should have some use and/or some use outside of combat that larger ships cannot fulfill.

- I would wait and see how such a situation turns out. It may very well make the game more interesting to not exactly know what you are facing and whether you should take on the other ship or not. And if it's rather detrimental, it could simply be displayed as part of the ship type, like "Adder (modified)", something that indicates this is not your regular ship, but something a lot of money has been poured into making it rather formidable.

- I don't think anyone asks for an Eagle to become a competent Anaconda-killer, but for each of the ships to be competent and viable in their typical role. The Eagle is a light, agile dogfighter, obviously meant to combat other fighters. I wouldn't expect it to become very effective on its own against ships bigger than, say, an Asp (an Asp usually could just jump away before an Eagle can do serious damage anyway), but at the moment, the Eagle is completely sub-par even within its own domain, and the Viper is decent as long as it doesn't ever have to face a Vulture or FDL.

C) The more mass a ship has, the less maneuverability it has. It's absolutely insane that the Python can turn as well as most fighters.

This is no longer true ever since the Great Python Nerf. I am regular switching between my Python, Viper and Cobra, and the difference in agility between the Python and the other two ships is very big. In fact the Python is a good example of a well-balanced ship*, because for all the firepower and toughness it has, it can hardly chase down any other ship, cannot escape most fighters (except the Eagle; which imo needs a speed buff anyway) only by using its FSD, and the ships it can realistically outturn are things like a Dropship or an Anaconda (barely... seriously why are Anacondas so agile despite having twice the size and mass).

*Regarding internal space, which is sometimes said to be unrealistic or unbalanced, I don't think the Python has too many/big internal compartments, but I think a ship like the T7 has too little, considering its bulky, boxy shape.
 
I would love to see small ships have a use even in the "end-game". However an issue I can see with making ships upgradable to the power of larger ships is that it becomes difficult in PvP to know, simply by looking at the ship type, what you are going to be up against. I guess this is already a bit of an issue with E-grade vs. A-grade equipped ships but expanding this further would make it even harder to estimate what you can take on.

I feel like we don't necessarily want an Eagle going head on against a Conda and winning. Just that in a fight between big ships the smaller ships should have some use and/or some use outside of combat that larger ships cannot fulfill.

Something I remember them talking about during the pre-Alpha stages was different items, such as thrusters, having a different appearance on your ship. There was even concept art of the idea showing different thruster designs on the same ship.
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Engines.jpg
 
Or just make premium small ships with better stats and buffed up versions of the existing ones with prices in the 50-100M ranges. You know, like space Ferraris.

That way people can still fly small ships while being competitive and have something to spend their cash on, without having to go to the classic size progression route. Also, that way, while you still have ships as stepping stones, you can still revisit them again as buffed up versions.
 
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Or just make premium small ships with better stats and buffed up versions of the existing ones with prices in the 50-100M ranges. You know, like space Ferraris.

That way people can still fly small ships while being competitive and have something to spend their cash on, without having to go to the classic size progression route. Also, that way, while you still have ships as stepping stones, you can still revisit them again as buffed up versions.

I like this idea. I would only want to add: the "space ferrari" versions should look and sounds 100% exactly like their regular counterpart. They could be indicated in the ship name (e.g. "Adder Mk II" or something like that), of course, but otherwise it should be like having the original ship, but with more viable capabilities. I fear however, if FD ever go down that route, they'll follow the same old MMO trope where the better the gear, the more badass it is made to look, and so if you like a simple, clean and beautiful design of some "low level" item, better expect the "high level" variant covered in spikes and on fire...

Edit: Alternative idea, basically the inverse of what you said. Buff the smaller ships, increase their prices accordingly, and finally introduce the concept of "used ships", where you can buy an old run-down version of a ship that will never again live up to its regular, "end game" specs, but looks, feels and sounds the same etc. Basically the "stepping stone" element without making any ship type ever obsolete. New players would start in a "Used Sidewinder" and if they really like the ship, could later get a new "Sidewinder" with much better stats (e.g. speed). It would be funny, a "Used Anaconda" would be slower and less agile than a regular Anaconda, many internal compartments would be broken beyond repair, you can't install anything bigger than a class 5 power plant or FSD etc. Might cost just a few millions but be a worse ship than a new T7. :D
 
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I like this idea. I would only want to add: the "space ferrari" versions should look and sounds 100% exactly like their regular counterpart. They could be indicated in the ship name (e.g. "Adder Mk II" or something like that), of course, but otherwise it should be like having the original ship, but with more viable capabilities. I fear however, if FD ever go down that route, they'll follow the same old MMO trope where the better the gear, the more badass it is made to look, and so if you like a simple, clean and beautiful design of some "low level" item, better expect the "high level" variant covered in spikes and on fire...

