Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

I hope you're not suggesting that i'm claiming "victim hood" as far as i'm aware i have given you no reason to imprint something like that on me, how you feel about the project is of no consequence to me, and i have not the slightest desire to even attempt to change your mind, that's not why i'm here.
I cant help if you feel adressed but no...I wasnt accusing you of doing it. The fact stands that a lot of people who provided those exact same arguments you did claimed to be "ganged up on" and played the victim when their points were ripped apart by facts. AgonyAunt already provided a nice summary of our findings to your points. Its worth the read if you havent done so already.

You already have demonstrated a very particular attitude or stance in regards to this thread by your choice of words. I dont think "i dont really care" is a good (or believable) reflection in the face of what you write. I wasnt assuming you tried to change anybodies mind because you started out with asking for peoples opinion. Cant help it that you divert to excuses, apologies and justifications on behalf of CiG....cant blame any of us for making you do it.

I mean if you are here to simply find out how people feel or think about Star Citizen you already got some great replies dont you?
 
I cant help if you feel adressed but no...I wasnt accusing you of doing it. The fact stands that a lot of people who provided those exact same arguments you did claimed to be "ganged up on" and played the victim when their points were ripped apart by facts. AgonyAunt already provided a nice summary of our findings to your points. Its worth the read if you havent done so already.

You already have demonstrated a very particular attitude or stance in regards to this thread by your choice of words. I dont think "i dont really care" is a good (or believable) reflection in the face of what you write. I wasnt assuming you tried to change anybodies mind because you started out with asking for peoples opinion. Cant help it that you divert to excuses, apologies and justifications on behalf of CiG....cant blame any of us for making you do it.

I mean if you are here to simply find out how people feel or think about Star Citizen you already got some great replies dont you?

Maybe you spent so much time "ripping peoples points apart" you're reading far to much into anything i say? Why would i care about any attitude you hold toward SC? Its of no consequence to me, is it of consequence to you if i don't share your views?
 
Maybe you spent so much time "ripping peoples points apart" you're reading far to much into anything i say? Why would i care about any attitude you hold toward SC? Its of no consequence to me, is it of consequence to you if i don't share your views?
Well obviously I am a veteran in this thread while you are a newbie (based on how long I m active here compared to you) so its not surprising that most of your arguments and points so far are old news to me as well as their conclusions (even tho they are probably news to you if you care to read up on them).

You might not recognize it but labeling everybody else who replies to you as "one of you" signals a clear distancing on your part like we are not on your level, your opponents or a perceived side when you cant reall know especally as the people who replied to you so far are a small percentage of thread posters so generalizing all of us as "one of you" even tho you are "one of us" the moment you post in here smells fishy. Like....why are we different? Because we dont drink the kewl aid or simply believe what somebody claims?

I like to think that my posts hold insight, truth or value. Ripping peoples points apart is not my objective but of course, that can happen. In this thread, a lot of points and arguments have been ripped apart over time....often by CiG itself which continues to provide the best evidenje for Star Citizen and its state. Your summary of the development-affecting community polls just demonstrate your blind spot or show how uninformed you are in this regard. The numbers AgonyAunt came up with have been deducted in hindsight by people who made the effort to go through the numbers. Past posts have provided the details that make me accept them as facts based on linked sources and logical conclusion (also a matter of basic math)

Being a "Star Citizen hater" isnt really a choice or profession. I would love to love Star Citizen but I simply cannot when I care to apply the same measurement of quality and expectation I have for every other game on the market. I try to be consistent and fair in how I judge Star Citizen. Lying to your playerbase and claiming things that never happen on a constant basis are not things I excuse in any other game so CiG is not getting away with it either...regardless of how "nice" Star Citizen looks.

I mean.....YOU wanted to know what people here think about Star Citizen. Its a little strange when you act as if you dont like the answers. I mean if you have any special insight or arguments that could change my or others perception please share (if you care...you said you dont....) but so far I ve listened to you ("read" more like) and cant see anything new or valuable that could change my view on it. If thats okay with you than thats that....
 
