So about space legs.... RPG or FPS?

[Stealthie]

Anyhow I best get back to finishing my 800 block long road tunnel in minecraft.

I once built a railroad that went all the way from my base, through a couple of villages, to a sea-temple and then to a stronghold with an end-portal in it.
... and then I decided that looked a bit dull so I changed it all to a canal system.

I definitely have too much time on my hands.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

See, this is precisely what I don't want from space-legs.

Right now I can repair my ship by looking at the right-HUD, powering up my AFMU, clicking on another module and clicking the "repair" button.
That is an acceptable level of immersion for me.
Creating space-legs just to provide a more long-winded way of doing something I can already do adds absolutely nothing to the game.

Also, from a commercial POV, how exactly would that work?

"Spend your money on Elite: Feet so you can spend longer doing stuff you can already do in-game in a more tedious way"

Now, if space-legs provided a bunch of new gameplay and also allowed you to wander around your ship, fixing things, without the need for an AFMU then it'd be a nice little bonus cos it'd mean you could either fit an AFMU to fix things or use the slot for something else and use your space-legs to fix your ship.

If it's only about wandering around your ships and stations, taking longer to do things that you can already do, it's no-sale I'm afraid.

From what I've read, having never played EVE, I gather that EVE did pretty much that and met with the predictable respones and removed it. Even as a "Legs man" (in more sense than one ) I'd rile against the Devs if they sued "Legs" as "Slow menus".

Ive said in the past that i think the unique part to FPS in elite would be similar to what makes ship to ship fighting fun, power management and null G. Switching between moving freely through space and then anchoring with mag boots to shoot would be really cool. Arguably it is great way to make fighting in corridors of a space station interesting.

Also, as with the ship game play, there will be plenty of non combat elements using scanners and such or maybe even hull repair or something

That style of combat was one of the best things about "Infinite Warfare", whcih I still hold in very high

I would change how hull limpets and the AFMU work. I would make them as bandaids that degrade over time. To keep it up to scratch you will either need to keep repairing with limpets or AMFUs or do the actual proper repairs. Maybe have a synthesis terminal where you can fabricate spare parts for damaged modules for a permanent fix and for the hull, you will need to go out there yourself to do a permanent repair job.

I REALLY LIKE that idea! Please make it a suggestion!

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

If spacelegs comes with FPS, I will delete my save game and uninstall Elite.

Dear lord, a few frames per second really won't hurt.

 

[insanephoton]

RPG in FPS? Unless your target is a vehicle I find it lacks a little finesse.

But seriously most RPG's that I've played do involve the option of some form of combat.

 

[Bloodsign]

I'm hoping FPS, but like Borderlands. In other words, a "heavy" feeling FPS where it's not about fast reflexes, but more about getting good shields, armor, gear, etc.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

RPG in FPS? Unless your target is a vehicle I find it lacks a little finesse.

But seriously most RPG's that I've played do involve the option of some form of combat.

Oh I agree with the options in combat, and if you've ever played Gothic3 (the only one that has 1st person*) you'll see that the NPC's just knock you down and take your stuff... unless you've killed one of them and become an enemy with a deliberate kill move.
What I'm saying here is that there should be a deliberate keypress to kill, or perhaps a kepress to 'disable' then pirating could be a bit more fun, and more importantly 'Murder' could be punished as a heinous crime with draconian measures (none of this namby pamby 'be killed and get a clean slate' business) then, if a player wishes to become a bloodlust warlord then the price will be at the end of his reign, and accidents could be treated as such with the count on record (you can't get away with a whole heap of accidents)

 

[Leper Messiah]

I'd prefer more RPG than FPS, I'd also like it to be NOTHING like engineers which is basically those with bigger guns/thicker armour wins. So I'm thinkning System shock, Deus Ex sort of thing with options for sneaky and non lethal stuff. Let's have a game where the sneaky sod in a stealth suit with a compound bow can use an armour piercing/explosive tipped arrow to take out the "tank" chracater with massive armour and 2 massive gatling guns.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

RPG in FPS? Unless your target is a vehicle I find it lacks a little finesse.

