Something to think about AI in 2.1.

InlineSix

InlineSix
There's a lot of whining going on about the actual A.I. being too harsh.

I was of the same opinion after 2.1.'s release, but after some playtime and the nerf I may tell you about my observations:

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- I am a mediocre pilot with an elite combat rank and quite some PvP experience although I would never call me a hero or an in game expert.
- I have personally been flying all kinds of ships since 2.1. went live.

Conclusion:

By activating your brain, you won't get killed in anything better than a hauler. Even a sidewinder. Mostly.

I haven't been killed except in an unarmed hauler. I had a few close calls in sidewinders, but survived. Fun. Not frustration.

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- I have a second account which I reset to zero.
- Starting anew in this second account, I had a lot of real fluffy AI opponents. Nothing to worry about.

Conclusion:

The game is WAY easier for the lower ranks than it is for the higher ranks.

Non-Conclusion:

This doesn't say anything about how newbies survive.

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- Nurturing newbies since release, I - again - spent a lot of playtime to help new cmdrs.

- Tought them about power distribution, having a healthy fear of noses (of larger ships...) and about evasion after being interdicted

Conclusion:

From about a dozen REAL newbies and a handful of players between mostly harmless and master rank, NOT A SINGLE ONE COMPLAINED ABOUT A.I.

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Here comes the META:

- AI is not AD anymore. (* artificial dumbness)

- Suffering from new-AI-syndrome is only one group: medium to high ranked NPC heroes of past times. The ones who request their NPC enemy to be presented on a silver platter. News for you: You're dead meat, sorry.

- There is NO problem with A.I. - there's a problem with stubborness. Hey, Newbies don't complain, why do you "experienced" but "casual" players who are so "good at fighting" and "know all tricks"?

PLEASE CONSIDER:

- Ask someone who knows how to fight to tell you about the basics. ONE SINGLE HOUR of combat training is sufficient for a whole new level of destruction you GIVE not TAKE.

It's all about Power Distributor, Shields, Agility, Boost, Boost + Vector, FA Off dancing.

This is a game in progress. The old AI was PLAIN BORING for everyone willing to learn or just being mediocre at fighting. How about spending the time you need for all the complaints on some TRAINING?

Seriously: Reading cmdrs who complain that their expensive Anaconda must not be killed by a cheap Cobra is strange. Reading cmdrs who claim an ASP must outperfrom a Cobra gives me goose bumps. Reading cmdrs they can't outmanouevre a Python flying a Vulture makes me sigh.

Put away the salt. First: READ. Then: TRY to understand. Then: Answer if you really got a point to negate or discuss what I'm saying. I am under the impression that there's a huge fraction of plush armchair pilots who just want to get entertained by Elite : WellnessInAllForms.
 
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Kulgrinda Kosmarjus

K
I have been reading the forum quite actively for the past several days and I have to agree with you 100%.

There are things FD could do to make adaptation of the spoiled people easier though (and to maintain a high number of people playing ED) - like mandatory training on how to survive (high waking, pips, what to do, when to do).

And this must be outlined again - more expensive ship doesn't mean happiness or instawin. it usually means higher risk, better rewards. but if you're dying in an asp, why get an anaconda?

Does deeper training mean "git gud"? Why bother at all if reading a bit about such complicated game gets responded with "       off all git gud advise, lemme play the way i want it, i want candies for breakfast waaaaa".
 

DaveB

DaveB
Most of what you say, makes perfect sense to me. The only part of it I have direct personal experience with is the first part, because I neither have a second account nor reset the one I do have post-update, and my experience parallels yours quite a bit.

Most of the time, I fly a multi-role fitted 'conda. This is because I'm not a grinder in a perticular play-style, I usually log in, undock, get out into open space and THEN decide what I'm going to do with my play time and where I'm going to go in that play session. Plus I just enjoy flying the big snake :) Post-update surviving my usual play style(s) in that ship is much more of a challenge and I like that. Now that FD have rolled a few fixes to the more egregious bugs it's no longer an expensive coffin and I can adapt my flying (and fighting) style to the new environment, although I still need to make a few loadout tweaks but that's an ongoing process. However, what this means is that since I don't fly a "specialized" build most of the time, I'm probably one of the players who has experienced the greatest impact to my play style from the changes. That being the case I don't find it insurmountable (post bug-fixes, before it was quite the sphincter-puckering experience) and I'm certainly no kind of ace combat pilot.. So either I managed to "git gud (enough)" without noticing or the current state is something that the majority of players should be able to adapt to.

(I have a combat-fitted vulture in mothballs somewhere, I haven't tried it in the post-update world yet but I'm sure I will blow the dust off it, update its loadout and take it for a spin eventually. It's a pure combat build, no cargo capacity at all, so if I'm going to play with it I will still need the other ships to finance its running costs)
 

matthewpowers

M
I agree with the OP

I'm 40+ years old. Little more then Casual player. I'm no billionair. Around 200 million in assets since my new save. I do play Iron man style. But i have as much fun in an adder,, as I have in A rated python.

And I never had more fun with this game since 2.1. Yesterday i had an epic fight with an elite ranked NPC Adder(!). He "shaved " my python many times during the fight. Great sound btw :p. I never even had so much fun with a real human commander. I think I could have killed him, but I do play Iron man style, so, i didn't want to take too much risk. So, after a while, where we both had damage, I "ran away".

I have not been killed since 2.1. With all my ships. : adder, cobra, python, and imperial eagle.