Well obviously I am a veteran in this thread while you are a newbie (based on how long I m active here compared to you) so its not surprising that most of your arguments and points so far are old news to me as well as their conclusions (even tho they are probably news to you if you care to read up on them).

You might not recognize it but labeling everybody else who replies to you as "one of you" signals a clear distancing on your part like we are not on your level, your opponents or a perceived side when you cant reall know especally as the people who replied to you so far are a small percentage of thread posters so generalizing all of us as "one of you" even tho you are "one of us" the moment you post in here smells fishy. Like....why are we different? Because we dont drink the kewl aid or simply believe what somebody claims?

I like to think that my posts hold insight, truth or value. Ripping peoples points apart is not my objective but of course, that can happen. In this thread, a lot of points and arguments have been ripped apart over time....often by CiG itself which continues to provide the best evidenje for Star Citizen and its state. Your summary of the development-affecting community polls just demonstrate your blind spot or show how uninformed you are in this regard. The numbers AgonyAunt came up with have been deducted in hindsight by people who made the effort to go through the numbers. Past posts have provided the details that make me accept them as facts based on linked sources and logical conclusion (also a matter of basic math)

Being a "Star Citizen hater" isnt really a choice or profession. I would love to love Star Citizen but I simply cannot when I care to apply the same measurement of quality and expectation I have for every other game on the market. I try to be consistent and fair in how I judge Star Citizen. Lying to your playerbase and claiming things that never happen on a constant basis are not things I excuse in any other game so CiG is not getting away with it either...regardless of how "nice" Star Citizen looks.

I mean.....YOU wanted to know what people here think about Star Citizen. Its a little strange when you act as if you dont like the answers. I mean if you have any special insight or arguments that could change my or others perception please share (if you care...you said you dont....) but so far I ve listened to you ("read" more like) and cant see anything new or valuable that could change my view on it. If thats okay with you than thats that....
You might like to go back and read post #21,423, Ronzer suggested that in another two years i might become wary of SC and stop putting my own money in, and then i would be one of you. i told him i had already got to that stage so i was already one of you, it was nothing more than a friendly exchange between me and Ronzer, which he appreciated. as did i.

I did ask, so to speak, and i appreciate your input, for which i think i have already thanked you? I'm not interested in the politics you may have had with others about this, i'm not those others, its nothing to do with me.
 
It is a fun one.

There is no game.

Hmmm, i played it everyday last week.
This is a tough area (for me) to parse.

If there is a game, then can it be subject to official reviews as it stands, with the caveat that there is more to come?

Or is it a project in an alpha/pre-alpha state, and therefore immune to criticism?

These aren't rhetorical questions, because I've seen more fervent backers insist it's playable until criticism is lobbed at SC, in which case the (almost meme-ish) defensive stance is, "It's an alpha!" Yet, I can't see how the cat is both alive and dead at the same time once the box is opened.

RSI states it's a playable alpha, but does that constitute an actual game, or something akin to what Shroud of the Avatar was until Garriott called it a day and bailed on his project?
 
This is a tough area (for me) to parse.

If there is a game, then can it be subject to official reviews as it stands, with the caveat that there is more to come?

Or is it a project in an alpha/pre-alpha state, and therefore immune to criticism?

These aren't rhetorical questions, because I've seen more fervent backers insist it's playable until criticism is lobbed at SC, in which case the (almost meme-ish) defensive stance is, "It's an alpha!" Yet, I can't see how the cat is both alive and dead at the same time once the box is opened.

RSI states it's a playable alpha, but does that constitute an actual game, or something akin to what Shroud of the Avatar was until Garriott called it a day and bailed on his project?

Its what those who play it make of it, we are not a Borg Collective.
 
Its what those who play it make of it, we are not a Borg Collective.
I was asking in broader terms. I understand each backer brings their own imagination to what the project currently is, and how it might turn out. That's partially what drives the funding. Some imagine farming on a MISC Endeavor. Others want to be intrepid journalists piloting a Reliant Mako. And I'm sure there are backers who want to host lavish parties and direct staff (be it AI NPCs or other players) on their 890s.

