Powerplay Sol bubble Archer systems progress wiped

[Shurimal]

if you as a player want to play the strategy game, you have to organize, and the PP1.0 groups are already organized and numerous.

...and, it seems to me, in many cases calcified in their ways, unwilling to throw old paradigms out and truly restart the Powerplay.

There's nothing preventing new players from having their own vision of a power and creating their own group, but that's a lot more work than joining an existing community,

True, it's always easier to go where everyone already is. The saying "build it and they'll come" cuts both ways.

especially when you consider that the veterans are not just directing the troops but also giving them help in getting better at the game

The old PP needed massive coordination and centralized command due to the quagmire of obscure mechanics and pitfalls (CC, 5th column etc). Powerplay 2 is not ideal, but much easier to figure out and be effective at in a decentralized manner. I came back to game after a few months of sabbatical in Space Engineers last week, pledged on Sunday and by today I have a pretty good idea of what to do where and how, figuring things out on my own as I went. The new system is much more transparent, fool-proof and needs no central command to guide the grunts, just willingness to look at the map and some basic strategic thinking. Of course large groups will always have raw numerical advantage, but it seems in PP2 a small group of 10, maybe even just 5, can concentrate their force in surgical ops to flip or fortify off-the-beaten-path systems effectively--or at the very least cause major disruption and distraction for the opforce.

in Orrere there is an anarchic settlement Trau Extraction Base which has 8 data ports.

8 ports to download an average per port of, what, 1.5 PP data giving 360 merits each--that's 4000+ merits in total. Plus each PP malware upload gives 248 merits, with 8 ports that's nearly 2000 merits on top of that, and anarchy settlements are naturally a favoured place to do all that (no need to be all sneaky, no bounties for massacring everyone or complications like Omnipol). The way I see it, that place is a merit farm for everyone, plain and simple. Disclaimer: never been there myself and the merit amounts for PP data are for Kaine, other powers may differ(?). For defenders, best course of action--if my conjecture is true--is to push the anarchy faction into war and make them lose that war to give the settlement to a non-anarchy faction.

 

[Tifu]

The new system is much more transparent, fool-proof and needs no central command to guide the grunts, just willingness to look at the map and some basic strategic thinking. Of course large groups will always have raw numerical advantage, but it seems in PP2 a small group of 10, maybe even just 5, can concentrate their force in surgical ops to flip or fortify off-the-beaten-path systems effectively--or at the very least cause major disruption and distraction for the opforce.

Agreed. There's just too much ground to watch & cover, even for a sizable organized group. Nowadays, an opposing lone commander or small group can have the initiative & pick the timing of their PP fights.

No need to consult & wait for the response of central command. It's guerilla warfare instead of an orchestrated attack.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No need to consult & wait for the response of central command. It's guerilla warfare instead of an orchestrated attack.

This is both good and bad- its good as it removes 5C but bad in that its essentially BGS speed (and not PP1 pace- that is, each week can be catastrophic at a power wide level). The other problem is that its far easier and profitable to act defensively than attack- so large powers will remain large. FD really need something like this to actually drive things: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...owers-galactic-standing.630861/#post-10494668

 

[zimms]

I think it's naive to think that power blocks wouldn't form in an overtly political minigame that requires large groups of players to coordinate to actively move the map. Likewise for lore reasons certain factions were somewhat inevitable, and others (like Grom joining ZDAYA) was a direct consequence of Feds actions and Imperial diplomacy. There are a lot of Fed players in terms of understanding the mechanics and having time to spend to move the map, but until you get better at the metagame (aka propaganda and diplomacy) you're going to continue to be the underdogs. If you spent more time convincing players why your way was better instead of complaining that other people have all the friends then you'd probably get more traction.

I don't buy it. All powers combined there's probably a few dozen people who are "in charge" of them all. They have been frenemies for years and won't change their way. The vast majority of more casual players doesn't care about their "diplomacy" and probably haven't even heard of them. The conflicts simply happened out of circumstance. All powers except the Federal ones could expand outward to grow in a healthy way. For the Federation, every move meant stepping on someone's toes. And since most famous and juicy systems are closer to the core, the other Powers were eyeing up the Federation and picked at them from all sides. I don't think it ever was a matter of "get better at diplomacy". Not even in Grom's case. All the lore about him is him being hostile to the Federation, it was just logical that he would get in the boat with the Empire.

