Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[TiberiusDuval]

I understand if monetisation idea is to sell ships that starter tier ships suck, but should they be nearly useless? Say in ED starter Sidewinder is not very good ship for most uses, but it can do many things acceptably. Starter ship after all serves in most important phase of game, time when one has first impression of the game.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

I do tend to think that CRobbers is not intentionally scamming people. I just think he is incompetent, egotistical, arrogant, deluded and easily manipulated. The real worm tongue in CIG is Ortwin Freyermuth, who is scammer in chief.

I often examine this sentiment and its easy to come to the "never attribute to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" adage, but for my own experiences investigating CryEngine for use within a military flight sim back in 2012. It was quickly apparent CryEgnine back then could not be used for large world(s) sim style games, without a ground up rewrite of most of it (myself and a few others "with form" tried).
With hindsight and that knowledge, I can't say with any sincerity that the adage still stands...it sounds like the words of an apologist in this instance.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I knew his accomplishments well, but I didn't know him. When I started to learn about him, that's when the warning lights went off in my head. I readily admit I succumbed to the CR personal sales charm, and felt no need to check his background (initially) when making my investment decision. That being said, my eye was on the 2015 release. When that wasn't going to happen, I began to see the writing on the wall, in that I wouldn't see a return on investment for a loooooooooong gently caressing time. That conclusion has certainly proved itself with SQ42's status, if not SC's. Plus when you consider cost of development, which is often tied to many ROI agreements, consider that CIG has spent over 300 million in 8 tax years. Even if SQ42 were to sell like hotcakes and bring about 150 million in sales, that's an additional 150 million and counting that needs to be "made up" before significant ROI can be gained. In short, my investment was going to be sitting around burning itself when it could be better applied elsewhere. Honestly my biggest "entertainment" investment regret was not investing in Frontier. I would have made gently caressing bank, dude.

There's a bit of an unearned gift in conventional wisdom of "Oh big investors do their homework, they know everything". People with means to get that information sooner rather than later are still subject to "gut" feelings that would override good sense. The difference in who has da money is who diversified their hedged gut bets over a longer period of time. People with money (and even education) are just as prone to stupidity, be it self-inflicted or coerced, as someone without it. Rich smart suckers are the best suckers.

How did he get to pitch his thing to you?

 

[VR jefranklin18]

I often examine this sentiment and its easy to come to the "never attribute to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" adage, but for my own experiences investigating CryEngine for use within a military flight sim back in 2012. It was quickly apparent CryEgnine back then could not be used for large world(s) sim style games, without a ground up rewrite of most of it (myself and a few others "with form" tried).
With hindsight and that knowledge, I can't say with any sincerity that the adage still stands...it sounds like the words of an apologist in this instance.

I am no Roberts apologist; I would have thought the adjectives I used made that clear. He has been bankrupt twice that I recall, so I genuinely think he has no capability to construct such an elaborate scam.

Freyermuth is a whole different story. Although of course, Roberts enabling it makes him equally complicit.

 

[Mole HD]

I understand if monetisation idea is to sell ships that starter tier ships suck, but should they be nearly useless? Say in ED starter Sidewinder is not very good ship for most uses, but it can do many things acceptably. Starter ship after all serves in most important phase of game, time when one has first impression of the game.

Ci¬G recently introduced the Asp Scout Nomad as a starter ship... and not before time. They actively resisted including anything useful in a starter package to promote sales of upgrades... The Nomad is a surprisingly good all rounder. Good shields, decent hardpoints, very quick and holds a decent amount of cargo for it's size. If I had to go back to chosing a starter ship package from a general gameplay point of view ...I'd go for the Nomad beyond a doubt. But I have the benefit of hindsight where as new backers don't...they usually go for something that looks like a fighter, (Gladius etc) imagining that SC is pureley suited for that short sighted type of gameplay in the longer term... but those little fighters are naff all use as anything else, pinning the short sighted buyer to a life of pew then complaining that the gameplay they've restricted themselves to is all rubbish

 

[VR Golgot]

Ci¬G recently introduced the Asp Scout Nomad as a starter ship... and not before time... it's a surprisingly good all rounder. Good shields, decent hardpoints, very quick and holds a decent amount of cargo for it's size. If I had to go back to chosing a starter ship package from a general gameplay point of view ...I'd go for the Nomad beyond a doubt. But I have the benefit of hindsight where as new backers don't...they usually go for something that looks like a fighter, (Gladius etc) imagining that SC is pureley suited for that short sighted type of gameplay in the longer term... but those little fighters are naff all use as anything else, pinning the short sighted buyer to a life of pew then complaining that the gameplay they've restricted themselves to is all rubbish

It’s also $95...