Those various desires are why, in my own opinion, Star Citizen will never live up to the hype it's generated among fans, and the open-ended dreams it's fed into without limiting those expectations from the start.

My question is from a stance of industry standards. Is it a game? Is it an alpha? Is it a tech demo?
 
Last edited:
I was asking in broader terms. I understand each backer brings their own imagination to what the project currently is, and how it might turn out. That's partially what drives the funding. Some imagine farming on a MISC Endeavor. Others want to be intrepid journalists piloting a Reliant Mako. And I'm sure there are backers who want to host lavish parties and direct staff (be it AI or other players) on their 890s.

Those various desires are why, in my own opinion, why Star Citizen will never live up to the hype it's generated among fans, and the open-ended dreams it's fed into without limiting those expectations from the start.

My question is from a stance of industry standards. Is it a game? Is it an alpha? Is it a tech demo?

Yea, that's a very good point, cynical marketing aside the game also has its own momentum driven by its fans, it keeps going year after year after year, there has to be more too it than just that, with all the years its been going on and with all the press about it that's out there you would think it would fizzle out. no, and no signs of it slowing.
That may suggest that a significant number of people are getting what they want from it. people clearly like this game enough, or whatever it is, to me its a game, one that has problems, i know people who play SC, a lot, also own this game and don't like it, i do.
 
Yea, that's a very good point, cynical marketing aside the game also has its own momentum driven by its fans, it keeps going year after year after year, there has to be more too it than just that, with all the years its been going on and with all the press about it that's out there you would think it would fizzle out. no, and no signs of it slowing.
That may suggest that a significant number of people are getting what they want from it. people clearly like this game enough, or whatever it is, to me its a game, one that has problems, i know people who play SC, a lot, also own this game and don't like it, i do.
They could very well be getting what they want out of the game. I know a few backers who play the game nightly or at least weekly. I also know a backer who put in about $1200 USD (one of those Golden Ticket holders) who had nightmares around 2015 that Star Citizen wasn't going to come out on time. Then there are original investors, like Bootcha, who went on to create the excellent Sunk Cost Galaxy series. I occasionally wonder how many extant backers stick with Chris et al because to get out at this point would mean accepting (to them, personally, because funding and development are continuing regardless) that they wasted time and money on a thing that hasn't been realized to date, and supporting CIG is the less painful option, both emotionally and financially. And then there's simple attrition, where the longer this project goes on, the more original backers will forget about it, move on, or consider their money spent on a gamble.

But that's all anecdotal evidence combined with my own thoughts, because we'll never know actual numbers or how backers really feel unless they voice those things.
 
I asked what people though of the game, not Sandi Gardiner or Chris Roberts, i'm no fan of either. The internet is already full of criticism of those two, none of it is new to me, i was hoping to get your perspectives on the game, perhaps i'm asking for too much.
I play a lot...backer since 2015. It needs work :)

There's a few of us who regularly post on here play SC on a daily basis, or like you have put in thousands of hours over the years not only into Star Citizen but also Elite...I'd agree with Sovapid though, there's not many of us about. I've taken a bit of a holiday from SC of late, except recently messing about in the 3.13 PTU during wave 1...getting bored waiting for the patch to go live so Ci¬G can get on with the important stuff...like giving me my Hercs to flutter around in.

However, I'm not what many would consider a 'fan' of Star Citizen...it has it's good points, but they're vastly overshadowed by the lack of development due to mismanagement.
 
Last edited:
There is a reason for this, CiG was not an established studio, they didn't have the financial backers to make the game first and then release a finished product for people to buy.

So the idea was for backers to fund the game as its being developed and it return have access to a playable version of the game as its being developed.

This is what's happened, for the devs to make playable versions of whatever progress they have made at fixed 3 month intervals probably creates its own challenges and time resources. Bugs included.