 

[Tifu]

This is both good and bad- its good as it removes 5C but bad in that its essentially BGS speed (and not PP1 pace- that is, each week can be catastrophic at a power wide level). The other problem is that its far easier and profitable to act defensively than attack- so large powers will remain large. FD really need something like this to actually drive things: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...owers-galactic-standing.630861/#post-10494668

I like both ideas - the Thargoid style of war report highlighting the systems most in danger so commanders can take their cue (or not) and set their priorities accordingly & the bonus merits system scaling bonuses higher for attacking the higher ranking power rather than the weaker ones.

FD should have a community feedback activity on PP 2.0 before colonization really kicks off and the two new major activities intertwine irreversibly.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I like both ideas - the Thargoid style of war report highlighting the systems most in danger so commanders can take their cue (or not) and set their priorities accordingly & the bonus merits system scaling bonuses higher for attacking the higher ranking power rather than the weaker ones.

FD should have a community feedback activity on PP 2.0 before colonization really kicks off and the two new major activities intertwine irreversibly.

The biggest balancing act really is ensuring large powers (which are by virtue of size are at the top of the standing) are the ones targeted the most to drive competition.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The way I see it, that place is a merit farm for everyone, plain and simple

The catch is the System Strength Penalty (at Very High, will cut merit earning for underminers by about a third) and the Beyond Frontline Penalty (depends on Power: fine for Mahon or Kaine, terrible for Delaine or Antal). Neither apply to reinforcing ... but quite a few Odyssey actions are undermining/acquisition-only so you also lose potential earnings there.

Between those most people would expect to get under half the normal merits - there will certainly be a surface base which is much more effective somewhere.

The biggest balancing act really is ensuring large powers (which are by virtue of size are at the top of the standing) are the ones targeted the most to drive competition.

...somehow without introducing a "we don't want that expansion because it'll weaken our power as a whole if we keep it" situation again.

I think the key might be to introduce a lot of low-efficiency but passive undermining actions which someone just doing non-Powerplay stuff in a system might do. Adding "scan ships" to the undermining list would be an obvious one. Nothing that's going to give any deliberate player any issues, just something which will generate a few hundred undermining control score each week in most systems to compensate for the similar effects of pledged players doing activities without Powerplay intent.

 

[serakfalcon]

I think the key might be to introduce a lot of low-efficiency but passive undermining actions which someone just doing non-Powerplay stuff in a system might do.

I totally agree with this one. Adding a mechanical penalty for being top of the leaderboard is lame. But being stretched because keeping all the systems you have is a constant maintenance time sink makes a lot of sense.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I totally agree with this one. Adding a mechanical penalty for being top of the leaderboard is lame. But being stretched because keeping all the systems you have is a constant maintenance time sink makes a lot of sense.

There are several issues that are baked in that having a penalty solves though- mainly that its a non partisan way of painting a target on the largest powers (thus loosening things such as ZYADA, FUC or KALE). It guides individuals passively to drive Powerplay and the ultimate aim of actually fighting others (i.e. it gives impetus to target the top) and is a fairer way of imposing overheads since you actually have to UM still to 'claim'.

Whats missing which PP1 had (ironically) is a balance to that- 1/2/3 position rewards. In this case you could have those bonuses back at the same time, so the top 5 enjoy them but also have the downside of being a target too.

Otherwise, what really drives the leaderboard (or even why its relevant anymore)? FD nailed the low level PP but the reasons, drive and ability to go up the board are totally absent.

 

[serakfalcon]

Otherwise, what really drives the leaderboard (or even why its relevant anymore)? FD nailed the low level PP but the reasons, drive and ability to go up the board are totally absent.