But seriously most RPG's that I've played do involve the option of some form of combat.

An FPS without RPG isn't complete. It takes skill to aim and isn't OP neither. Travel time of the grenade sees to that. Ye, I take RPG any day over more sophisticated AT missiles, they just are more versatile, too.

 

[VR Golgot]

EDIT: Gave this its own thread, if anyone wants to discuss in more depth

---

Theory: Does Braben Want to Revisit Game Mechanics From 'The Outsider' in Elite?

Given this previously mentioned bit:

• Outsider tech being used in Elite already, and "perhaps more so, once you can walk about."

I thought I'd have a deeper dive on what The Outsider was actually intended to be.

TLDR: It was an 'Elite style' open world, with stealth & action options. Story NPCs with simulated 'motivations and aims' would allow players to chose their point of interaction, rather than being locked strictly to a linear 'cut scene' narrative.


Press Release:

Several key proprietary technologies, which Frontier has been developing for some time, make their debut in "The Outsider" and bring the sort of freedom of action first seen in "Elite" bang up to date.

The game radically enriches the player's experience by abandoning the traditional, prescriptive, mostly linear story of current generation games, and replaces it by simulating characters' motivations and aims.

Braben interview with CVG:

How did you first get the idea for the game?

David Braben: As with "Elite", I wanted a back story that did not dictate where the player has to go next; I wanted the player to have their options truly open to carve their own path through the world. Of the many scenarios we considered, I think this one works best.

The 'character-driven non-linear' game mechanic sounds fascinating, how will
this work in practice? How will it directly affect gameplay?

David Braben: It brings a great deal of freedom to the player - moving away from the gameplay-cutscene-gameplay-cutscene format, which gives the player little choice but to follow the proscribed path, and it avoids the uncomfortable problem where you might go to a location to meet a character - but the character doesn't yet exist as the cut-scene hasn't yet played.
With this new approach all the characters exist in the game from the start, and their future actions are not pre-determined - their involvement can be pre-empted by the player, making for some interesting gameplay mechanics second-guessing what is going on, and novel replay value. If you're a contrary gamer like me, who is always wanting to go down the side route, to shoot the character giving the long speech-to-camera, to do the unexpected, then this is the only way forward.

+

"Outsider will offer a visceral combat experience with high tech weaponry or a more stealthy infiltration involving manipulation of the organizations arrayed against you, or combine those two elements so that you get a more diverse playing experience. One without the other would feel an empty experience before long. There is a further mechanic arching over this - one of intrigue and plotting - exploring the rich story behind your betrayal."
+

"The game will of course offer gorgeous graphics - which we all expect on fifth generation titles - but more importantly it radically enriches the player's experience by abandoning the traditional, prescriptive, mostly linear story of current generation games, and replaces it by simulating characters' motivations and aims. This gives the player genuine freedom to change the story outcomes in a way that has not been seen before - each player will get a truly unique, sophisticated, visceral experience rather than simply switching between 'good' or 'evil'."

+

"I think improvements in the way characters behave are going to be a key change. How many games out there now can you walk around with a gun held out, and none of the game characters bat the proverbial eyelid? Even when you shoot the guy next to them!"

+

"Currently there is little characterisation in games, other than that delivered in the story dialogue and/or cut scenes. By this I mean the character cannot in general be tested by the player other than in utterly superficial ways like how quickly they shoot back at you."

---
NB: I can only recover the first page of the original article, but it seems the pull quotes are accurate

Insider talking to Joystiq:

There were some clever twists with disguises, and how the civilians behaved around you. Some really clever AI (or the illusion of cleverness if you like).

