So let me get this straight...

[Spacemonk379]

So remove grandfathered items then I guess?

I get why grandfathering is a necessary to appease all those who sunk a lot of time into engineering but honestly getting rid of them would make things so much better in the long run.

Maybe they could put a timer on it, like after a year after enough time has passed, all old engineered modules reset. That would provide a clean slate for the future without creating a massive outcry from players.

 

[Knightshark]

Shouldn’t folks try the new system first, test in beta and get an informed and complete picture of how everything balances out before rushing to judgement? Why should Frontier pay any attention to knee jerk reactions until we’ve all had a chance to try this out? Isn’t that what beta is for?

Should i waste my time testing how it feels to upgrade a ship from g1 to g5? I played the game for 500h+. I KNOW how upgrading a ship feels, how collecting the materials etc feels. What should a beta change? Will i suddenly realize that collecting thousands of materials per ship is super fun? I don't think so.

And another thing. I spend at least 2-3 hours reading and writing long feedback posts in the feedback forums. I put some thought into my line of reasoning, into the presentation of my arguments, i tried to explain my conclusions as clearly as possible. Without any "knee jerking" - it was a purely rational thing. The same did many, many other users. How about not insulting those that wasted their time giving the feedback Sandor ASKED for in EXACTLY the style and form he wanted (see the pinned threads?).

 

[Roybe]

Old system: I unlock rank 5 by craft&trashing some module i have many materials for (e.g. iron, sulfur). Then i roll 1-2 g5 per module per ship.
New system: I need to get from g1 to g5 for each module and each ship, no matter the "rank". Instead of 1-2 rolls i have to do 20-30 rolls (in that ballpark if they don't change it dramatically).

Or 50-100...or any combination in between...and any roll could be worst than the last...no thanks...engineers sucked before...sucks way less now.


AND if you already have god rolls you get to keep them!

OR all you have to do is recraft from level 4 to 5....your not hurt, at all.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

People need to stop thinking their opinions outweigh the devs. They listen...and ignore and use what they like. Accept you are a player and do what you want.

But some of these things were fairly obvious answers and FD have got it wrong. Grandfathering in unobtainable modules is the most unfair thing I have ever heard from a games dev and I really don't understand the bizarre stance on this. It literally means that going forward the game will be unfair; rigged in favour of the lucky few who got the god-rolls early.

 

[Morbad]

Nope, to "get it straight" most modules with current engineering will be WORSE than the best the new system offers. They did say that at least twice although admitted there would be edge cases that would be slightly switched.

Everyone pushing the limits of their ships, for almost any purpose, is running 'edge cases'.

Most every serious explorer, racer, or combat pilot is running at least some G5 components that are 'god-rolls' or close to it. Personally, I keep maybe one in thirty G5 rolls.

From what I saw in the live stream, it would be impossible to remotely duplicate three or four of my current ships, let alone improve upon them with the new system. Only in a few areas were I've been especially unlucky will it likely be beneficial for me to convert to the new engineering.

If the sort of figures I saw go live without a another substantial boost to their positives or an equally substantial reduction to negatives, I will have a serious advantage over anyone who doesn't already have god-rolls in the current system.

Yes because one module with a few % points between a new and old system max will make all the difference.

In many cases it will, and in many cases the difference won't be a few points. Most god-rolled modules are so good not because of the primary effects, but because of the secondaries.

Without secondaries that act in direct opposition to the primary negatives, there are many modules that I wouldn't even be able to mount, let alone use effectively.

Lets bin the past few months of work and keep the current system where luck trumps skill by massive amounts then because we've not yet experienced the new system and are all jumping to conclusions but we are definitely right!

Let's get rid of all the old rolls. Mandatory conversion to the new system.

Nobody has any information yet.

We saw the live stream. We saw the fixed negatives, and the improved positives of the primaries, then a handful of fixed modifiers that the effects could apply.

 

[Arguendo]

2 rolls if you are lucky and if you already unlocked Grade 5, otherwise you need to do 20 rolls and you don't have access to the materials broker and you potentially get a worse module with the current system. Sorry but so far I like the new system better.

