Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
sovapid said:
so if/when SC releases, if you get sick the first week you are doomed because you will hopelessly behind everyone else?
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Not necessarily. That’s going to depend on all other factors including people’s skills levels and actual time spent on game. The pay to win advantage is going to impact your gameplay one way or another though, see the example discussed with Ant above where you take the starter Aurora and Ant has bought a Vanguard:

In that theoretical example Sovapid would still have in general more difficulties beating a pilot in a Vanguard than the same pilot in an Aurora. That would translate into Sovapid wasting more time in that fight with its corresponding opportunity cost for exemple, or taking more damage than against an Aurora costing him extra repairs, or making him more vulnerable to being third partied with a higher risk of losing his ship altogether etc, when compared to fighting an Aurora.
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But skill variability and game time availability goes the same for every other game out there. Otherwise we would be suggesting that pay to win simply does not exist in gaming.

All you can do to minimize pay to win in game design is to make the advantages obtained with money so small that it is as if they were never there.
 
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cigwatch

cigwatch
Viajero said:
That’s going to depend on people’s skills levels and actual time spent on game. But that goes the same for every other game out there. Otherwise you would be suggesting that pay to win does not exist at all anywhere.

The pay to win advantage is going to impact gameplay one way or another though, see the exemple discussed with Ant above where you take the Aurora.

All you can do to minimize pay to win in game design is to make the advantages obtained with money so small that it is at if they were never there.
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You would also need to somehow neutralise the power of organisations, which would be completely against dreams.txt. SC is a gankfest by design, like Eve Online.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
cigwatch said:
You would also need to somehow neutralise the power of organisations, which would be completely against dreams.txt. SC is a gankfest by design, like Eve Online.
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Oh yeah, as mentioned pay to win exists in SC at all levels, large or small and across different activities. Then it is just a matter of degree of p2w, but I don’t think you can get all ships in SC with maxed up gear in under “a week” anyways.

And if you can, as Tiberius rightly says… what a waste of game assets.
 
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varonica

varonica
metatheurgist said:
There are metal 3D printers, so everyone will probably be firing 3D printed guns one day. We are on the cusp of a manufacturing revolution.

There's a nifty video from a few years ago of a functional metal printed turbine from one our local unis. Can't find it now amidst the sea of people that print metal parts for thing.
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Yeah but that defeats the entire point of 3D printed guns for those who want them. 1) Cheap. With the cost of metal 3D printers arguably it would cost more to make guns than just go out and buy them. 2) Stealth. People think that plastic 3D printed guns are undetectable by law enforcement and can be smuggled onto planes, into prisons etc.

We are certainly on the cusp of a manufacturing revolution, but it more applies to small runs, which leads to costly parts in current manufacturing methods. Being able to 3D print a single metal part as cheaply as manufacturing tens of thousands is where it's at. Prototyping has practically already been revolutionised by 3D printing.
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
rootsrat
Mole HD said:
It doesn't quite work like that...not that I'm defending P2W or anything, but having a fleet of bling barges doesn't necessarily mean you won't be exploded by randoms flying starter package ships on day one. This urban myth that those who've spend more money on the dumpster fire will benefit more in a PvP sense from doing so is nonsense...It only makes a difference if you're buying larger cargo or trade specific ships outside of the starter package offerings...(ie) mining or salvage ships...nothing else.

Practically all of the PvP meta ships are in the $65-$150 basic small ship range 🤷‍♂️
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Fair enough, BUY - 90% of new players will buy the cheapest Aurora package and will know nothing about how to play the game. 100 USD is already twice the cheapest game package. It doesn't have to be Pay Gazillions To Win. It can be Pay Twice the Starter Pack To Win.

Still - it is pay to win. If there is a wipe and a noob that now knows better has a goal to get into the cheapest meta build - he is still very much so suseptible to be tracked down and griefed by someone in a 75 USD small PVP boat package. Simply because that person paid 25 buck more to have an advantage.