---

My Take: I could see FDev generally feeling some of this is 'unfinished business', given how the funding was pulled. I could see Braben personally wanting to experiment in these areas still. (It's obviously an area of interest, given his 2007 'contextual conversation' patent etc).

The station areas of Elite, and the dialled up NPCs, could potentially provide a framework for similar systems. Not regarding a broader narrative, but regarding missions, minor faction behaviours, and general 'crowd' flavour.

Some of what is described in those old sources now feels dated (background NPCs routinely react to drawn weapons now, story NPCs regularly follow variable routine paths etc). While the broader aim of steering a narrative with full open world agency sounds, ultimately, too ambitious. But these are interesting areas of focus. (And the type of areas that could add personality to Elite's safe harbours in space).

Who knows if they actually have capacity for this, are looking into stations now (beyond some possible hints from the files), or whether it would be actually any good if executed.

(And as a caveat, it's notable that they haven't achieved anything as involved or 'emergent' with the ship AI to date).

But it's all intriguingly eccentric

 

[shadowhand]

Why not both?

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

Forgive my pessismism, but I'll believe it when I see it. Legs? Nice, sure, but not just for the sake of itself. I'd like to be able to do something with it, and not just time sinks, either. Something useful. I doubt that's going to happen. The ongoing silence is not encouraging, and the fact that FCs were postponed two months before they were supposed to come out makes me doubt they were even close to being ready, or, indeed, will be ready by the end of 2020.

As it is, I have absolutely no expectations for the big release. None. Certainly not Legs. I seriously doubt those will be in there. If I am lucky, there'll be some new missions, some variety in those missions, some new ships, and (hopefully!) not too many new bugs (I'd like to see lots of old bugs quashed).

I do love ED, it's the one game that keeps drawing me back in. It's just I don't see them adding all the stuff people want, given that Fleet Carriers apparently proved too difficult to implement (at this time). Legs? Likely several times more difficult, particularly for VR (and I play exclusively in VR -- once you've done that, you just cannot play on a screen again, at least I cannot...).

 

[Tenshi]

Since all things seem to point to the april leaks as being accurate, it seems like we are getting space legs as the new era in 2020's big update, so this has left me wondering what we are all hoping for from "space legs", are we wanting another First Person Shooter like Call of Duty? Or are we hoping for a more nuanced Role Playing Game experience where we get to interact with the environment and the characters there in with more than just weapons? Or maybe a bit of a hybrid, with RPG elements away from the battles, but some intense First Person Perspective combat?

Personally; I'd hope for something that contains some good combat missions, but has a lot more depth than a galaxy wide death match, so I'm hoping for the third option of a FPS/RPG hybrid. I'm envisioning something with elements from the "mechanic" genre of games allowing us to dismantle/build/fix/upgrade things, and the ability/requirement to engage in dialogue with NPC's, as well as combat scenarios. I'd imagine that legs will bring about the ability to interact with NPC's at stations, build and leverage relations with them. For example, one such dialogue leveraging previous facours to NPC's could run like "come on bro, after all that Lavian Brandy I brought you at christmas, the very least you can do is find me someone who can help me to get 3 cracked industrial firmware..."

Similarly I'd imagine being approached in a space station by a shadowy operative of a faction that trusted my CMDR asking me to assist in a delicate matter or ending someones political career, permanently. Such a request could see the player having to go one-man-army bloodbath on that NPC's fortified and heavily guarded residence. OR maybe getting a distress call that a megaship is being boarded by thargoids and all passing ships being asked to exterminate the incursion, inside the megaship.

My worry about space legs is that all we will get is tantamount to "Call of Duty: Thargoid-Splatterers" and all the immersive RPG elements and alternatives to "run and gun" shoot-em-up playstyles will be skipped. Having played through the campaign of a good few installments of the Splinter Cell franchise, I would love to see stealthy gameplay being a viable means to complete certain missions. Having played through the original Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis where you had a large amount of tactical freedom in how you went about achieving your objectives, and noone cared how you done it, I'd pray that "Space Legs" will offer the players similar freedoms.

