Probably because arbitration is stacked heavily against the plaintiff. As I understand basically you're forced to do arbitration at a time and place of CIG's choosing (although maybe it can be done online as well) and then basically you go in, explain why you want a refund, and CIG simply says "No", and that's it. You have no other recourse. You agreed to arbitration when you accepted the T&Cs.
Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
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Probably because arbitration is stacked heavily against the plaintiff. As I understand basically you're forced to do arbitration at a time and place of CIG's choosing (although maybe it can be done online as well) and then basically you go in, explain why you want a refund, and CIG simply says "No", and that's it. You have no other recourse. You agreed to arbitration when you accepted the T&Cs.
I agree with a bit of what you say. But at the end of the day it isn't a 'scam'. Many on here already understand that.
People throw scam around without fully understanding what a 'scam' is.
This project is massively mismanaged, and yes, relying on players dreams, at whatever the cost, not a nice way to do business.. but, but, but..
I don't like the way the game/project has been pushed, I got a refund earlier than many. I could clearly see it was being mismanaged and he/they were promising to 'possibly put in' far too much. You just had to watch the chairmans half hour (the first couple of outings).
Also the competitions, when nothing had been done yet, like the best ship comps. It was almost back to front business running.
That was the time to get a refund.
However with all that said, its not a scam.
The people that moan the most are the people that frankly have no money in the game.
Edit: I would add that I still have a small ship package, because believe it or not, I think there may be a good game at the end of it (if I'm still alive). I wouldn't have that package if I thought 'scam'.
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The plaintiff was arguing CIG had not delivered a game they purchased, SC. Hard to argue that when it's a live game, in whatever state. And TOS requiring arbitration is legally binding if you agree to it.
TOS cannot take away legal rights though. Pre-order DLC like ships bought that are not yet in game are eligible for refunds at any time up until delivery. As is SQ42 if bought separately.
Come on, don’t leave us hanging… pray tell us what a scam is!
He is not eligible for refund on ships already in game, period. Not after the 14 day period after purchase. CIG are not obliged to agree to any settlement beyond what is required by law. He had no case to begin with.
If he had bought ships not yet in game he could request refund just on those, not the game itself and not everything else bought.
There is a missing word here "yet", i haven't paid my mortgage off yet, doesn't mean i have already stolen my house from the bank.
If you made false claims about your salary in order to get that mortgage, the bank will foreclose regardless if you "intend" to pay it off or not.
Agreed. His lawsuit was doomed to fail the moment he filed it. IIRC his case also included ship purchases that were done under different ToS versions.
IMO his lawsuit should have had multiple charges which themselves would be adjudicated yes/no: separate purchases out between ToS versions, and whether they'd been fully-delivered or not. That way while CIG could have argued certain purchases had been satisfied with judge agreeing, other purchases could have been argued as non-delivery; same goes for the different ToS applications.
Assuming he was then able to have the judge agree that at least one charge was valid, he could then have negotiated for out-of-court settlement and appropriate recompense for other purchases, without the media being notified of the "win".
I'd agree with most of what you said above. As long as there is intent to make a game (and there clearly is in this case) then 'scam' is inaccurate for the project as a whole. (Although the possibility remains that they have sold premium products while fully aware that they can't deliver them, regarding ship pre-sales. That would definitely head into 'scam' territory.)
You need to go visit the refunds subreddit friend
Or hell, just look at the court case being mentioned here about the guy who couldn't get his $4.5K back ¯\(ツ)/¯
The greatest ire about SC definitely comes from the backers who feel that they have been scammed...
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You don't need to be frauded to identify a fraud.
It'd be for the better.
It'd be interesting to see which way the backers would jump - carry on supporting the project without CR or, well, or what?
Theranos “had the intend” to deliver its product for about what, 15 years?
I agree, there are a lot of players that want a refund. But based on the numbers playing, it's not that large, but they are there (I was one).I'd agree with most of what you said above. As long as there is intent to make a game (and there clearly is in this case) then 'scam' is inaccurate for the project as a whole. (Although the possibility remains that they have sold premium products while fully aware that they can't deliver them, regarding ship pre-sales. That would definitely head into 'scam' territory.)
You need to go visit the refunds subreddit friend
Or hell, just look at the court case being mentioned here about the guy who couldn't get his $4.5K back ¯\(ツ)/¯
The greatest ire about SC definitely comes from the backers who feel that they have been scammed...
Yes, if a refund is requested then it should be available. They paid me back within a 10days, mind you it was a lot smaller at around £500. They got sticky about refunds because they had a sudden influx helped, in large, by CR himself and that ridiculous 'Chairmans questions'. Many players started scratching their heads and thinking.. well we know don't we, I thought the same.
Yes, its a hugely and I can't express that enough, hugely mismanaged project by someone that can't say no and is more on the creative side than the business side. But it is still a project that he believes in (imo) and there is no real reason to think there was a clear intent to defraud/scam the public.
Is it ethical, in some ways not really. Could the game have been done already with the funds already raised to date, that is a question perhaps those in dev world could answer.
But it's been mismanaged sooo badly that they're still at it.
I would say to anyone going in, keep your package to the lowest, or near lowest. Understand what it is your putting money into, keep fingers crossed and hope we'll get there.
I think it will get there, to be honest.
Yes, plus telling investors and customers that the product already worked as advertised
Theranos - Wikipedia
Elizabeth Holmes indicted on wire fraud charges, steps down from Theranos
Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes has been indicted on federal wire fraud charges, the office of the United States Attorney for the Northern District of California announced Friday.
money.cnn.com
The documentary is a great watch, I highly recommend it
Theranos didn't pre-sell non-existing products. They mostly just scammed their investors.
There are some 780-850k paying customers of CIG according to sleuthed data from their site. How many of those actively play? Most people neither talk on the forums, nor say they have received a refund.
How are you judging # of refunders from anecdotal evidence of # of people playing?
Yeah, no. They have enough money to finish two games and then some, by their own admission. No need to "put money into" it. If it is ever released, read the reviews and decide if you want to play it. Until then, invest in actual investments, not CR and his retirement fund.