So, we're actually on schedule?

[bitstorm]

Many of the statements in this post are fully incorrect, wildly inaccurate or personal and anecdotal biased opinion. I do not think we really need to spend more posts on rehashing the same arguments again but hey.

Which are incorrect?

Numbering the lines, on (1) maybe Horizons was £40? I thought it was £40 but the worth a buy review guy said £30 in it when I posted his review of Horizons.

(2-7) seem fine to me.

I can see elsewhere you are trying to argue Horizons wasn't to be a year but I'd disagree with that.

 

[bitstorm]

That is an excellent point. However, I haven't found any actual dates that have been set and then missed.

Well the first one was Horizons 2.1, the rest followed that getting more delayed each time.

Horizons 2.3 was due 2016 Q3 and ended up in Q2 2017.

After that I think they generally cut back on supplying released dates far in advance.

Beyond is/was a 3 year season for example. Was that intended, probably not, but with no hard dates they have the leeway.

 

[Good Whiskey]

I don't think money is an issue, though. I mean, even if you paid £200, isn't that amount of entertainment value not easily derived from what is available and what has been available for the past half decade? I suppose that's a subjective thing though. Everyone puts a different value on their dollar. Or pound.

Well the first one was Horizons 2.1, the rest followed that getting more delayed each time.

Horizons 2.3 was due 2016 Q3 and ended up in Q2 2017.

So we're operating on a progressive single-cycle delay that is now built into the development timeline of the game. Fair enough.

 

[bitstorm]

I don't think money is an issue, though. I mean, even if you paid £200, isn't that amount of entertainment value not easily derived from what is available and what has been available for the past half decade? I suppose that's a subjective thing though. Everyone puts a different value on their dollar. Or pound.


So we're operating on a progressive single-cycle delay that is now built into the development timeline of the game. Fair enough.

I think so yes (but given the known dates of Horizons we could see the delay compounded each time, each being later and later).

But where we stand now, how can we possibly say if we are on/off schedule without the schedule dates being having been supplied in advance?

I think you can argue the big picture that you can't miss a schedule you don't supply yes, especially one where you've switched to "free expansions" with cosmetic income, and that may be fine. (Obviously exception to this is that it throws a spanner in the works for the LEP owners but that's an aside really.)

Personally I would say we are well behind the original schedule from Kickstarter time, also the schedule at Horizons. But incorrect schedules get revised, so you have to ask what schedule.

(Season 1 - 1 year, season 2 - 2 years, season 3 - will have been 3 years)

 

[Stigbob]

I would refer back to the Sammarco quote from 2016. "Just to set the record straight, Space Legs and EVA gameplay, that's way off in the future. That's a goal."

It seems to me that the Elite player base has had about 3 years to come to terms with this. "Way off in the future" certainly isn't "soon".

You don't understand the ability of people who want it right now if not sooner to utterly ignore such easily verifiable facts.

After you've posted that quote at the same guy three times a week for two years you'll understand how the whole "they lied" mantra operates.

 

[Crank Larson]

But where we stand now, how can we possibly say if we are on/off schedule without the schedule dates being having been supplied in advance?

Well... We can't be off the schedule if we never had one...

 

[Dommarraa]

I can see elsewhere you are trying to argue Horizons wasn't to be a year but I'd disagree with that.

As a angry LEPper, I must say I remember FD posting on one of the back-in-the-day threads that a season was NOT exactly a year. They didnt say much more than that, but were not happy for people to assume a strict 12 months (which would have effectively become a yearly subscription), but were happy for people to assume about 18 months per season, and did not attempt to correct their assumption.

The rest of your summary I feel was entirely accurate and reasonable.

 

[Good Whiskey]

You don't understand the ability of people who want it right now if not sooner to utterly ignore such easily verifiable facts.

After you've posted that quote at the same guy three times a week for two years you'll understand how the whole "they lied" mantra operates.

Yeah, I get that. It isn't unique to Elite.

When I read "Way off in the future", that actually speaks volumes to me. It means, with little doubt, "We are not working on that right now". If I had heard that in 2016, I would have anticipated it as a feature some time in the early 2020s. Maybe 21 or 22, assuming everything else went according to plan. I get that Braben has "always imagined" Elite as a game where we as pilots are separable from our ships, but I can't say that I'm disappointed they've deployed ship-only content to date.

Well... We can't be off the schedule if we never had one...

Also very true.

As a angry LEPper, I must say I remember FD posting on one of the back-in-the-day threads that a season was NOT exactly a year. They didnt say much more than that, but were not happy for people to assume a strict 12 months (which would have effectively become a yearly subscription), but were happy for people to assume about 18 months per season, and did not attempt to correct their assumption.