Yeah it's a fair point that in the short term there's been a lot of work to do to firm up borders, remove enclaves, stake out territory, etc but with only a few systems sentimental enough or lore important enough to want for sentimental reasons there really isn't much point to be big anymore and with reinforcement being wayy overpowered compared to undermining we're really just a few years from effective stasis. Would be nice if Fdev spent a bit more time to balance things out. I would be ok with mechanical penalties if they came with mechanical perks although it will be hard to balance. Imo you don't want to be in the situation where a Power wants to be fourth, and is actively discouraging activity that would cause it to expand. That doesn't help with dynamism. Tbh a buff to undermining would go a long way rather than any leaderboard mechanic.

 

[Zechs Darius]

Yeah right now undermining is a bit too uphill a struggle. It's easier just to contest and win every acquisition instead. Makes it a land grab. At the very least maybe mechanics should be introduced that nerf the securty/control points of areas of space cut off from the rest of their faction/cut off from their factions home system via jump.

I am not sure I agree that factions are led by PP 1.0 guys calcified in their ways. Indeed I like to think that our lot played no small part in shaking up that snow globe a little. Certainly it's farmed some salt these past months.

I think the problem is that Blocs are always going to be formed. Always. Because we all know that if one group is allied, it's in mutual self interest to ally with our own guys too. It just doesn't make sense to go solo when everyone else is in groups. Some people are all like "no we're gonna do our own thing" great, you do you. But you won't be part of any serious co-ordinated efforts and will just be acting renegade against your own powers direction. If you wanna do that, join a Fed faction or Archon. There is absolutely no negative to being in a friendly bloc, and every security disadvantage to going it alone.

Then you have the inherent inbalance in ways to gain merits.
Kaine, Winters and Aisling at least get the short end of the stick compared to ALD & Archer with what's available, for example.

Balance definitely needs some work.

This said. Is it balanced to wipe out an entire sphere with hand of god...?

I also believe that before FDEV move on to the next big thing (colonization) They should maybe take a moment, and a month or two to fix some stuff. Look at the PPCZs. More than half of the time they don't work in open. That sucks. I really hate going into Solo for combat of all reasons. I hate the very idea of it. Then of course we have S&R not giving out merits, we have rares disabled... Ok, honestly given how OP that was, maybe that can stay down...

We have lists and lists of care packages all with things like Crystal shards or ody mats because our bins are full, and no way to consolidate them, There is definitely neatening up that can be done.

 

[Shurimal]

Some people are all like "no we're gonna do our own thing" great, you do you. But you won't be part of any serious co-ordinated efforts and will just be acting renegade against your own powers direction.

Where do these directions come from? In game, I mean, not some hidden Discord chatrooms most players have no idea even exist? How are these actions decided, democratic consensus in a flat hierarchy or a dictate of "the boss"? What if 20% of the chatroom members disagree? 50%? 70%? How is it possible to go "renegade" if there are no negative actions against your own power in PP2? Do the in-game weekly assignments send players "renegade" when they direct to undermine an "allied" power? Not to mention that everything in game strongly implicates that there are no "allied" (or even neutral) powers and it's a huge 12-way political and (para)military furball. What does "renegade" even mean in a freeform decentralized game system with no win or lose conditions above (or below) star system level?

 

[Zechs Darius]

Where do these directions come from? In game, I mean, not some hidden Discord chatrooms most players have no idea even exist? How are these actions decided, democratic consensus in a flat hierarchy or a dictate of "the boss"? What if 20% of the chatroom members disagree? 50%? 70%? How is it possible to go "renegade" if there are no negative actions against your own power in PP2? Do the in-game weekly assignments send players "renegade" when they direct to undermine an "allied" power? Not to mention that everything in game strongly implicates that there are no "allied" (or even neutral) powers and it's a huge 12-way political and (para)military furball. What does "renegade" even mean in a freeform decentralized game system with no win or lose conditions above (or below) star system level?

Oh It's totally discord servers, totally linked from posts in this very forum I believe. I am fairly sure most of coordinated Elite from the Wing level up is discord servers.
Each superpower/group has their own internal processes of decision and election. I was tapped for my position and agreed with a certain degree of reluctance.

