Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
- Thread starter Yaffle
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Oh man, that thread. Its fricking hilarious.... and i haven't even found one white knight yet. Might have to start uncollpasing comment chains to find them.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
No, no, according to CIG the SC game is indeed delivered (in early access) so no backsies. Other than the usual few weeks refund period.
And that leads into its own tricky situation. If it is delivered, why the disparity between what was sold and what was delivered.
No, wait, don't tell me. ITS ALPHA!!!
Holy moly, 52k upvotes and 6500 comments
Holy moly, 52k upvotes and 6500 comments
Top post on gaming on "hot".
Next place only has 5k upvotes.
I was just watching a streamer who I really enjoy, talking about how they enjoy both SC and ED as they are fans of space games, not fans of a specific game. And that is absolutely fine.
But it made me think about why it is I personally dislike SC so much ("hater!") when others might not see it the same way, eg streamers I like, and I realised it isn't just the funding model. That, of course, but it isn't just that. I was reminded about something Moist Noodle said earlier today on twitch, suggesting people complaining about SC didn't understand how IT works
as if this is how it has to work!
No. It's BECAUSE I worked in IT. It's BECAUSE I'm a programmer, an "Analyst Programmer" as we used to call the role in UK. Writing systems to fulfil a specific function required by the customer/user. And what we did not do was what CIG/Croberts do. Start at the @rse end of the project and then try and work back the way, from graphical bells and whistles back to function and god forbid a design. It really grinds my gears, IT projects like this, games or otherwise.
....
Anyway. This was low lever cathartic. Thanks for listening.
But it made me think about why it is I personally dislike SC so much ("hater!") when others might not see it the same way, eg streamers I like, and I realised it isn't just the funding model. That, of course, but it isn't just that. I was reminded about something Moist Noodle said earlier today on twitch, suggesting people complaining about SC didn't understand how IT works
as if this is how it has to work!No. It's BECAUSE I worked in IT. It's BECAUSE I'm a programmer, an "Analyst Programmer" as we used to call the role in UK. Writing systems to fulfil a specific function required by the customer/user. And what we did not do was what CIG/Croberts do. Start at the @rse end of the project and then try and work back the way, from graphical bells and whistles back to function and god forbid a design. It really grinds my gears, IT projects like this, games or otherwise.
....
Anyway. This was low lever cathartic. Thanks for listening.
Yeah like databases, you can have all the fancy bells and whistles in the user UI you want, but if you screw up the database design it's worth nothing to anyone. You get data storage and relationships working first using a basic functionality UI, then you design the end user UI to work with the data. If you create the UI first and then try to create the database to work with the UI who knows what you will end up with!
I'm not entirely sure that episode 0 is off the drawing board yet, given the 'evidence' to date.
I remember a particularly horrendous AS/400 incident involving screenshots and a TIFF overlay before screenshotting again and passing to OCR to pass back to AS/400.
The only way to get over that was buying an Idris and enjoing a nice game of SATABall.
Why should he thank you? Thats a pitiful amount and everyone needs to buy more MOAar MORE to get the game done.
I would not mind if you had something to show for it. So far its still slick PR, an empty walking sim and rudimentary Elite mission sim. All that for half a billion dolla?
I ask myself if there are real reasons (other than wanting to keep milking the funders to keep getting funds) why, after 10 years, the development of SC and the first chapters of SQ42 is still not finished.
Talking about SC and PU, I always have the same doubt; they have spent years developing only things that don't involve the use of the 2 great base technologies of the game that obviously are not yet implemented, that is to say; Server Meshing that, in theory (we'll have to see it in practice), would allow to expand locations through Jump Points, expand simultaneous players and create a global universe, and total persistence, that would allow objects to have persistence in space and time.
As both technologies are not implemented, it is not possible to develop things that need those technologies, and that is why CIG only publishes; new ships and vehicles (many, which also bring money), new locations such as flying cities, bunkers, rivers, caves, etc... (which also look good because of their graphics) and mechanics in primitive states and without the need for those base technologies, such as the medical role or the expansion of the minery refining and selling the things you have mined.
That, which is hardly anything for a game in development after 10 years, can only be complemented (to give the feeling of progress and growth) with basic, repetitive events, with hardly any depth, and which are also working terribly and which, obviously, still don't need any new technology, such as the Nine Tails, or Jumptown.