Ah, the old "they had to build a company first" line. I was wondering when this card would be played.

Indeed, you are correct, they did. There are just some problems with making this an excuse.

1) At launch they showed off a demo implying they had already done a lot of work. They said they had been working on it for a year already and it was kind of "look what we've already achieved!" There is even a statement from one of the first devs they actually started working on it in 2010.

2) CR's own statements they would have a release in 2-3 years "otherwise things will get stale". CR never said back then they had to build a company before they could release the game. They said, give us 5.5 million and we will create you the BDSSE in just a few years.

3) CIG from the start heavily relied on contractors. At one point they were contracting out to around 10 different companies while they built the company. Most of those are gone now, most notably Illfonic, but Turbulent remain and are becoming an even more important part of CIG's plans these days. So the romanticized vision of the first couple of years just being Chris and a few guys working on Star Citizen is just a fantasy.

4) Development methodology. I mentioned Agile to you before. The point of Agile is to focus on development in small parts and in each sprint produce a working deliverable. Now, with a project like Star Citizen, you don't get a working product from just a few sprints of course, but each component developed should work by itself. CIG could have followed Agile to develop a basic working game in a few years. Something like flying a spaceship around with a number of working gameplay loops, added some polish, and made a release of it, showing backers they could deliver on their promises. This could have been Star Citizen 1.0. At this point, they have a releasable product and go on to develop it further through the sale of DLCs. They only really needed kickstarter to get version 1.0 out of the door with some buffer to make version 2.0. CIG, for whatever reason, chose not to do this. Probably because they saw how much money people were giving them and simply thought they could do everything at once while continuing to expand the scope of the 1.0 release. They didn't have to make fully landable planets part of SC 1.0, they chose to do that themselves. They never asked backers to vote on it.

It was entirely CIG's decision to keep the game in eternal alpha, instead of delivering a 1.0 and freeing themselves from the need for eternal funding. But that would have required them to actually hold themselves responsible for delivering a product and iterating on it, risking failure and criticism.

As i've said before, CIG have taken 9 years and close to 500 million and they still haven't produced something that is on a par with what they said they could do in 2-3 years with 5.5 million.
 
I asked what people though of the game, not Sandi Gardiner or Chris Roberts, i'm no fan of either. The internet is already full of criticism of those two, none of it is new to me, i was hoping to get your perspectives on the game, perhaps i'm asking for too much.

Fair enough, but Sandi and Chris are two of the founding members of CIG so they kind of are part of the package.

At the end of the day, CR is the CEO of the company and the reason many people backed. Its hard to discuss the game without the frame of CR as CEO and what it means for the development of the game.
 
The number of people in this thread who actively play Star Citizen is miniscule.

You might have better luck asking what people think of videos and streams of Star Citizen.

Oooh, Bingo card is filling up nicely these days.

The old "If someone doesn't play a game they can't have a valid opinion of it" card!

They asked us what we thought of the game, they were warned by Golgot right from the start that "Not sure if you’re aware, but this thread is weighted very heavily to the 'sceptical' end of SC appreciation"

The question asked "was what do people here actually think of Star Citizen"

Which includes not only how the game plays but also its history, its plans, its management, etc.

If he wanted to ask a different question then he could have done. He can still reframe his question, asking what people think of videos and streams... hope he's ready for an influx of videos showing bugs and crashes though :D

Or he could simply ask the question on /r/SC and be told that everything is wonderful.

I guess he posted here knowing we are on the critical side and wanted to get our responses specifically.
 
Not at all, i have seen reviews at both ends of the spectrum, they all make good points.

You're a rare breed. Many backers when asked this question would say "Its ALPHA" as a reason it can't be reviewed like a released game. This is usually not long after they have been telling people that SC is already better than any AAA game out there.

The alpha shield is something the faithful have been hiding behind for years to deflect any criticism of the game. But one those evil FUDsters are gone, they go back to talking about the game like its the best thing in the world.
 
Back
Top Bottom