The rest of your summary I feel was entirely accurate and reasonable.

Great post. It highlights that, from what I can tell, they've been careful about not setting hard dates... perhaps especially since they realized early on that they had to control expectations. Based on what I've read though, you do appear to have every right to be a miffed LEP player.

 

[Viajero]

... but I'd disagree with that.

It does not really matter what your personal opinion is, many of those statements of yours were simply fully incorrect or wildly inaccurate. So for the sake of constructive discussions I´d suggest you consider to be a bit more careful and do not try to pass said opinions and innacuracies as facts.

 

[Stigbob]

Yeah, I get that. It isn't unique to Elite.

When I read "Way off in the future", that actually speaks volumes to me. It means, with little doubt, "We are not working on that right now". If I had heard that in 2016, I would have anticipated it as a feature some time in the early 2020s. Maybe 21 or 22, assuming everything else went according to plan. I get that Braben has "always imagined" Elite as a game where we as pilots are separable from our ships, but I can't say that I'm disappointed they've deployed ship-only content to date.

I'm ambivalent about space-feet if we get it that's great, but its not what I bought the spaceship game for and there's no rush for it. On a hugely positive note about it David Braben mentioned he though Alien Isolation was a very good and atmospheric game, which could indicate the sort of high quality they'd be aiming for. They also said it would be so complex it would be like creating an entirely different and separate game so its an "if" rather than a "when".

There was a recent unconvincing leak making claims about it being the next DLC which seemed more than a little trollesque to me. Its already getting to the point that some are absolutely convinced its definitely space-feet 2020/1 and the theorycrafting of exactly how it has to be has started.

It'll then become the next big "they lied" scandal if I'm right its a windup.

 

[bitstorm]

It does not really matter what your personal opinion is, many of those statements of yours were simply fully incorrect or wildly inaccurate. So for the sake of constructive discussions I´d suggest you consider to be a bit more careful and do not try to pass said opinions and innacuracies as facts.

I did ask you which specifically, even numbered the lines so you can pick out your issue(s).

 

[bitstorm]

I think there is an assumption that because some of the leaks have happened that the rest that have not yet occured surely will.

Well you can make that assumption.
Leaks may or may not be accurate, in whole or in part.
Also plans/schedules change, especially with Frontier/ED.
Just sayin y'know.

 

[Stigbob]

Wow, is this leak already dealt with like a 'promise' now?

Unsubstantiated forum rumour direct to broken promise, exactly how we got the "where's my one DLC per year" issue.

 

[Stigbob]

Did they ever say there would be one dlc a year?

Of course not, it doesn't stop people being mad they didn't get it though.

 

[Lightspeed]

I see it didn't take long for the purveyors of self-righteous indignation to misunderstand satire, sarcasm and irony in this thread. I can only assume it's deliberate. Alas, it's downhill from here ....................

 

[DeadMeatGF]

I think you'll find that the longer a commander has played, the longer is the list of empty promises offered by FD.

On a somewhat related note, DB has got to lose the little boy haircut. Either that or go all in with a Lord Fauntleroy.

No, the longer a commander has played the more the things they want, or hear about online, or see in discussions (none of which were promised by FDev) become conflated with the actual schedule.
The OP has gone through the list and shown there's little, if anything, missing - which has no bearing on your inner list of what you thought was promised.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

(Season 1 - 1 year, season 2 - 2 years, season 3 - will have been 3 years)

So following that pattern, the original "10 year plan" will take 55 years, and they'll have to think of some new ideas in 2070.

More seriously ... I'm not sure that 3.4 - 3.6 counts as part of season 3. Version 3, yes, but I think Beyond was officially just 3.0 - 3.3, and since then it's just been "{Month} Update" as the version titles in no particular "season"

 

[Darth Wonko]

I have been roasting in a bread about whether or not we (Elite players) have been lied to. About things. So I started to do some digging to find out whether Frontier has, in fact, (as I potentially misstated) over-promised and under-delivered
.
.
.
So, from a purely objective standpoint, looking at the features that were promised as part of Horizons and Beyond... most (if not all) of these features have been implemented.
.
.
.
Immediately, there isn't much to complain about here. Really. There just isn't.
.
.
.
If we look at this without any bias whatsoever, it is hard to find major features that haven't been made available to all of us.

First off, congratulations on posting this; it is rare that one reflects upon one's stated opinions and then performs research that will either verify or nullify said opinions.
o7

The general gripe originates from the original Design Discussions of what would be liked in the game to that we actually have today. Apparently 'space legs' was on the agenda, as was scooping gas giants, atmospheric planets and cockpit cats...