By the way, I still can't understand why these events are called "dynamics" and "player-driven", because both things are absolutely exaggerated, but that's another subject...
It doesn't matter if they've been talking and showing Pyro and Jump Points in Citizencons, Insides, or promotional videos for 3 years, they can't implement them in the game in a decent way until they have Server Meshing, and that's why they haven't released them in the PU yet.
I see everyone very confident that both, Server Meshing (even if it ends up being very different from what they initially sold) and Persistence, are going to be developed and implemented in the PU. People obviously don't know when; whether in early 2023, or late 2025... but they are absolutely certain that they are going to be implemented. And I'm sorry, but I'm not so sure. Let me explain.
We are really talking about the 2 things that give sense to all SC. Without them, no matter how many ships with interiors, locations with amazing graphics, and infinite professions like being a stewardess of intergalactic flights or a space barista, SC would be "just another game" in space. The whole dream that CR initially sold through its "Death of a Spaceman" is based on those 2 things. So if they are so vital, it's not logical that they haven't implemented them already. It's certainly what they should have implemented from the start, along with the base game engine. Besides, having implemented it years ago would not have caused any harm, neither in the further development, nor in the continuation of funding... in fact, I think it would have been the opposite, and having them years ago would have boosted even more the funding (yes, I really think so).
So I don't see a reason not to have implemented them already, neither from a marketing point of view, nor from a development point of view. And, therefore, I see only one possible answer; they have not yet been able to develop them successfully. And my thought is that, if after 10 years of thinking about it, they still haven't been able to do it, maybe it's because it's not possible to do it the way they thought and sold it.
Of course, having published them some time ago would not have done any damage, but to say now that you are not capable of developing them... that really sinks the ship in 5 minutes. Now there is no turning back.
The problem comes with SQ42; it's a campaign game mode that doesn't need any of that, it just needs locations, characters, a story, etc... Why the hell haven't they released it already? What are they doing with SQ42 to not have released it for years if, besides, in 2019 we were supposed to have even the beta? I can understand the PU problems, I can even understand the ToW problems related to lag, desync, etc... but what's stopping them from releasing SQ42?
That's my biggest question right now.
Talking about SC and PU, I always have the same doubt; they have spent years developing only things that don't involve the use of the 2 great base technologies of the game that obviously are not yet implemented, that is to say; Server Meshing that, in theory (we'll have to see it in practice), would allow to expand locations through Jump Points, expand simultaneous players and create a global universe, and total persistence, that would allow objects to have persistence in space and time.
As both technologies are not implemented, it is not possible to develop things that need those technologies, and that is why CIG only publishes; new ships and vehicles (many, which also bring money), new locations such as flying cities, bunkers, rivers, caves, etc... (which also look good because of their graphics) and mechanics in primitive states and without the need for those base technologies, such as the medical role or the expansion of the minery refining and selling the things you have mined.
That, which is hardly anything for a game in development after 10 years, can only be complemented (to give the feeling of progress and growth) with basic, repetitive events, with hardly any depth, and which are also working terribly and which, obviously, still don't need any new technology, such as the Nine Tails, or Jumptown.
By the way, I still can't understand why these events are called "dynamics" and "player-driven", because both things are absolutely exaggerated, but that's another subject...
It doesn't matter if they've been talking and showing Pyro and Jump Points in Citizencons, Insides, or promotional videos for 3 years, they can't implement them in the game in a decent way until they have Server Meshing, and that's why they haven't released them in the PU yet.
I see everyone very confident that both, Server Meshing (even if it ends up being very different from what they initially sold) and Persistence, are going to be developed and implemented in the PU. People obviously don't know when; whether in early 2023, or late 2025... but they are absolutely certain that they are going to be implemented. And I'm sorry, but I'm not so sure. Let me explain.
We are really talking about the 2 things that give sense to all SC. Without them, no matter how many ships with interiors, locations with amazing graphics, and infinite professions like being a stewardess of intergalactic flights or a space barista, SC would be "just another game" in space. The whole dream that CR initially sold through its "Death of a Spaceman" is based on those 2 things. So if they are so vital, it's not logical that they haven't implemented them already. It's certainly what they should have implemented from the start, along with the base game engine. Besides, having implemented it years ago would not have caused any harm, neither in the further development, nor in the continuation of funding... in fact, I think it would have been the opposite, and having them years ago would have boosted even more the funding (yes, I really think so).