The more evangelical backers will insist that a '$45 starter package' is all you need to SC. But it does seem that it ain’t necessarily so

 

[EUS]

Ci¬G recently introduced the Asp Scout Nomad as a starter ship... and not before time. They actively resisted including anything useful in a starter package to promote sales of upgrades... The Nomad is a surprisingly good all rounder. Good shields, decent hardpoints, very quick and holds a decent amount of cargo for it's size. If I had to go back to chosing a starter ship package from a general gameplay point of view ...I'd go for the Nomad beyond a doubt. But I have the benefit of hindsight where as new backers don't...they usually go for something that looks like a fighter, (Gladius etc) imagining that SC is pureley suited for that short sighted type of gameplay in the longer term... but those little fighters are naff all use as anything else, pinning the short sighted buyer to a life of pew then complaining that the gameplay they've restricted themselves to is all rubbish

It’s also $95...

The more evangelical backers will insist that a '$45 starter package' is all you need to SC. But it does seem that it ain’t necessarily so

If I ever want to upgrade, I'll wait for the company to create and release most, if not all ships before melting what I have.
No point doing it now, then watch as a better ship for the same $$$ gets released in 3, 6, 12 months.

 

[Mole HD]

It’s also $95...

The more evangelical backers will insist that a '$45 starter package' is all you need to SC. But it does seem that it ain’t necessarily so

Not currently...typically Ci¬G have obfuscated the prices by introducing 9,000 variant packages and raising the prices on anything useful. The Nomad was $60 when it was released...but you're correct, there's no way to go through playing SC with a basic $45 starter package ship and it never was a realistic option. Fortunately, you can now rent or buy ships in game once you start making a few credits...that's the hard part

 

[Firkrayt]

The Nomad is a surprisingly good all rounder. Good shields, decent hardpoints, very quick and holds a decent amount of cargo for it's size.

It is good to see that the New Lakon Ship holds up to the glory of Cobra, Asp and Python.

 

[Mole HD]

It is good to see that the New Lakon Ship holds up to the glory of Cobra, Asp and Python.

Don't you mean Faulcon DeLacy for the Cobra and Python? Both of mine have a big logo in the cockpit to remind me

 

[BirdWisdom]

Not currently...typically Ci¬G have obfuscated the prices by introducing 9,000 variant packages and raising the prices on anything useful. The Nomad was $60 when it was released...but you're correct, there's no way to go through playing SC with a basic $45 starter package ship and it never was a realistic option. Fortunately, you can now rent or buy ships in game once you start making a few credits...that's the hard part

View attachment 202423

I would rather have bought ready-made games for those prices.

 

[VR Golgot]

Not currently...typically Ci¬G have obfuscated the prices by introducing 9,000 variant packages and raising the prices on anything useful. The Nomad was $60 when it was released...but you're correct, there's no way to go through playing SC with a basic $45 starter package ship and it never was a realistic option. Fortunately, you can now rent or buy ships in game once you start making a few credits...that's the hard part

View attachment 202423

Yeah I've found their focus on the 'Starter Pack +' tier to be interesting this year. Not just the Nomad, but the mini Avenger fleet added too. There are now 8 ships that fill out the various 'starter packs'. With other tempting upgrades sitting just above them.

Maybe Chris ain't lying, and new sign ups really are where the new money is

 

[Mole HD]

I would rather have bought ready-made games for those prices.

Depends on what you like, I've said it often...Star Citizen outside of the forum discussions of development or scam conumdrums is quite enjoyable at times

Yeah I've found their focus on the 'Starter Pack +' tier to be interesting this year. Not just the Nomad, but the mini Avenger fleet added too. There are now 8 ships that fill out the various 'starter packs'. With other tempting upgrades sitting just above them.

Maybe Chris ain't lying, and new sign ups really are where the new money is

Star Citizen has always been the same with the starter package nonsense...practically everyone from my generation of backers (2014/2015) immediately ignored them all and bought in with a Cutlass Black package back when it was $80. I was no different.

It used to be a common discussion on the game chat with new backers who realised they really had to upgrade after trying their mostly useless Aurora or Mustang out in game..."What's my best upgrade?"

The answer was invariably. "Avenger Titan for an extra $15." That still hasn't changed for the lowest cost upgrade question. All part of Ci¬G's predatory marketing strategy...and that's never going to change.