OH. MY. GOD. HOLD EVERYTHING!

Cockpit Cats?!!?

MUST. HAVE. NOW.

Forget everything else and give us Cockpit Cats!

Sure, but how satisfactorily implemented?

Take Multicrew. Yes it was promised; yes it's been delivered; how many people use it regularly and think it is well implemented and is now an intrinsic and vital feature of the game?
That's the issue some have with how things have been done, not the box being checked off.

My experience of whether a feature is "well implemented and is now an intrinsic and vital feature of the game" has less to do with how the feature is implemented and more to do with players realizing the feature wasn't really all that necessary to begin with.

I'm kind of holding my breath about space legs. I mean... I read about FPS action and stealing ships and that sort of thing. Sure... it sounds great. Until one is walking around in a space station and gets shot by another player and has to limp back to one's ship only to find a different player stole it.

I specifically buy games that are not FPS because I'm not a fan of the genre. If this gets forced on me, I'll probably find something else to play. Or, I'll just play Solo mode.

Think about scooping gas giants... that might look gorgeous... but so does scooping stars. After three or four dozen times, it's just something else we're going to take for granted and to which we won't pay much attention.

Having said that, Cockpit Cats would never get old. We should have Cockpit Cats.

Industry-wide SOP. The only real fault on FD's part is succumbing to the notion that clients/customers need to be lied to.

Wait... didn't we determine FDev didn't lie?


"walking in stations and walking and driving vehicles on entire 1:1 scale populated living planets"
Does anyone get how massive this undertaking truly is? And how much people are going to gripe about it?

I'm talking about the 1:1 scale.

If anyone has played a recent Assassin's Creed game (think Origins or Odyssey), the map detail is stunning and beautiful.. And they are HUGE. It takes a long time (relatively speaking) to travel from one side of the map to the other.

The size of the map in Odyssey, by the way, works out to about 90 square miles. The real world area of that map is about 90,000 square miles.

Imagine how crappy that game would be to play if one was on horseback traveling from Athens to Thessaloniki at 20 miles per day?

Fast forward to 3306 or 3307 with 1:1 scale worlds and cities.

The solution to all of this, though, is Cockpit Cats.

Really... we need to make that happen.

 

[bitstorm]

There must be a hidden rule for this forum that elevates a certain number of likewise opinions into the state of truth. Now I only need to find out this certain threshold.
... wow, am I already talking about politics?

I think many people come here for information and generally believe what's said on the forum yes.

I think people expected a season/year to be a rough figure.

Here's a sample of what was going round at the time...


Season in tv are generally 1 year.

Season 1 of Elite Dangerous was a 1 year season.

Horizons (released Dec 2015) was described by Frontier as "extending into 2016" aligning with a 2016 season. [https://community.elitedangerous.com/en/node/247]

Here's how Horizon's was presented by Frontier at the time :

2.1 - Q1 Spring
2.2 - Q2 Summer
2.3 - Q3 Autumn
2.4 - ???

Here's Obsidian Ant saying it's about a season/year :

Source: https://youtu.be/ExHRRb3FhrU?t=19


Here's the main Horizons forum FAQ by the guy who does all the forum faqs saying it's about a season/year :

Elite Dangerous: Horizons and Future Updates

Edit: 4th August 2016 - You can read the below (which is probably out of date) or better still go look at my little blog here to get all things related to Horizons and future updates. You can however view the pretty picture version of the previous information here Release Dates & Prices...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Here's a moderator saying that Frontier said it's about a season/year (note this is a Google translation) :

The way in which FDEV seems to have explained how the expansions will work is through "seasons" that seem to last about 1 year each, or so although it is not known for sure. During each season one of the additional aspects of each expansion or new expansions will be launched and things will be added to it during that season.

Each season / year will require a specific payment, unless you have the lifetime expansion pass. What we don't know is what it will cost each season, or how much discount they will make to existing players. If we rely on the cost of this first season for existing players we are talking about 40 euros a year / season, or so. But I say, we still don't know how much future seasons will cost or discount. And as usual there will always be the option of waiting for Steam season sales etc.

It's true though, no-one can seem to find Frontier actually specifically stating it. But you can see that the belief that it was a season/year was widespread at the time and being pushed via virtually all channels. If it was all wrong then it would have been nice if Frontier could have at least tried to clarify it. And as I say it'd be no skin off Frontier's nose to throw out the odd bone but it seems to be a non-issue for them, got the moneys haven't they and ED has subsequently made millions so

 

[Frenotx]

Keep in mind that there's potentially a gulf of difference between "technically in the game" ticking of boxes, and, "implemented in a satisfactory, stable, cohesive fashion."