SRV and VR - Lock Operator View to Horizon - CRITICALLY NEEDED

[Derek Speare [VR]]

Hello Frontier, et al:

VR introduces elements to gameplay which are not encountered with regular screen gaming. As a long time VR user with Elite Dangerous (and other games), I can say that it's one of the best experiences you can have - I really love it! However, there is one aspect of ED and VR which needs attention. That area is with planetary SRV operations.

The issue is that using the SVR on a planet - driving around - can cause some VR users discomfort and VR induced disorientation due to the way the point of view from the cockpit of the vehicle is rendered. What we have now is a VR point of view which is locked forward, and despite the fact that VR use gives the operator full control over his view direction, and movement over the terrain in the SRV disrupts that view, making "bouncy" or jittery. Since the view is locked forward, some users will become disoriented.

The solution is to give the user the option to lock the SVR point of view to the horizon. Doing that will mean that the user's VR view will not be interrupted or bounced around as the SRV is driven over terrain. If the option is implemented properly, a scale factor would be applied from 0 to 100%, where locked is 100% control. Think of the VR view to be on a gimbal/gyro stabilizer.

VR view locked to horizon is not a new concept. Where it's used, and used properly, is with racing games. iRacing, project Cars, Live for Speed and Assetto Corsa have options to allow the the VR user to lock his view to the horizon to prevent VR induced disorientation; all have scale factors as well. Since the SRV is another driving simulation, it would be prudent to take a proven and popular solution from other driving games that have been doing VR successfully for a couple of years now.

Of course, some folks may not want this or care about, and that's their business. However, I am certain that many ED VR users would benefit from this and enjoy the ability to have more rewarding SRV missions and explorations. The solution is a proven one. I encourage FD to implement it.

Thank you!

Derek "BoxxMann" Speare
Founder and CEO, Derek Speare Designs
http://www.derekspearedesigns.com

NB - I originally posted this to the suggestions forum, but since this is really a VR matter, it's better posted here.

 

[rennarda]

Check the settings. It's already there.

Unfortunately it applies globally to both ships and SRVs - what we really need is the SRV to have it's own setting.

 

[mp4x]

Yerp, never used it myself but the option is already there.

 

[drkaii]

Check the settings. It's already there.

Unfortunately it applies globally to both ships and SRVs - what we really need is the SRV to have it's own setting.

It doesn't apply to ships anymore

 

[Derek Speare [VR]]

This recommendation is specifically aimed at SRV OPERATIONS. There is no need for lock to horizon in the ships as there is no horizon onto which it would lock. If this specific feature is there, someone kindly post precisely where to find it. I am still new to EDH. Thank you. If it is not there, then the need for it is self evident.

 

[mp4x]

Yup, as everyone said. It is there. You don't need to request it again, in reply to the people telling you it already exists in your options...

"maintain horizon camera"

This recommendation is specifically aimed at SRV OPERATIONS. There is no need for lock to horizon in the ships as there is no horizon onto which it would lock. If this specific feature is there, someone kindly post precisely where to find it. I am still new to EDH. Thank you. If it is not there, then the need for it is self evident.

 

[Derek Speare [VR]]

Yes, it is there, as I have discovered with the help from those here, so thanks to you folks . HOWEVER, and this is a big however, The locked camera does not move like a human's eyes in that our eyes are fairly stable, most head movements keeping our vision stable and steady. We have limits to this, and you can see the unrealistic motion with the horizon camera lock by taking your SRV out and doing a barrel roll in it. Your view is locked and the SRV spins around you. I don't really care for that.

To reiterate: I am referencing this ONLY for VR use. The lock-to-horizon option can be done better in ED. Yes, it is BETTER than not having it at all, but there are some improvements they can make. One would be to have limits to the stability for instances where the driver's head would be moved inverted (like with a barrel roll), and the departure from the lock would be gradual with the departure proportional to the amount the driver's in game head would be moved away from its limits. The other improvement would be to make the lock-to-horizon effect on a sliding scale from 0 to 100; zero would be fully OFF and 100 would be fully ON. Each VR user will want to fine tune the amount of lock so that he or she can achieve the desired stability.

Like I mentioned in my OP, this is a very mature feature used in all sim racing titles using VR. There we have it and also full control over it. Since a proven method exists to prevent VR induced discomfort, it's important that FD implement it.

Thanks again to those who pointed me in a better direction for enabling what we have here!

**back to hauling biowaste**

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

"Maintain Horizon Camera" does exactly that.

I understand the effect you are looking for though - where you would be able to compensate with your head for small tilts, then decouple the SRV cockpit if it gets too great. At the moment its an all-or nothing setting.
However, the most realistic setting is to keep the camera always relative to the SRV (ie Maintain Horizon Camera is off).

Do you suffer vertigo/nausea etc in the SRV? If so, drive the SRV in small doses, drive slowly, and accumulate experience... and any discomfort will slowly disappear. The SRV is the most intense VR sensation in the game (or anywhere in VR I've found). The ground around the SRV is the main reference for your head, so looking around a lot tends to make discomfort worse, especially while moving.