In this case: Renegade means making actions that cause diplomatic problems with allies. Say for example a bunch of Winters Pilots decide that an Archer system on their border is an easy target and take it out, then Archer HQ will have to contact Winters HQ asking "what man, we're allies". Winters HQ would then have to explain "It wasn't our guys, it was randos".

You can totally read it your way if you want in that it's a 12 way furball, and you can even play it that way. But for those of us involved in organized PP, it's definitely a renegade action, which would likely result in some PP coordinator posting a gif of Ben Affleck smoking somewhere. That's not even touching the fact that given the huge amount of merits that can be swung around, on average your random guys just won't be doing the focused damage/work needed that coordination and cooperation can bring.

I posit that given the superpower alignment of 8 of the 12 powers, if Elite Started today with PP2.0 mechanics, and a PP 1.0 that never existed. Blocs would be formed by 2025...

Lastly, if there were talks about dismantling these Superpower Alliances that I am currently for some reason defending, I'd stop to ask 'why'. I am sure the Imperials and Alliance would love FUC to disband and / or infight. I am sure FUC would LOVE ZYADA to be gone. So on, so forth. It's all politics.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Oh It's totally discord servers, totally linked from posts in this very forum I believe. I am fairly sure most of coordinated Elite from the Wing level up is discord servers.
Each superpower/group has their own internal processes of decision and election. I was tapped for my position and agreed with a certain degree of reluctance.

In this case: Renegade means making actions that cause diplomatic problems with allies. Say for example a bunch of Winters Pilots decide that an Archer system on their border is an easy target and take it out, then Archer HQ will have to contact Winters HQ asking "what man, we're allies". Winters HQ would then have to explain "It wasn't our guys, it was randos".

You can totally read it your way if you want in that it's a 12 way furball, and you can even play it that way. But for those of us involved in organized PP, it's definitely a renegade action, which would likely result in some PP coordinator posting a gif of Ben Affleck smoking somewhere. That's not even touching the fact that given the huge amount of merits that can be swung around, on average your random guys just won't be doing the focused damage/work needed that coordination and cooperation can bring.

I posit that given the superpower alignment of 8 of the 12 powers, if Elite Started today with PP2.0 mechanics, and a PP 1.0 that never existed. Blocs would be formed by 2025...

Lastly, if there were talks about dismantling these Superpower Alliances that I am currently for some reason defending, I'd stop to ask 'why'. I am sure the Imperials and Alliance would love FUC to disband and / or infight. I am sure FUC would LOVE ZYADA to be gone. So on, so forth. It's all politics.

You really should be saying 'large groups' rather than infer you run a power, because in PP2 you don't- you simply direct people to a beneficial course of action in a system that is heavily dentralised. 5C no longer exists, and since all actions are 'good' labeling someone renegade because they don't do what you say is silly. While the bare bones of it exists in game now it would not take much for FD to make proper lists of areas in a power that need help- cutting out the need for any direction for the average player.

These large groups are really remnants of PP1 where after a year or so players gravitated away and you had a very small core of players that really did run powers. And when I say that I mean exactly that- an almost 1:1 map of plan > action.

 

[serakfalcon]

You really should be saying 'large groups' rather than infer you run a power, because in PP2 you don't- you simply direct people to a beneficial course of action in a system that is heavily dentralised. 5C no longer exists, and since all actions are 'good' labeling someone renegade because they don't do what you say is silly. While the bare bones of it exists in game now it would not take much for FD to make proper lists of areas in a power that need help- cutting out the need for any direction for the average player.

These large groups are really remnants of PP1 where after a year or so players gravitated away and you had a very small core of players that really did run powers. And when I say that I mean exactly that- an almost 1:1 map of plan > action.

It's cute and naive to think that coordinated action would go away, or somehow have a muted effect compared to random mob action. Even if Fdev made those lists a group of players would easily be able to manipulate them to get randoms on board, never mind about posting people in system chat to direct merit farmers to "better" locations.

Are you a libertarian by any chance?

 

[Zechs Darius]

You really should be saying 'large groups' rather than infer you run a power, because in PP2 you don't- you simply direct people to a beneficial course of action in a system that is heavily dentralised. 5C no longer exists, and since all actions are 'good' labeling someone renegade because they don't do what you say is silly. While the bare bones of it exists in game now it would not take much for FD to make proper lists of areas in a power that need help- cutting out the need for any direction for the average player.