I think you're missing an important part of the new system here. You will have to go through all the grades for every single module in the new system. So if you want to modify two Multicannons you can't just take one to G5 and then go straight to G5 on the second. On the second one you start at G1 again, and do rolls for each grade until you reach G5.
For a new ship with a new "standard" module like the FSD, it's fine. For modules you will use several of on a ship, like all weapons, utilites, and HRPs, it is extremely tedious at best.

People need to stop thinking their opinions outweigh the devs. They listen...and ignore and use what they like. Accept you are a player and do what you want.

I completely agree that they can't listen to every single opinion of every player. The point is that they completely ignored all suggestions. They didn't change a single thing from their original proposal. Nothing.
So, what was the point of the Focused Feedback Forum, if they wouldn't change anything?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

But some of these things were fairly obvious answers and FD have got it wrong. Grandfathering in unobtainable modules is the most unfair thing I have ever heard from a games dev and I really don't understand the bizarre stance on this. It literally means that going forward the game will be unfair; rigged in favour of the lucky few who got the god-rolls early.

Let's be frank - PvP players who have meat to split are worried about this. This means after all some of their competition might be not beatable mano en mano. Although all this arguing have certain meta feel to it. It upsets world order. That's why it is bad.

People outside PvP shrugs and really care less. They don't see Engineers as G5 shop. They see it as something PvP players obsessed with so far and something they didn't bother to check because of work involved and quite a toxicity around it.

So some people will have some god rolls. I am interested in overall performance. I am interested how Engineers will feel like. How well they flow.

 

[Roybe]

But some of these things were fairly obvious answers and FD have got it wrong. Grandfathering in unobtainable modules is the most unfair thing I have ever heard from a games dev and I really don't understand the bizarre stance on this. It literally means that going forward the game will be unfair; rigged in favour of the lucky few who got the god-rolls early.

Says someone who expressed an opinion that the devs didn't listen to. It is their game...you just play it. Fortunately, the open vs. opinion isn't one they listen to either...and the game survives.

As I said above...the god rolled people might or might not keep those rolls....it depends on the new meta that will emerge...which could nullify the god rolls because they are antithetical to the meta.

This is where the PVP people lose...high DPS ships might not fair well if there is a way to work around them. Heat producing god rolls are useless now that the meta moved away from heat damage...

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I think you're missing an important part of the new system here. You will have to go through all the grades for every single module in the new system. So if you want to modify two Multicannons you can't just take one to G5 and then go straight to G5 on the second. On the second one you start at G1 again, and do rolls for each grade until you reach G5.
For a new ship with a new "standard" module like the FSD, it's fine. For modules you will use several of on a ship, like all weapons, utilites, and HRPs, it is extremely tedious at best.

Yes - if your goal is min max everything in your ship.

 

[Roybe]

I think you're missing an important part of the new system here. You will have to go through all the grades for every single module in the new system. So if you want to modify two Multicannons you can't just take one to G5 and then go straight to G5 on the second. On the second one you start at G1 again, and do rolls for each grade until you reach G5.
For a new ship with a new "standard" module like the FSD, it's fine. For modules you will use several of on a ship, like all weapons, utilites, and HRPs, it is extremely tedious at best.


I completely agree that they can't listen to every single opinion of every player. The point is that they completely ignored all suggestions. They didn't change a single thing from their original proposal. Nothing.
So, what was the point of the Focused Feedback Forum, if they wouldn't change anything?

To see if there was something they missed. I guarantee you they realized what would happen with grandfathering...and no one put forth an argument that changed their mind...generally, because they already had that conversation and weighed the outcome.

If you think you have a real strong point to make...do it in the beta...organize a group and show the devs how ugly it really will be....there should be enough god rolled people out there who can hold onto their ships in the beta and destroy the game completely...if not...then the devs have made a decision on the game...and let the edge cases work it out for themselves.

 

[Knightshark]

But you can choose the secondary you want....again, without RNG getting in the way of destroying an already decent roll.

You can buy EXPERIMENTAL effects, not SECONDARIES. It's the latter that makes it possible now to have modules that have no negatives and only positives (like efficient powerplants with INCREASED capacity). That won't be in the new system as far as i can see. And if it will, the power creep will be insane.

