Something I'd like to say to those complaining about the new engineer system.

[Hellakitty]

This would work better for me tbh.

I think I'd voluntarily pay a lot more for that option.

Option A - you supply, get upgrade minimal cost.
Option B - we supply you pay. Expensive option.

I'd take option B any time of day, I don't have enough lifetime left for A

Agreed. I don't care how much it costs to skip the mind-numbing grind of getting enough G5 mats to engineer a fleet or even a few new ships. My purse is open, take what you want Engineers. Just please let me get back to playing the game, the bit where the fun is.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

Personally, I find the trade-off between a couple more lower grade rolls to get to the good G5 rolls is more than acceptable.

The higher mat requirements are offset nicely by them being much, much easier to get hold of, and the ability to continue Engineering at any station with a Remote Workshop... meaning I can trade mats and then finish modding without having to leave the station in some circumstances.

The one thing that irks me is that Remote Workshops don't convert legacy mods. AND that Jameson Memorial doesn't have a material trader. AND that Distribution Centres have all but disappeared from the game. So, more than one thing, but still.

 

[Malbek]

I infinitely prefer the new system. I avoided the old one like the plague other than for my explorer FSDs. With the material traders and level 5 mats dropping from missions, getting the materials isn't a maddening grind anymore.

 

[Hellakitty]

I infinitely prefer the new system. I avoided the old one like the plague other than for my explorer FSDs. With the material traders and level 5 mats dropping from missions, getting the materials isn't a maddening grind anymore.

Except it is, the ones that spawn in HGE's and things that don't come as mission rewards like DWE's are still an exercise in broken RNG (which only works occasionally) and utter tedium, just to have the broken RNG at the top of the G5 engineering scale devour them in no time at all.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

Except it is, the ones that spawn in HGE's and things that don't come as mission rewards like DWE's are still an exercise in broken RNG (which only works occasionally) and utter tedium, just to have the broken RNG at the top of the G5 engineering scale devour them in no time at all.

It's still a grind, just not a maddening one. Find some other easier to obtain G5 manufactured mats and trade them for the ones you want? Remember you no longer have to look for the exact mats you want now.

The broken RNG at the top of the G5 scale isn't anywhere near as broken as the previous RNG at G5.

 

[Hellakitty]

It's still a grind, just not a maddening one. Find some other easier to obtain G5 manufactured mats and trade them for the ones you want? Remember you no longer have to look for the exact mats you want now.

The broken RNG at the top of the G5 scale isn't anywhere near as broken as the previous RNG at G5.

The exchange rate is broken enough to make that pretty much a no-go area. I spent 3x full bins of MEF exchanging for other G5's and still I've run out of certain ones on more than one occasion.

And the broken RNG is just as broken as it ever was. Sometimes it's so broken it doesn't even work. I spent four hours farming DWE's and I ran out almost immediately when I came to engineer a few ships because of the stupid "sometimes maxing G5 takes 5 rolls, sometimes it takes 13" bull****. That's not rewarding, nor is it meaningful mechanics. That's tedium for the sake of tedium, with some heavily weighted against the player RNG thrown on top just to maximise the tedium.

Anyway, I've stopped engineering my fleet or any new ships until this absolute mess is fixed, or at least alleviated to a decent degree.

 

[Kaocraft]

Yep, you still get that in ED. You can by E,D,C,B and A rated modules.


Nope, its more like getting those materials and then asking someone else to modify the product you have already bought. There is no crafting, it is modifying your equipement for you. Your analogy is completely wrong and doesn't make sense.


Whether it is an inane meaningless waste of space is down to the individual. In reality all computer games are a meaningless waste of time. As long as you are having fun, that is the important part. As soon as I stop having fun, then it's time to put the game away and find something else.

Show me the E,D,C,B,A and a modules in this game that would be analogous to swords?

Oh that's right there aren't any tiers to weapons there are just fixed, gimballed, and turreted weapons with different uses. The copper sword is a G1 Pulse laser, the Steel sword is a G5 pulse laser.