These large groups are really remnants of PP1 where after a year or so players gravitated away and you had a very small core of players that really did run powers. And when I say that I mean exactly that- an almost 1:1 map of plan > action.

Not sure I am seeing where I am inferring I am running a power there. I have a position in a number of Councils, sure but I certainly am not one man running a show and if that's the impression I am giving, I do apologize. I am however saying that these large groups within the PP community have, do and will continue to exist as long as the servers are up. I figured "Renegade action" sounds better than just "Being a Rando" Because I suppose we are all randos in someone elses game. Organized guys get things done though.

Addressing this though:

"These large groups are really remnants of PP1 where after a year or so players gravitated away and you had a very small core of players that really did run powers. And when I say that I mean exactly that- an almost 1:1 map of plan > action."

Ultimately these superpower communities exist where direction is given to members, and they can choose to either ignore it or go with it as part of a community effort. I maintain that if the game started today, these supergroups and Alliances would still form naturally. The Only differences would be how players control the politics between the superpowers. If everything was blank slate, new game, new players, would the Alliance be friendlier with the Feds or Imperials, and why? Would Archon Delaine be a Fed ally? Would the other independents pick sides or go solo? Would they found an indy coalition?

I very much doubt, with every fibre of my being that everyone would just agree that it's "all against all" for any significant length of time. Because that's just not how human beings work, is it?

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's cute and naive to think that coordinated action would go away, or somehow have a muted effect compared to random mob action. Even if Fdev made those lists a group of players would easily be able to manipulate them to get randoms on board, never mind about posting people in system chat to direct merit farmers to "better" locations.

Are you a libertarian by any chance?

No, just someone who ran two PP1 powers, established Discords used today and ran Reddits organizing said powers.

The reason why PP1 groups held so much sway was that there was a dearth of good moves available and a sea of bad ones, and that with so few players it was imperative votes, prep, expansions etc were done to 'the plan'.

Plus, where did I say coordinated action would end? I'm talking about the end of groups claiming to speak for powers when in effect they don't. You can never fully control or account for others so assuming so is, well, silly.

 

[Zechs Darius]

There are always outliers. But there are always coordinated players too.

We can only say we speak for those we coordinate with. Which are the Communities tied to the powers in the discords mentioned elsewhere.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Not sure I am seeing where I am inferring I am running a power there. I have a position in a number of Councils, sure but I certainly am not one man running a show and if that's the impression I am giving, I do apologize. I am however saying that these large groups within the PP community have, do and will continue to exist as long as the servers are up. I figured "Renegade action" sounds better than just "Being a Rando" Because I suppose we are all randos in someone elses game. Organized guys get things done though.

Addressing this though:

"These large groups are really remnants of PP1 where after a year or so players gravitated away and you had a very small core of players that really did run powers. And when I say that I mean exactly that- an almost 1:1 map of plan > action."

Ultimately these superpower communities exist where direction is given to members, and they can choose to either ignore it or go with it as part of a community effort. I maintain that if the game started today, these supergroups and Alliances would still form naturally. The Only differences would be how players control the politics between the superpowers. If everything was blank slate, new game, new players, would the Alliance be friendlier with the Feds or Imperials, and why? Would Archon Delaine be a Fed ally? Would the other independents pick sides or go solo? Would they found an indy coalition?

I very much doubt, with every fibre of my being that everyone would just agree that it's "all against all" for any significant length of time. Because that's just not how human beings work, is it?

Again, in PP2 no move is bad, so you can't call people renegades for doing what they want- something that really was bad in PP1 where doing your own thing was lethal.

I fully expect you'd have groups coalesce regardless but it would very much be like PMFs and not monolithic groups- you'd have it much like Aislings early activity where you had two primary groups fight between each other for overall control.

These groups and diplomacy also came about due to SCRAP and trying to keep a broken game civil, which then mutated into the weaponsied powers seen in late PP1.