So that is a quick outline of what I hope for from, and what I am affraid we will get as "space legs", whats your thoughts?

Been playing a bit of Star Citizen (yes it has a long long way to go before its finished.) but they have walking around to collect delivery missions, to enter wrecked spaceships for black boxes via EVA, even some FPS missions which sends you into security stations to protect them from smugglers / pirate npcs. Then there is the standard fps pvp aspect as well, along with mining in caves on planets or trying to locate missing people inside of them.

So walking around in Elite Dangerous can be done if there is enough gameplay to warrant it. It's not all about bug hunting or shooting other npcs or players in Star Citizen.

Will it add to the game play of Elite Dangerous though? My answer is yes if the team do it right.

 

[Noddie]

I think I could get behind needing to carry out maintenance on the ship by FPS. Basically if you don't have an AFMU you need to repair it with a toolkit and that involves floating around the ship and engaging in Quazartron-style mini games to re-route power or something. Perhaps even doing an EVA via telepresence?

I've always felt the "damage" model in E D is too simplistic - complex machines don't work like that. It's unpredictable exactly when it will fail and how - you've got a reasonable idea from how much punishment it's taken, but that's about it. I'd also like to see a definite downside to using radically modified components - they may start to accrue damage every time they're used. Radically-tuned drives could start to stress the hull and overcharged weapons become quickly damaged by overheating them- this is the explanation for the "overhead" the engineers find - they're disabling safety devices. So gradual degradation with heavy use make sense, and floating around in a most peculiar way with a snap-on in an EVA-suited hand might be a cool way to fix things. Especially once you've landed on a planet.

I've always disliked the way large ships are dealt with via Automated turrets & essentially being the same to operate as small ones. If they included full NPC crews then you could have to float your way to other stations to carry out repairs or take over the station for something. So I can see space legs working well on large ships, being able to move around them to works on a large NPC ship. It could be pointless on smaller ships, but then your average F16 pilot doesn't get up for a walkaround, do they? - but airliner pilots and cruise ship captains do.

However. I don't want E D to have an FPS attached to it just for pew-pews. I think that'd be a mistake.

 

[Fartzilla]

I just want the FPS in Elite Dangerous to be, well... dangerous. High stakes. Instead of a frenzied bullet-fest like CoD or Quake, I'd rather the ARMA model where a single shot from an unknown location ends you. The decision to draw or fire or even carry a concealed weapon in a station where they're prohibited should always have consequences.

 

[UmbraRex]

Frontier needs to contract with Digital Extremes.

I'll get my coat.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I just want the FPS in Elite Dangerous to be, well... dangerous. High stakes. Instead of a frenzied bullet-fest like CoD or Quake, I'd rather the ARMA model where a single shot from an unknown location ends you. The decision to draw or fire or even carry a concealed weapon in a station where they're prohibited should always have consequences.

Don't worry, it will be once they add the power creep cycle of dumb over-engineered gear performance to it.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Frontier needs to contract with Digital Extremes.

I'll get my coat.

Pls no, I'd like to continue playing Warframe.

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

I just want the FPS in Elite Dangerous to be, well... dangerous. High stakes. Instead of a frenzied bullet-fest like CoD or Quake, I'd rather the ARMA model where a single shot from an unknown location ends you. The decision to draw or fire or even carry a concealed weapon in a station where they're prohibited should always have consequences.

I dont think the 1 shot 1 kill model works for elite. The Ship combat is far from it, and I do not think the multiplayer networking would make this fun (due to the predisposition for rubber-banding or lag).

New COD has a pretty good "time to kill" where if you get the drop on someone, you have the advantage, but it is not impossible for a more accurate shooter to counter attack in time.

Though i think they would likely go with a more borderlands style Shield/health pool, as this would be more consistent with the ship combat