I win again.

And my winning this argument is important, because if the analogy isn't a 100% airtight comparison then there's No Possible Way for you to ever engage with the underlying point I was trying to get at. We absolutely MUST argue about which particular type of hypothetical fantasy equipment Elite's outfitting is most closely analogous to because otherwise we'd have to discuss the intricacies of the actual systems in Elite.

Now, are the different FSD modules the equivalent of different breeds of horses, and then the engineering is like horeshoes and saddles? Or are the different FSDs more like different animals altogether, and the engineering tiers are different breeds of different animals? Be sure to think carefully and answer correctly because if we don't answer these questions, there is no way of knowing whether or not Elite's engineering system is well designed or not.

 

[Darty]

Show me the E,D,C,B,A and a modules in this game that would be analogous to swords?

Oh that's right there aren't any tiers to weapons there are just fixed, gimballed, and turreted weapons with different uses. The copper sword is a G1 Pulse laser, the Steel sword is a G5 pulse laser.

I win again.

And my winning this argument is important, because if the analogy isn't a 100% airtight comparison then there's No Possible Way for you to ever engage with the underlying point I was trying to get at. We absolutely MUST argue about which particular type of hypothetical fantasy equipment Elite's outfitting is most closely analogous to because otherwise we'd have to discuss the intricacies of the actual systems in Elite.

Now, are the different FSD modules the equivalent of different breeds of horses, and then the engineering is like horeshoes and saddles? Or are the different FSDs more like different animals altogether, and the engineering tiers are different breeds of different animals? Be sure to think carefully and answer correctly because if we don't answer these questions, there is no way of knowing whether or not Elite's engineering system is well designed or not.

There are a million games out there that have leveling mechanics that don't allow you to skip strait to the final level. Both for player skills and player gear.

There is literally nothing new or wrong with having to upgrade an item through the lower levels.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

Or just stop calling them engineered mods, give set costs in credits and mats, so no more rolling. Just plop the payment down and get the module...

Module X, size 3 grade E costs 100 credits
Module X, size 3 grade D costs 200 credits
Module X, size 3 grade C costs 300 credits
Module X, size 3 grade B costs 400 credits
Module X, size 3 grade A costs 500 credits
Module X, size 3 grade 1 costs Y mat
Module X, size 3 grade 2 costs Y mat + Z mat
Module X, size 3 grade 3 costs 3 Y mats + 3 Z mat + 3 W mat
Module X, size 3 grade 4 costs 5 V mats + 5 Z mat + 5 W mat
Module X, size 3 grade 5 costs 9 V mats + 9 Z mat + 9 W mat

Essentially rather than doing any kind of rolling or anything like that, just directly expand from five grades of modules to ten grades of directly purchasable modules. That is actually pretty close to what the 3.0 Engineers does anyway.

 

[lenna]

Or just stop calling them engineered mods, give set costs in credits and mats, so no more rolling. Just plop the payment down and get the module...

Module X, size 3 grade E costs 100 credits
Module X, size 3 grade D costs 200 credits
Module X, size 3 grade C costs 300 credits
Module X, size 3 grade B costs 400 credits
Module X, size 3 grade A costs 500 credits
Module X, size 3 grade 1 costs Y mat
Module X, size 3 grade 2 costs Y mat + Z mat
Module X, size 3 grade 3 costs 3 Y mats + 3 Z mat + 3 W mat
Module X, size 3 grade 4 costs 5 V mats + 5 Z mat + 5 W mat
Module X, size 3 grade 5 costs 9 V mats + 9 Z mat + 9 W mat

Essentially rather than doing any kind of rolling or anything like that, just directly expand from five grades of modules to ten grades of directly purchasable modules. That is actually pretty close to what the 3.0 Engineers does anyway.

Each grade of Engineering is applicable to each module level, not just the Grade A modules like your illustration implies.