So I don't see a reason not to have implemented them already, neither from a marketing point of view, nor from a development point of view. And, therefore, I see only one possible answer; they have not yet been able to develop them successfully. And my thought is that, if after 10 years of thinking about it, they still haven't been able to do it, maybe it's because it's not possible to do it the way they thought and sold it.
Of course, having published them some time ago would not have done any damage, but to say now that you are not capable of developing them... that really sinks the ship in 5 minutes. Now there is no turning back.
The problem comes with SQ42; it's a campaign game mode that doesn't need any of that, it just needs locations, characters, a story, etc... Why the hell haven't they released it already? What are they doing with SQ42 to not have released it for years if, besides, in 2019 we were supposed to have even the beta? I can understand the PU problems, I can even understand the ToW problems related to lag, desync, etc... but what's stopping them from releasing SQ42?
That's my biggest question right now.
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Limp Noodle only sees the superficial bling and it blinds him like so many others. You know those cheap plastic household applications that have shiny chromey finish but break at the first opportunity. Ppl buy them for their looks. Theynever learn.I was just watching a streamer who I really enjoy, talking about how they enjoy both SC and ED as they are fans of space games, not fans of a specific game. And that is absolutely fine.
But it made me think about why it is I personally dislike SC so much ("hater!") when others might not see it the same way, eg streamers I like, and I realised it isn't just the funding model. That, of course, but it isn't just that. I was reminded about something Moist Noodle said earlier today on twitch, suggesting people complaining about SC didn't understand how IT works
No. It's BECAUSE I worked in IT. It's BECAUSE I'm a programmer, an "Analyst Programmer" as we used to call the role in UK. Writing systems to fulfil a specific function required by the customer/user. And what we did not do was what CIG/Croberts do. Start at the @rse end of the project and then try and work back the way, from graphical bells and whistles back to function and god forbid a design. It really grinds my gears, IT projects like this, games or otherwise.
....
Anyway. This was low lever cathartic. Thanks for listening.
Chris Roberts.
He has form with Freelancer and the Wing Commander film, where he proved incapable in limiting scope to what was achievable, and hence the overrun in both that only limited funding brought to an end.
As things stand I can't see how this mess will get finished, and the concern is that the underlying coding is now in such a mess that neither is deliverable.
This is the SC circle of life. Keep selling massive capital ships to not make your MMO
---
It's an odd conclusion, but I've decided that the core problem with SC is: They're actually trying to make the game.
Not the isolated functional bits and pieces. That's all fine, as far as they go. But the mad overall architecture. The 'Dynamic Server mesh', the 10:1 dynamic living NPC complement, etc etc. And they can't...
So round and round they churn. Running on pride, potentially...
Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/mkfq15/development_hell/gthkbug/
And a rich diet of funds, to keep on doing just that...
Not that they have much of a choice, as you say ¯\(ツ)/¯
It is actually more commingled with SC than you'd think, and has been impacted by server tech. They have to fine-tune the 'server-side object container streaming' for example:
When SC changed how object data was stored, for server meshing reasons, that changed SQ42's save data and missions, seemingly:
We could also look at other shared tech which is counter-productive for a single-player game, like the unified avatar etc.
But at heart, SQ42 still requires its fundamentals to work. Grenades that don't boomerang back into your hand after multiple attempts at a fix. Etc etc. And we can see from SC that they seem to be nowhere close on elements like that.
It's pretty tempting to believe that, due to their 'live alpha as performance' school of development, and history of absurd scope creep, they've simply tech debt-ed themselves up the wazoo...
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Alan Sugar, with his succint phrasing when he released the first Amstrad all-in-one HiFi with the flashing lights and pumping patterns and etc said it all (paraphrased because I can't remember the exact wording,) "it doesn't matter what's inside, it can be the cheapest crap ever made, but as long as it's a mugs eyeful it will sell like hotcakes!"
That's what SC is, the mugs eyeful of the video game world!