I very much doubt, with every fibre of my being that everyone would just agree that it's "all against all" for any significant length of time. Because that's just not how human beings work, is it?

The issue here is that there is no impetus to be #1- in PP1 you had the idea of collapse and FD dangled that when PP2 was released regards unsupported powers breaking down. Currently there is no real pressure to compel powers to compete and that groups see the superpower alignment above that of the power leaders values and morals.

 

[Shurimal]

Oh It's totally discord servers, totally linked from posts in this very forum I believe. I am fairly sure most of coordinated Elite from the Wing level up is discord servers.

So it's deep web that is not searchable, not findable and not usable by those who don't want to do anything with the privacy nightmare that is Discord. Secret deep web is of course necessary for opsec, but I think that the main PP2 comms platform should be neutral, unopinionated and not playing politics. It's only purpose should be various splinter cells/solo operators informing each other of what ops they are involved in and seeking/offering help for those ops, not a top-down command structure with a diplomatic corps attachment.

Each superpower/group has their own internal processes of decision and election. I was tapped for my position and agreed with a certain degree of reluctance.

OK, good for you. I'm sure you're a good leader, I just happen to be strongly opinionated when it comes to Powerplay blocs, player minor factions and BGS

In this case: Renegade means making actions that cause diplomatic problems with allies. Say for example a bunch of Winters Pilots decide that an Archer system on their border is an easy target and take it out, then Archer HQ will have to contact Winters HQ asking "what man, we're allies". Winters HQ would then have to explain "It wasn't our guys, it was randos".

You can totally read it your way if you want in that it's a 12 way furball, and you can even play it that way. But for those of us involved in organized PP, it's definitely a renegade action, which would likely result in some PP coordinator posting a gif of Ben Affleck smoking somewhere.

Since we the "renegades" never signed or agreed to any clauses, treatises or codes of conducts that we must follow in PP, outside of game and outside of Fdev ToS, and inside the game the only condition we did sign was "work to propagate the Power, get benefits, face the risks", it's really only PP group leaders' problem, and group leaders' alone. No offence.

That's not even touching the fact that given the huge amount of merits that can be swung around, on average your random guys just won't be doing the focused damage/work needed that coordination and cooperation can bring.

I've been doing focused work and quite a heavy lifting alone in one acquisition system this cycle (there are a few randoms doing some work, but no-one else I've seen on a regular basis in my time zone), I've been pushing the needle quite well with ~100000 merits so far (partly due to very favourable conditions from Thursday to Sunday in that system) and I have a general outline for the next few cycles. I'm sure a small group of 5...10 can really make a difference with similar focused effort. Also, a focused action of 5, or even just two friends, is by definition organized PP, no less valid than a massive Discord group of, say, 1000.

I posit that given the superpower alignment of 8 of the 12 powers, if Elite Started today with PP2.0 mechanics, and a PP 1.0 that never existed. Blocs would be formed by 2025...

Sure, someone would decide to "play statecraft", but there would be a lot of splinter groups, small squadrons doing their own thing and either not caring about interpower alliances or having a diametrically different alliance. Eg I can easily envision a non-aggression pact between a group of Winters and a group of Kaine pledges, since both powers represent the more progressive wings with similar values and policies in their respective superpowers. I feel the PP would be much more interesting this way. We don't want uncontrollable chaos in real life, but in video games uncontrollable (PvP) chaos makes for fun gameplay

Lastly, if there were talks about dismantling these Superpower Alliances that I am currently for some reason defending, I'd stop to ask 'why'. I am sure the Imperials and Alliance would love FUC to disband and / or infight. I am sure FUC would LOVE ZYADA to be gone. So on, so forth. It's all politics.

Yes, it's all politics. And as with all politics there are bound to be splinter groups and dissenting opinions within the same party. I happen to be one of those dissenting voices since I really love chaotic whirlwinds in games (and also in other media), rather than a boring stalemate where everything goes according to The Plan all the time and nothing interesting ever happens. That's why Thargoid war was so good in the beginning before the Great Sampling Project--it was an all-out all-hands-on-deck conflict against a relentless power with whom diplomacy and treatises were simply not an option.