Edit: Alternative idea, basically the inverse of what you said. Buff the smaller ships, increase their prices accordingly, and finally introduce the concept of "used ships", where you can buy an old run-down version of a ship that will never again live up to its regular, "end game" specs, but looks, feels and sounds the same etc. Basically the "stepping stone" element without making any ship type ever obsolete. New players would start in a "Used Sidewinder" and if they really like the ship, could later get a new "Sidewinder" with much better stats (e.g. speed). It would be funny, a "Used Anaconda" would be slower and less agile than a regular Anaconda, many internal compartments would be broken beyond repair, you can't install anything bigger than a class 5 power plant or FSD etc. Might cost just a few millions but be a worse ship than a new T7. :D


I like both of these ideas. The MMO Fire and spike approach is a complete turn off for me as well. However, the artists at FD seem to be quite good at understatement, so would trust their vision in any case.
 
Or just make premium small ships with better stats and buffed up versions of the existing ones with prices in the 50-100M ranges. You know, like space Ferraris.

That way people can still fly small ships while being competitive and have something to spend their cash on, without having to go to the classic size progression route. Also, that way, while you still have ships as stepping stones, you can still revisit them again as buffed up versions.

could be great
 
Cant say I would be keen on a Premium version of the small ships as a solution to giving them a niche.
Rather have the small ships keep their utility, than just have a better version for sale.

Small ships for recon, scouting, spying, smuggling, and when passengers come in, they could be for covert ops delivery and extraction and such for passengers that aren't seeking a luxury liner vs more something that might pass beneath notice.
 
I'd rather see different major refits - with both pros and cons - of existing ships than an Eve-like Tier (N) MMO mechanic for Space Ferraris(TM).

E.g. a Core Dynamics refit of a Cobra, or a Lakon Python, or whatever. Or - perish the thought - FD could actually introduce more than a half dozen major manufacturers. ^^ Refits and different manufacturing workshops were a big part of the original ship descriptions.
 
Small ships ought to be able to sidestrafe faster than a large ship can reverse - by quite a margin. Otherwise they simply can't get out of the forward firing arc of a reversing large ship for even a few seconds.

Without the capability of evading heavy damage, small ships just aren't survivable in offensive PvP against heavy targets. Hence they are redundant in combat beyond the early game.
 
I very much agree with the basic premise of giving small ships a niche or five so that they remain useful into endgame, and I agree with most of the great ideas that have been thrown out in this discussion. However, I've had a thought to approach this from a different direction.
Many of these ideas have revolved around balancing small ships against the current big ships eg. Eagles vs Anacondas, based on the assumption that the Anaconda is a "big" ship, like a battleship or a dreadnought.
But what if we assume instead that the Anaconda is, at best, cruiser-sized? Or more likely, merely a frigate or destroyer? (I'm making the assumption that y'all are familiar with the common scifi tropes for space navy ship size progression). Viewed in that light, with the Eagle as a snub-fighter and the Anaconda as a destroyer or light cruiser, the current relative performance of each seems to be much more fitting.

Now back to the topic of making small, one man, fighters more viable in endgame, why not, instead of making Anacondas act like big slow battleships, FD simple adds some new big slow battleships to the game. Huge, docking station sized battleships which take into account all the good ideas that y'all have come up with (turrets that track too slow to hit fighters, sensors that cant detect small ships at range, subsystems that are especially vulnerable to small weapons, etc.) Now, wouldn't that make small fighters much more viable without having to gimp, nerf, or change any existing ships?

Now to head off the inevitable counterargument; I am NOT suggesting that these huge battleships should necessarily be player controlled. What I am envisioning is a mission/warzone/CommunityObjective type thing in which groups of smaller ships try to take down one of these big ships.
(and no, it is not a coincidence that almost all of my post on the forum boil down to begging for huge capital ship battles to be added to the game :p )




Edit: Apparently I'm late to the party; just found out the game already has giant npc battleships; I guess I've just never encountered one; oh well, here's hoping that they become much more common in PowerPlay...
 
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I think that's a cool idea too.

I don't thick so much though that larger ships are "too good," but more so that smaller ships just aren't viable enough. I think they could use a bit of a buff, likely along the lines of maneuverability and speed. But then, I'd like it if all the ships were about twice as maneuverable and fast as they are now. I feel the need... :cool:
 
Or just make premium small ships with better stats and buffed up versions of the existing ones with prices in the 50-100M ranges. You know, like space Ferraris.

That way people can still fly small ships while being competitive and have something to spend their cash on, without having to go to the classic size progression route. Also, that way, while you still have ships as stepping stones, you can still revisit them again as buffed up versions.

Yea, that would also work. So from a technical point of view, we'd probably have a top-grade version of each ship at a similar price and with similar (but not exactly the same) properties. Within cathegories (transporter, multi purpose, light fighter, heavy fighter, corvette) the ships would be very similar, with just some being abit faster and some being a bit more nimble, along with perhaps one having one or two more small module slots and another one instead having one module slot one size bigger. The big difference would be the appearance (and sound) of the ship.

That also very much sounds fine for me, so all the "stepping stones" we currently have, learn to love but ultimatively grow out of, will have a chance to return and be used by experienced pilots.

Addendum: The Anaconda by lore is being used by small armies as light cruiser or frigate. So it's a light battleship for poor armies, for those with normal budget it's barely a corvette. That profile it fits very well in my eyes, any actual "warship" is NPC operated and not available to the players.
 
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