I think the problem is really that the player base is brought up with very dumb AI. Let's face it, AI was nothing before 2.1. Even the casual player, owning a FAS/python/FDL could destroy any elite NPC, with whatever ship, within 30-45 seconds. That's no opponent.

Like the OP said, there is no reason to be killed by AI, if you don't want to fight. The simple tactic of submit, boost and high wake still works for everyone. That is if you have some decent shields on your ship.

Going back to dumb AI would be terrible for the regular players. Because it would be like before. A game without any fear, and shooting fish in a bowl. Boring as hell.

Maybe an option for those who wanna trade in peace, would be to create a small highly protected area somewhere within the bubble where those players can trade, while listening to some music, and never get attacked.

But I really do not hope we get that dumb AI back.
 
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ShimEnki

ShimEnki
matthewpowers said:
I agree with the OP

I'm 40+ years old. Little more then Casual player. I'm no billionair. Around 200 million in assets since my new save. I do play Iron man style. But i have as much fun in an adder,, as I have in A rated python.

And I never had more fun with this game since 2.1. Yesterday i had an epic fight with an elite ranked NPC Adder(!). He "shaved " my python many times during the fight. Great sound btw :p. I never even had so much fun with a real human commander. I think I could have killed him, but I do play Iron man style, so, i didn't want to take too much risk. So I "ran away".

I have not been killed since 2.1. With all my ships. : adder, cobra, python, and imperial eagle.


I think the problem is really that the player base is brought up with very dumb AI. Let's face it, AI was nothing before 2.1. Even the casual player, owning a FAS/python/FDL could destroy any elite NPC, with whatever ship, within 30-45 seconds. That's no opponent.

Like the OP said, there is no reason to be killed by AI, if you don't want to fight. The simple tactic of submit, boost and high wake still works for everyone. That is if you have some decent shields on your ship.

Going back to dumb AI would be terrible for the regular players. Because it would be like before. A game without any fear, and shooting fish in a bowl. Boring as hell.

Maybe an option for those who wanna trade in peace, would be to create a small highly protected area somewhere within the bubble where those players can trade, while listening to some music, and never get attacked.

But I really hope we get that dumb AI back.
Click to expand...

How about a small highly unprotected area for those that enjoy playing hide and seek and playing im the victim?

Cheating Ai is just another wreckless overeactive coding response after handing NPCs modded weapons instead of merely correcting 2.0 AI that had most NPCs flying half if not fully asleep.
 

matthewpowers

M
@ShimEnki
I have no idea what you mean by "cheating"AI.

I have been interdicted many times by AI. Simply because I play as a pirate, and I am wanted in lots of places, and always carry soime value stuff. I also fought many AI. And I never felt that AI was cheating on me. I mostly won, and sometimes I got my butt kicked. Those times I got muy butt kicked, It was either my fault, or they where simply too good for me. But I could always run away before they could even destroy my ship.

I have no problem with higher ranked AI that is better then me. It gives me a goal to work for. To become better then them. With the dumb AI there would not be such a goal.

With that suggestion of yours you are over reacting and you are turning the tables. A small group of people that have problems with AI should not spoil the game for the majority of the player base.

I'm 40+!!! casual player. And you say that even some 40+ guy, like me, that probably is much slower and less adaptable then a 20 year old, Is now a top player in this game???? I should be bottom league really.

I
 
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Alpha087

Alpha087
InlineSix said:
Here comes the META:

- AI is not AD anymore. (* artificial dumbness)

- Suffering from new-AI-syndrome is only one group: medium to high ranked NPC heroes of past times. The ones who request their NPC enemy to be presented on a silver platter. News for you: You're dead meat, sorry.

- There is NO problem with A.I. - there's a problem with stubborness. Hey, Newbies don't complain, why do you "experienced" but "casual" players who are so "good at fighting" and "know all tricks"?
Click to expand...

Load up beam turrets and mine launchers in a Corvette or maybe even a 'Conda, fly in a straight line and then reconsider these statements. The AI are still pretty dumb and still have 0 variation in their tactics.
 
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DaveB

DaveB
ShimEnki said:
How about a small highly unprotected area for those that enjoy playing hide and seek and playing im the victim?

Cheating Ai is just another wreckless overeactive coding response after handing NPCs modded weapons instead of merely correcting 2.0 AI that had most NPCs flying half if not fully asleep.
Click to expand...

How, in your opinion, do the AI cheat? Are you talking about the one way in which they they are intended to depart from player capabilities (do not expend MC ammo - this is to prevent adverse consequences from other parts of their code) or some other thing? IF it is some other thing, have you reported it as a bug? Because that's what it is.
 

Odan Brota

Odan Brota
Alpha087 said:
Load up beam turrets and mine launchers in a Corvette or maybe even a 'Conda, fly in a straight line and then reconsider these statements. The AI are still pretty dumb and still have 0 variation in their tactics.
Click to expand...

This. If you're in a large ship, use turrets. The AI will keep trying to get on your six, but your turrets will happily blast them to pieces.
 

Mark Lock

M
I fully agree with OP, AIs are perfect now, also reading the threads whiners wrote I found out most of them are flying stock ships with default modules , that's why they get kicked, people keep buying the biggest possible ships while not having the knowledge about the game to gear and use them right, they used to farm npcs in 2.0 and think they can still play with the same mindset, so they get their Python trashed by any decent npc in a Cobra, that's obvious those players are to blame and not the new AIs
 
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