An L5 C-grade module will perform better than the stock A-grade and cost a fraction of the price. This is more of a significant factor with the larger vessels where the rebuy can exceed 10 million. In other cases it may make sense to engineer either a D grade or a B grade for (hopefully) obvious reasons. The E-grade modules are probably the only ones which have questionable merit where engineering is concerned IMO.

 

[Dural]

I am new but one impression I have is that the devs would like us to participate in all the activities available which is maybe why materials are scattered about in asteroids, on planets, in USSs of various types with various other criteria determining the type of materials found. So, if this is correct, which there is every change it isn't, I'd be surprised if they just let us buy stuff. Also, there seems to be an element of it all being about the journey not the destination and buying materials doesn't fit that narrative.

 

[Chris Simon]

I am new but one impression I have is that the devs would like us to participate in all the activities available which is maybe why materials are scattered about in asteroids, on planets, in USSs of various types with various other criteria determining the type of materials found. So, if this is correct, which there is every change it isn't, I'd be surprised if they just let us buy stuff. Also, there seems to be an element of it all being about the journey not the destination and buying materials doesn't fit that narrative.

That is absolutely correct.
Unfortunately people want shortcuts. Dunno why. Probably so they can be done with it and go play something else.

 

[Hellakitty]

That is absolutely correct.
Unfortunately people want shortcuts. Dunno why. Probably so they can be done with it and go play something else.

Let me correct that for you:

People want shortcuts so they can be done with it and go have fun playing the rest of the game.

 

[Truesilver]

I am new but one impression I have is that the devs would like us to participate in all the activities available which is maybe why materials are scattered about in asteroids, on planets, in USSs of various types with various other criteria determining the type of materials found.

I understand your point but unfortunately this is a question that dovetails with the repetition aspect.

Let me try to explain ...

I personally, as a dumb pew-pew, actually had no problem with the RNGineer unlocks forcing me to go 5k LY from start (the only time I've been outside the bubble) or to mine the relevant number of tons of ore (the only time I've mined). I thought it reasonable for the Developers to push me into trying things that they have programmed into the game.

But I had to do these things once.

Where I think people justifiably start to want a shortcut is where they are being forced to carry out a completely mindless repetitive task quite literally hundreds if not thousands of times over ... such as flying at slow speed trying to force High Grade Emissions USS to spawn, or sitting stationary next to some NPC ships that are jumping out, scanning their wakes over and over and over again until the game rewards with a very rare 'lootbox' of data.

3.0 has made huge inroads into removing 'the grind' but if you look closely, what people tend still to be complaining about most are these repetitive, unfulfilling loops of non-gameplay that are quite difficult to avoid if you are unlucky enough to be pursuing a chosen upgrade path that demands several of these materials (for literally no reason - lots of other arguably more powerful upgrades, don't).

While I am very much a 3.0 fan, I recognise these choke-points still sometimes exist and cause understandable frustration.

 

[Chris Simon]

3.0 has made huge inroads into removing 'the grind' but if you look closely, what people tend still to be complaining about most are these repetitive, unfulfilling loops of non-gameplay that are quite difficult to avoid if you are unlucky enough to be pursuing a chosen upgrade path that demands several of these materials (for literally no reason - lots of other arguably more powerful upgrades, don't)..

...and therein lies the problem. You, as a "dumb pew-pew" may not see that, but what you call "loops of non-gameplay" (namely, doing missions, driving an SRV, flying through space and visiting various parts of the system,...) makes 100% of gameplay for some people (well, me).
For me, having to fight a player trying to "oppose" a CG is a non-gameplay.

See? Points of view.

 

[Dural]

I guess if you have had to go out collecting materials many times it probably does get old. Not suffered from that yet myself.

OK, so maybe they could fix this for people who want not to have to go looking for stuff time after time by creating a distress call scanner which could sit on utility slot and pick up calls from crashed materials trading ships so people could go and collect loads of stuff at once. It would be like a mini mission, you'd have to commit to carrying a module for this purpose and an SRV. Ships carrying rare materials could have NPC enemy ships you need to fight off. Materials aren't cash commodities but are still accessible in reasonable quantities. Or something like that anyway.