 

[VR Golgot]

So I decided to do a line by line expenses report forecast, and this is what I came up with:

All number values in thousands (1,000). Note: Contracted GDC was calculated with 2017-8-9 for 2020-1 projections, and 2017-8 for 2019 projection. Same with Capex & Invest. The reason for this was to avoid a negative number outcome (meaning negative expenses in an expense report). 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 P2020 P2021 P2020 Subtotals P2021 Subtotals Projected 2019 P2019 Diff Salaries & RC 21011 24684 29992 33797 39714 43795.3 48447.2 43795.3 48447.2 38287.5 -1426.5 RoW 11185 15364 18761 22009 24684 28493.5 31857.8 25797 1113 US 9826 9320 11231 11788 15030 15301.8 16589.4 12490.5 -2539.5 Overheads 5910 5861 6541 7600 8915 9290.1 10065 9290.1 10065 7915.5 -999.5 RoW 2910 3321 3506 3955 5104 5265.8 5768 4253 -851 US 3000 2540 3035 3645 3811 4024.3 4297 3662.5 -148.5 Contracted GDC 14103 7554 3313 3564 5697 6575.3 7767.3 6575.3 7767.3 3815 -1882 RoW 8178 5491 3007 3261 4239 4734.3 5350.3 3515 -724 US 5925 2063 306 303 1458 1841 2417 300 -1158 POCEM 6115 4792 7106 9032 11404 12135.2 13617 12135.2 13617 9527.5 -1876.5 RoW 1151 965 1575 1778 3890 3759.1 4388.2 1990 -1900 US 4964 3827 5531 7254 7514 8376.1 9228.8 7537.5 23.5 General & Admin 646 706 826 1317 2272 2312.3 2698.6 2312.3 2698.6 1407 -865 RoW 126 380 78 279 316 319.5 347.4 255 -61 US 520 326 748 1038 1956 1992.8 2351.2 1152 -804 Sub-Total 47785 43597 47778 55310 68002 68138.5 77333.0 74108.2 82595.1 60952.5 -7049.5 Capex & Invest 2664 1419 1087 857 2429 2799.7 3470.7 2799.7 3470.7 627 -1802 RoW 982 827 870 454 2036 2286 2869 38 -1998 US 1682 592 217 403 393 513.7 601.7 589 196 Total Cost + Capex 50449 45016 48865 56167 70431 69520.1 79556.8 76907.9 86065.8 61579.5 -8851.5

So, the line by line seems to be a lot more kinder to CIG, but also a lot more off, than the straight up annual total expenses prediction...

The line-by-line total+ "projected" 2019 expenses was -8,852k under the actual 2019 reported. That's a 0.8743 under-reporting of actual, or rather a 15.8%/0.1575% margin of error. On average, the difference between the line-by-line predicted expenses of 2019 and the actual 2019 reported was a 24% under-reporting by the model. Here's a chart of the distance from 1 each calculation was:

View attachment 202294

For comparison, the straight up EoY total+ 2019 expenses "projection" was 72,991k, or +2,560k over the the actual 2019 reported. That's a 0.045582118 difference, or 5% rounded up.

What does this mean? As best I can tell, this means that there are more "event" based expenses that contribute to CIG's overall expenses, than there are gradual "linear" expenses.

We'll have to wait and see what events cost CIG money in 2020... next year.

So I won't claim to follow how you arrived at this, but what would make their expenses 'lumpy' like that, in theory? (Going by their financials you'd think that wages, and a slow increase there, would be the main deal right?)

So like, paying back loans? (Unlikely with the Calders cash shoring them up?). Upfront outsourcing payments for sale events? (Paying Turbulent to build the latest convention centre and pull CGI Clarkson out of the cupboard, or what have you ). I guess we know they paid an upfront amount to Icesprite. (Presumably this $1.7m on their books?). I guess that kind of stuff starts getting lumpy?

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

I am no Roberts apologist; I would have thought the adjectives I used made that clear. He has been bankrupt twice that I recall, so I genuinely think he has no capability to construct such an elaborate scam.

Freyermuth is a whole different story. Although of course, Roberts enabling it makes him equally complicit.

Apologies - I hadn't meant that your words sounded like an apologist for CR, but rather my own internal musings when considering the adage...

 

[BirdWisdom]

What I think is wrong with some games is that you can buy equipment and ships for real money and gain advantages over other players.

While a poor player must grind a few hundred hours or perform 1000 missions to get to the same level against the rich player.

And when you have advantages against other players, isn't that really cheating then?