Or is my logic flawed here?
 

metatheurgist

metatheurgist
varonica said:
Yeah but that defeats the entire point of 3D printed guns for those who want them. 1) Cheap. With the cost of metal 3D printers arguably it would cost more to make guns than just go out and buy them. 2) Stealth. People think that plastic 3D printed guns are undetectable by law enforcement and can be smuggled onto planes, into prisons etc.

We are certainly on the cusp of a manufacturing revolution, but it more applies to small runs, which leads to costly parts in current manufacturing methods. Being able to 3D print a single metal part as cheaply as manufacturing tens of thousands is where it's at. Prototyping has practically already been revolutionised by 3D printing.
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Yep. My point was more about not firing a 3D printed weapon. A real gun is just metal parts, I'd fire one printed from metal. That does defeat the point of plastic guns which is to evade detection. 3D printing has done amazing things but I'm more looking to the point where it becomes commonplace enough for people like mole and me to buy metal printers. Everyone could be a cottage industry at that point. Mole could fully service his hogs by his lonesome without buying those dodgy American parts.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
metatheurgist said:
Yep. My point was more about not firing a 3D printed weapon. A real gun is just metal parts, I'd fire one printed from metal. That does defeat the point of plastic guns which is to evade detection. 3D printing has done amazing things but I'm more looking to the point where it becomes commonplace enough for people like mole and me to buy metal printers. Everyone could be a cottage industry at that point. Mole could fully service his hogs by his lonesome without buying those dodgy American parts.
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I wonder if anyone tried 3D printing a submarine?

Asking for a friend.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
StuartGT said:
It's going to be very funny to see the opinions and goalposts change when CIG implement some/all of the scoped/promised reputation and crafting grinds into SC. Just like how travel times changed from the imagine phase to being implemented.

"it's quick to travel in SC, other games are a massive travel grind"
--> "travel in space is supposed to take a long time, it's immersion, if you don't like it play something else"

"it's easy to get stuff in SC. other games are a massive grind"
--> "getting the rep and mats for the stuff you want is the progression and is supposed to take a long time, it's immersion, if you don't like it play something else"
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I also like the p2w rationalization goal post moving:

“There is p2w now but CIG will not sell ships on launch”
—-> “There is no win”

Because it capitulates on CIG continue selling ships after released…. Hold on, didn’t CIG just explicitly confirm SC is already released? :)
 
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Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Viajero said:
I also like the p2w rationalization goal post moving:

“There is p2w now but CIG will not sell ships on launch”
—-> “There is no win”

Because it capitulates on CIG continue selling ships after released…. Hold on, didn’t CIG just explicitly confirm SC is already released? :)
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Just another broken promise from CIG.
 

LittleAnt

L
Viajero said:
Because it capitulates on CIG continue selling ships after released…. Hold on, didn’t CIG just explicitly confirm SC is already released? :)
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No, SC is not released. Only in your biased narrative "play now" is transformed into "released". SC will be released when in "gold" status.
 

StuartGT

StuartGT
LittleAnt said:
No, SC is not released. Only in your biased narrative "play now" is transformed into "released". SC will be released when in "gold" status.
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Ed02349 said:
Is this the official CIG position, as in quoted from a statement by a CIG employee or the big man Chris Roberts himself?
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https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/14s9bjm
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/14s9bjm/just_received_my_refund/

8iMfNwL.png

CIG said:
rebuts the false allegation that the game has not been released.
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Ed02349

E
StuartGT said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/14s9bjm
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/14s9bjm/just_received_my_refund/

8iMfNwL.png
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I don't know.
That whole letter is a big mess of mixed messages. All those arguments to prove a point and not enforce the point? It mirrors the whole development history, a lot of words but not much substance nor consistency.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
LittleAnt said:
No, SC is not released. Only in your biased narrative "play now" is transformed into "released". SC will be released when in "gold" status.
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No, no. SC is already released. See latest statements by CIG regarding Early Access release in marketing campaigns, in game info and also in CIG official legal related documentation recently.
 
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