 

[Hellakitty]

...and therein lies the problem. You, as a "dumb pew-pew" may not see that, but what you call "loops of non-gameplay" (namely, doing missions, driving an SRV, flying through space and visiting various parts of the system,...) makes 100% of gameplay for some people (well, me).
For me, having to fight a player trying to "oppose" a CG is a non-gameplay.

See? Points of view.

Thing is though Chris, you can easily ignore the bits of the game you don't want to do. For others, they're forced to do them, they have no choice.

 

[Chris Simon]

I guess if you have had to go out collecting materials many times it probably does get old. Not suffered from that yet myself.

OK, so maybe they could fix this for people who want not to have to go looking for stuff time after time by creating a distress call scanner which could sit on utility slot and pick up calls from crashed materials trading ships so people could go and collect loads of stuff at once. It would be like a mini mission, you'd have to commit to carrying a module for this purpose and an SRV. Ships carrying rare materials could have NPC enemy ships you need to fight off. Materials aren't cash commodities but are still accessible in reasonable quantities. Or something like that anyway.

Or they could just add some kind of trader who would trade materials you get by doing combat for those you currently need.

 

[Truesilver]

Where I think people justifiably start to want a shortcut is where they are being forced to carry out a completely mindless repetitive task quite literally hundreds if not thousands of times over ... such as flying at slow speed trying to force High Grade Emissions USS to spawn, or sitting stationary next to some NPC ships that are jumping out, scanning their wakes over and over and over again until the game rewards with a very rare 'lootbox' of data.

3.0 has made huge inroads into removing 'the grind' but if you look closely, what people tend still to be complaining about most are these repetitive, unfulfilling loops of non-gameplay that are quite difficult to avoid if you are unlucky enough to be pursuing a chosen upgrade path that demands several of these materials (for literally no reason - lots of other arguably more powerful upgrades, don't).

While I am very much a 3.0 fan, I recognise these choke-points still sometimes exist and cause understandable frustration.

...and therein lies the problem. You, as a "dumb pew-pew" may not see that, but what you call "loops of non-gameplay" (namely, doing missions, driving an SRV, flying through space and visiting various parts of the system,...) makes 100% of gameplay for some people (well, me).

How much do we disagree, though? I didn't identify non-combat in general, I identified two activities in particular (HGE USS and Wake Scanning) which in turn are associated with a few of the remaining choke-point ToR ('Top of Row') mats. Each to their own, but do many really enjoy these two activities?

Or they could just add some kind of trader who would trade materials you get by doing combat for those you currently need.

Unfortunately this is @Hellakitty's and @RedAnders and others' point.

Because the only way to trade for a ToR mat is (at best) 6-1 it's actually quite difficult to achieve the few choke-point mats via trading.

If someone wants to max out 5 x g5 modules requiring these mats, they need to put aside 50 of these mats to do it.

That means they'd need (at best) to trade 300 other very rare g5 mats for them - quite an undertaking.

The point here is that these mats are anomalous. I actually didn't have any problems making my first fully hard-ceiling PvP ship, but that's because luckily for me, it needed hardly any of these mats for my particular spec.

I pity those in a less fortunate position ... and hope that Frontier clear up these anomalies soon.

To be clear:

(A) Imho 3.0 is really good
(B) Most ToR g5 mats are pleasantly easy to acquire
(C) However some remain very rare
(D) And some of those require a mindless repetitive task to be completed - no way to avoid it - until the lootbox appears
(E) The Mats Trader is great for many things but not for items meeting criteria (D)+(E) above due to the 6-1 rate applying (at best) to very rare for very rare ToR trades

 

[Dural]

Or they could just add some kind of trader who would trade materials you get by doing combat for those you currently need.

Which would be a lot easier to do than creating a distress call module. Create a materials shopping list and get a killing stuff mission of appropriate difficulty.