 

[Ragnar Drake]

But some of these things were fairly obvious answers and FD have got it wrong. Grandfathering in unobtainable modules is the most unfair thing I have ever heard from a games dev and I really don't understand the bizarre stance on this. It literally means that going forward the game will be unfair; rigged in favour of the lucky few who got the god-rolls early.

It's worse than that - I seem to remember that a fair number of serious PvP players who *have* such god-rolled modules had explicitly said that they'd be OK with losing them in favor of a new system that puts everyone on a level playing field.

We don't want to end up with an system where people end up getting accused of unfair advantages even though they didn't want things to be this way. And even voluntarily giving up engineered modules wouldn't stop the accusations unless people can verify this.

 

[nafeasonto]

Sorry Knightshark, but I will stop you right there. I am casual with ED and I like new system. I don't SUFFER, because I have no assumptions what I should get in first place. You do. You assume I should fast track to G5, I don't. You assume I will just grind it trough, I don't. I will just play the game.

There is no way you are "casual" with this many posts. Stop blindly defending FDev on this HORRIBLE design decision.

 

[Kaocraft]

"It's for the long-term health of the game"

I'm calling it now: Elite is gradually laying the groundwork for transitioning to a F2P model. There will be some sort of "buy mats/loot boxes/boosters to mat drops with real money" scenario at some point in the future.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

None of the major feedback has been taken into account? There will be god rolls that cannot be obtained in the new system that will be grandfathered, creating a mess. There will be modules that are much much better than anything obtainable!? What?!

Plus, we will now have to grind through all grades for all modules for each ship from one to five.

I don’t even know what to say. Why the hell did you even ask for feedback?

Now wonder you NEVER cared to respond and waited till the end (start of beta), worst case scenario confirmed.

LMAO, I doubt somebody even read all the feedback.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

There is no way you are "casual" with this many posts. Stop blindly defending FDev on this HORRIBLE design decision.

I post a lot, because I love argue a lot. Doesn't mean I am always at home where I can play ED. Most of time, I am off somewhere else waiting for something to compile.

Horrible or not, it is there to stay.

"It's for the long-term health of the game"

I'm calling it now: Elite is gradually laying the groundwork for transitioning to a F2P model. There will be some sort of "buy mats/loot boxes/boosters to mat drops with real money" scenario at some point in the future.

Sure. Same thing people said with original Engineers.

Ohhh, wait still no MT or loot boxes around. Must be they just disagree with min maxers. But how could they, min maxers are those who usually win devs.

 

[DaggerSnake]

This. So if you want "the best" you will need to forfeit your grandfather God roll 5, in return for a top level grade 4 new system, then roll until you hit the top of the new grade 5.

Which sounds like it’ll take 5-10 rolls and you’re guaranteed maxed out, likley better than what you had with your choice of enhancement power-up.

Or just keep your old module

 

[Alien]

... Plus, we will now have to grind through all grades for all modules for each ship from one to five. ...

I have to admit, when they first brought in Engineers, I thought this was what you were supposed to do. So for me, Frontier are merely fixing the game to what it should have been to begin with, and only those who had it easy, or took advantage of it, are the ones crying now.

 

[cTravisty]

I completely agree that they can't listen to every single opinion of every player. The point is that they completely ignored all suggestions. They didn't change a single thing from their original proposal. Nothing.
So, what was the point of the Focused Feedback Forum, if they wouldn't change anything?

The point was to allow expression of player feedback, which it did. That they didn't change anything doesn't mean that they wouldn't have, had there been any feedback that caused them to change their minds on the design.

 

[Juniper]

I completely agree that they can't listen to every single opinion of every player. The point is that they completely ignored all suggestions. They didn't change a single thing from their original proposal. Nothing. So, what was the point of the Focused Feedback Forum, if they wouldn't change anything?

This is why I didn't get involved. I learned my lesson the hard way through the DDF. Sandro's record with E: D is replete with examples of crashing ahead with nonsense plans that the player base didn't ask for nor want (PowerPlay, Multicrew, CQC, Engineers...).

Hopefully this will teach more players that expending time, effort and energy trying to help FD is a waste of time. They don't listen, and they don't care. It's ALL lip service. All of it.

But he has a cuddly toy on his shoulder and wears a ridiculous hat. So it's all good, eh?