Also, driving the SRV also tends to be the heaviest load on the PC - and a drop in raw frame rate/reliance on ATW/ASW can increase the amount of discomfort. It pays to reduce settings a bit when on-planet for long periods.

 

[Skooter]

the most realistic setting is to keep the camera always relative to the SRV (ie Maintain Horizon Camera is off).

This is false. I'm an avid sim racer so I'm very familiar with the concept of lock-to-horizon vs. lock-to-vehicle.

The easiest way to demonstrate this is to look across your yard or street and focus on something (a house, a car, etc.). Now, tilt your head up and down like you're nodding "yes." Also, tilt it side to side. Did it look like the whole world was rapidly moving up and down or tilting side-to-side? Or did objects appear to stay stationary and only your head was moving?

Your neck, eyes, equilibrium, and brain all work in unison to keep the horizon level in your perception. If you hit a speed bump in a car, you don't perceive the horizon as dropping out when the front of the car pitches up. Instead you perceive the car as pitching up and the horizon staying stable. This is why the Maintain Horizon setting is the most realistic for VR. It more closely represents real-life experience.

Now, if you take it to extremes, then you start to get different sensations. For example, I've been in a car going almost 200 mph at Daytona International Speedway which has very steep banking. The g-forces fool your equilibrium and you end up perceiving a tilted horizon. I'm sure the same would be true if you were in a car wreck and rolled it.


As for reducing motion sickness:
In games and simulators (non-motion simulators) your in-game body is being tossed around, but your real body is sitting still. So your eyes sense movement but your equilibrium doesn't. This conflicting information causes motion sickness in some people. It's also why people tend to get car sickness worse if they're a passenger who is reading a book versus a driver who is looking at the road, and why Navy veterans know to look at the horizon to minimize sea sickness (*doesn't work for us submariners though.)

This isn't normally a problem when gaming on a screen because your peripheral vision keeps you "grounded" even though things are moving around on the screen. But in VR where your entire field of vision is taken up you no longer have that visual "grounding" so motion sickness comes easier.

 

[Derek Speare [VR]]

As skooter has stated, our eyes are stable despite our head being jostled about in real life. Wonderful, this nature is!

We take lock to horizon for granted in sim racing for VR use. MANY folks implement this feature to make their VR driving/racing more enjoyable.

I have been using VR with racing and flight sims since the DK2 and am very accustomed to it, not getting disorientation at all. iRacing and DCS are my main ones, and yes, as RedRaven recognized, good frame rates help as well.

I have good VR performance on my PC, fortunately, locking the camera has helped with the SRV. The feature can be improved, and while a subtle matter it is, if properly tuned and enhanced, it would be something we'd never even notice. Why? Because if it acts like our eyes do naturally, then it's done right. And if our brain thinks it's normal, it says it's ok!

Cheers!

Derek Speare

 

[vic]

As skooter has stated, our eyes are stable despite our head being jostled about in real life. Wonderful, this nature is!

We take lock to horizon for granted in sim racing for VR use. MANY folks implement this feature to make their VR driving/racing more enjoyable.

I have been using VR with racing and flight sims since the DK2 and am very accustomed to it, not getting disorientation at all. iRacing and DCS are my main ones, and yes, as RedRaven recognized, good frame rates help as well.

I have good VR performance on my PC, fortunately, locking the camera has helped with the SRV. The feature can be improved, and while a subtle matter it is, if properly tuned and enhanced, it would be something we'd never even notice. Why? Because if it acts like our eyes do naturally, then it's done right. And if our brain thinks it's normal, it says it's ok!

Cheers!

Derek Speare

I agree the SRV lock horizon camera needs some fine tuning!

 

[CMDR Reaper]

Just tried the lock horizon feature and WOW - this is much better. You get a much better sense of what is up and down. Normally when you drive in the SRV it can be hard to figure out if you are going up/down of a hill, but not if you turn this on. It feels more natural IMO.

I don't understand why this isn't the default setting.

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

This is false. I'm an avid sim racer so I'm very familiar with the concept of lock-to-horizon vs. lock-to-vehicle.

The easiest way to demonstrate this is to look across your yard or street and focus on something (a house, a car, etc.). Now, tilt your head up and down like you're nodding "yes." Also, tilt it side to side. Did it look like the whole world was rapidly moving up and down or tilting side-to-side? Or did objects appear to stay stationary and only your head was moving?

Your neck, eyes, equilibrium, and brain all work in unison to keep the horizon level in your perception. If you hit a speed bump in a car, you don't perceive the horizon as dropping out when the front of the car pitches up. Instead you perceive the car as pitching up and the horizon staying stable. This is why the Maintain Horizon setting is the most realistic for VR. It more closely represents real-life experience.

Interesting, your experience varies from mine. That's cool. I prefer the horizon lock disabled as I do tilt my head and move my neck in response to the horizon shifts. I don't have any issues knowing which way is down.