 

[Mole HD]

What I think is wrong with some games is that you can buy equipment and ships for real money and gain advantages over other players.

While a poor player must grind a few hundred hours or perform 1000 missions to get to the same level against the rich player.

And when you have advantages against other players, isn't that really cheating then?

I've found that it depends on whether you approach a game as adversarial or cooperatively minded.

It's long been a thing with Star Citizen through being able to buy large ships with real cash and use them from the getgo. Personally, I'd suggest that the players who relish the idea of the pay to win factor are only cheating themselves rather than others.

I have a fair few ships I've gathered over the years...but that's the thing, with Star Citizen being nowhere near any release schedule but many of it's backers having played for many years already...how can you quantify that? It's essentially no different than joining any other MMO as a new player and dealing with folks who are 5 year veterans of the game...which is about where a lot of us are with Star Citizen, cash bought ships or not. Up until very recently with the 3.8 patch, there was no ability to buy ships in game nor keep either those ships or the credits earned with them...neither was there any form of consistent gameplay to allow that to happen through having all progression wiped with every quarterly patch.

I don't see the big issue with Star Citizen, not through any lack of perception on my part but rather that I've been playing for 5 years with precious little earned in game progression to show for it...Will I have a starting advantage over some random new guy in 20 years when the live game is a possibility? Yes...I will...but no more than I'd have for playing WoW or another MMO for that length of time. We'll all be wiped back to the stoneage if it ever sees a beta anyway...then again with a live release. I'll be wiped back to exactly what I have at this moment bar a few millions of in game earned credits.

 

[VR Golgot]

We'll all be wiped back to the stoneage if it ever sees a beta anyway...then again with a live release.

Well, your stone age will come with with a lovely obsidian mining blade (Prospector), and a deluxe deer-skin knapsack (Caterpillar). And, well, I dunno what other weird stone age gear you've bought? A strange fuzzy hat for adverse conditions? (Cutlass Black).

I think compared to the average naked noob you will be doing pretty well.

But I think we can all agree that the real advantage will be your knowledge. Like 'never do squats, you will die'. That stuff is the true life saver

 

[Mole HD]

Well, your stone age will come with with a lovely obsidian mining blade (Prospector), and a deluxe deer-skin knapsack (Caterpillar). And, well, I dunno what other weird stone age gear you've bought? A strange fuzzy hat for adverse conditions? (Cutlass Black).

I think compared to the average naked noob you will be doing pretty well.

But I think we can all agree that the real advantage will be your knowledge. Like 'never do squats, you will die'. That stuff is the true life saver

The squats thing made oi laff

But really, having realistically played... or taken part... in the project since 2015, the ships I've paid for are exactly the ships I'd have bought in game already if I'd had the opportunity to do so...even in the released version sometime in 2035. You never know, maybe I'll dodge the never released bullet and sell my stuffz on the grey market before it happens

Somebody will always be a has nowt newbie, no matter what game you play

 

[McGlashan]

I would honestly like to see SQ42 released . . . with VR support included. See, that's the result of having been spoiled by ED. Pancake mode is simply no longer for me. Once you've flown any ED ship in VR mode, there's no going back.

I know that CRobberts once upon a time (long ago) mumbled about adding VR support, but even I know just enough about that to know that he was talking out of his rear exhaust port.

I still consider ED to be a top tier VR experience, but even Frontier have run into the problem of how to implement it in a hybrid cockpit/FPS game with Odyssey. When they were up front about it they got a lot of grief for announcing Odyssey wouldn't have VR support (at launch, or whatever). Meanwhile Roberts' approach is, as always, to lie, to claim they're currently working on it, or that it's basically a done deal, just need to flip the switch etc, and then simply never deliver it. Which is, judging by his acolytes, somehow better. Just another on a very long list of features they are so certain SC "will" offer, that we're supposed to treat it like it already does.

I do tend to think that CRobbers is not intentionally scamming people. I just think he is incompetent, egotistical, arrogant, deluded and easily manipulated. The real worm tongue in CIG is Ortwin Freyermuth, who is scammer in chief.

What I've come to realise about Roberts is that he's really not a game developer, or even a gaming enthusiast, he's a used car salesman fronting a game development as the latest in a string of failed businesses. The problem (one of them) is that in his mind he's a genius gaming visionary, come back from his relatively minor successes of the 90s (compared with what counts as a success today) to show everyone how it's done. Except he doesn't have the talent or the skills required to pull it off. It's fortunate for him that he's made a ton of money out of this, because he's not likely to get another chance.