I have a fair amount of track time in my Lotus7 replica clubman-class car so I'm more than familiar with the aspect of banked corners (although at 200km/hr, not 200mph), and although lateral-g's etc isn't something we'll ever experience in VR, I see why the lock to horizon would be useful for some.

But for me, if I get wildly out of shape on a low-g moon, and my SRV flips upside-down, having horizon lock on will not give you the viewpoint you would get if you were sitting in the seat. You can't lock the horizon in real life, and you're strapped into the SRV pretty tight (Remlok suit and all).

 

[Skooter]

if I get wildly out of shape on a low-g moon, and my SRV flips upside-down, having horizon lock on will not give you the viewpoint you would get if you were sitting in the seat. You can't lock the horizon in real life, and you're strapped into the SRV pretty tight (Remlok suit and all).

I agree that when it gets to extremes (like flipping) then a locked horizon is no longer realistic. That's why I like the way iRacing does it: The horizon lock is adjustable, but always has limits. Allow me to explain.

The setting is in a .ini file called "DriverHeadHorizon=x"
If you set x=0, then your view is locked to the car's chassis. The car around you always remains stationary and the world bucks and pitches as you go over bumps or around banked turns. This is the "unrealistic" option from my point of view.

If you set x=1, then the horizon stays perfectly horizontal UNLESS the car tips past a certin point (30°, if I recall correctly.) This view is more realistic to me because it more closely resembles real-life experience.

You can also set x=0.5 or any fraction you like. It's like a scale, but there's always that limit beyond which the horizon does tilt regardless of your setting (i.e. rolling the car.).


I think that this is the type of setting control that people are asking for. Right now, the choices are equivalent to iRacing's DriverHeadHorizon=0 or DriverHeadHorizon=1. We don't get anything in between in ED. It's all or nothing. Plus, if you lock the horizon in ED, you get that strange effect when you roll the vehicle where it looks like the vehicle does a loop over your head because there's no limitation to the horizon lock like there is in iRacing.

Ultimately, it comes down to the user's preference because it's futile to claim that any setting is the "only right answer" because clearly different people have different preferences. That's why the ideal solution is to give everyone the option to choose.

 

[Anon Sin]

LoL... #First World Problems. o7

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

I agree that when it gets to extremes (like flipping) then a locked horizon is no longer realistic. That's why I like the way iRacing does it: The horizon lock is adjustable, but always has limits. Allow me to explain.

The setting is in a .ini file called "DriverHeadHorizon=x"
If you set x=0, then your view is locked to the car's chassis. The car around you always remains stationary and the world bucks and pitches as you go over bumps or around banked turns. This is the "unrealistic" option from my point of view.

If you set x=1, then the horizon stays perfectly horizontal UNLESS the car tips past a certin point (30°, if I recall correctly.) This view is more realistic to me because it more closely resembles real-life experience.

You can also set x=0.5 or any fraction you like. It's like a scale, but there's always that limit beyond which the horizon does tilt regardless of your setting (i.e. rolling the car.).


I think that this is the type of setting control that people are asking for. Right now, the choices are equivalent to iRacing's DriverHeadHorizon=0 or DriverHeadHorizon=1. We don't get anything in between in ED. It's all or nothing. Plus, if you lock the horizon in ED, you get that strange effect when you roll the vehicle where it looks like the vehicle does a loop over your head because there's no limitation to the horizon lock like there is in iRacing.

Ultimately, it comes down to the user's preference because it's futile to claim that any setting is the "only right answer" because clearly different people have different preferences. That's why the ideal solution is to give everyone the option to choose.

Absolutely agree - thanks for explaining the iRacing setting. Definitely looks like a range of settings is needed, and control given to the player.

I guess we can be thankful the SRV's articulated wheels take all the small bumps out of the ride... otherwise yeah, you're right everything would be tossing about every time you touched a new polygon. Maybe that's why the SRV cockpit resembles a washing machine?

 

[Derek Speare [VR]]

This is code taken directly from iRacing's app.INI file. These elements control the head movement in the car:

DriverHeadHorizon=0.900000 ; Percent to allow the drivers head to stay level with the horizon when the car tilts.
DriverHeadNoPitch=0.900000 ; Percent to allow the drivers head to stay level with the horizon when the car pitches.
DriverHeadWobble=0.000000 ; Percent to allow the drivers head to wobble when going over bumps.

 

[shadragon]

Go into Turret view and I think you'll find the effect you are looking for.

There are three anti-nausea settings under SRV controls. Not in front of my game machine, but they are there.

 

[Derek Speare [VR]]

It's not all that easy to drive from the turret, but it is more stable - if they would do that, or something similar inside the SRV it would be cool

 

[mp4x]

I tried the ‘lock horizon’ option yesterday, for the first time, and found that it was a little uncomfortable for me. I presume that's because I have always used the SRV without it and so I've trained myself/brain to use the regular view. I can see the benefits but, as said above, when I [frequently] rolled over I felt the horizon lock should have disengaged...