Star Citizen Thread v6

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JohnMice

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Lol mate, props for slipping in an insider joke related to the Star Citizen flight model old discussions with no one noticing for several pages!

Thanks, I would figure someone would noticed it. I think it's a short'n'sweet phrase that applies to Star Citizen and it's game development process, as gamer's expectations clash with the harsh reality of observing (and tasting!) the sausage getting made in a project this big and ambitious It would never be pretty sight, that's why it's allways done behind doors. But since CIG business foundation rely's on it for all the good and bad that it takes. It's really a necessary evil that Star Citizen backers learned to embrace as it gives them a much closer and detailed look at the game they backed compared with the closed "traditional development" method.

One of the key aspects of a future game like SC or of actual games like Elite, or many other MMOs in general, that is ofetn forgotten is that of player/character progress with time. Many players in Elite by and large manage their activity instinctively trying to get the best bang for buck, or translated to game terms, the more Cr per time unit (barring all the other emergent content and role play you can also have in it). I have so far no reasons to believe SC will be any different when released. And as such I struggle to reconcile a manual cargo loading/unloading and arranging mechanic in it as it directly defeats the main progress logic in the game by making you waste time. Players on their way to deliver their next mission in time will just click on the "insta load/unload button". Only if such a manual mechanic is rewarded in some way or form, over and beyond the satisfaction of the minigame itself, will this be at all successful or popular. So far I have not seen what is the in-game mechanic or trade off feature that would make manual loading/unloading incentivized in any way. Another option would be to actually de-incentivize auto loading/unloading by making the player have to wait a certain time. Incentivizing manual loading this way would probably be the worst way to to go about it though, especially if the mini game ends up being somewhat boring.

I've already mentioned a while back the "dangers" of comparing SC and ED. (TLDR: they are so far apart in game design and the experience they strive to give the player that it's like comparing oranges and apples, just look at each company take at game development, flight model, basic missions, multicrew experience, avatar/ship design etc. Same like comparing the old Elite with Wing Commander/Privateer, set in space yes, but play and offer completely different experiences)

That same error is done when while cataloging Star Citizen or Elite with other traditional MMO's because usually we tend to think about the Everquest/WoW/GuildWar's which are the standard mmo's with all the emphasis going to character creation and player interaction/socialization and thousands of players interacting in the same environment.

Yes Elite is a mmo in the sense that it has many players playing in a shared universe but not necessarily together, ok it's missing a lot of RPG features by not focusing on the avatar primarily while Star Citizen focus in player interactivity and socialization is in it's original core design at the expense of the "massive" number of players. With the expansion of scope and tech the aim is now for bigger figures of players to interact in the same instance with custom network tech being developed for that propose.

The way I see it Elite at it's core design is more of a single player spaceship-sim sandbox that allows for curated online interaction while Star Citizen goes more for the traditional MMORPG style with a client/server model. While P2P works well for Elite style of gameplay it would never work for games like WoW and Star Citizen where PvP and resource gathering/economy is such a big part of it's game design. Just Imagine being able to avoid death in WoW by alt-f4 while in combat or re-logging near the thorium ore endlessly to farm it...

That leads us to player/character development/progression. Both SC and ED don't rely on lvl's like traditional mmorpgs do but use item and currency loss to keep it interesting. While Elite rely's on credit's farm to buy new and better ship's and upgrades through several activities they are all tied to flying a space ship, while in Star Citizen having legs there's more options, as demonstrated in the baby PU players can complete quests and earn credits without flying a ship. It's different takes on the kind of game experience that the developers want to emphasis on. Any mmo game as different kinds of player variants between the casuals and the hard-cores.

Loading/Unloading cargo manually is not just about time sink but also money sink. Pay to have it unloaded, the bigger the cargo the more you have to pay to unload, probably will take more time. Safer job's will be paying less for more "work" while risky jobs pay much for "less" work but more risk. Besides, Carrying cargo is a core part of gameplay that implicates questing, EVA, team-work, pirate/bounty interaction etc. Not just trading.

That's one of the many appeals of Star Citizen's. The options in gameplay while keeping different players connected and playing together, I like to fly cargo from point A to point B while my friend likes to shoot pirates, instead of we both play on our own way while helping each other. Bounty Hunting, Pirating, Repairs, Miners etc all playing connected in a seamless universe.

Ditto with other proposed mini games like the drink mixing or procedural bird hunting.

I think mixing a cool Tony Zurovec gameplay concept to make long distance journeys less of a bore, a Star Citizen backer question and a David Braben dream goes a long way but doesn't quite match the implication of the cargo mechanic for Star Citizen gameplay.

I presume that by "always" you mean any time except during the the time the Stretch Goals have been public and achieved thanks to backers money and while the selling product description is still up in the main RSI site, both stating the "at launch" promise for the 100 systems?:


Always in the sense that's how game development works. Incrementally adding planets~content as they develop~test them.

Going back into game development plan's is always a fun exercise to do after a game's release to see how much and what changed. Doing it during development is rather pointless, and to make a fuss about it is rather strange because it's probably gonna change even more further down the road. Every game changes from it's core design in some way or another, same goes for it's development "plans and schedules".

The schedule is already at the limit of what it can stretch. I.e. Live is shown at Gamescom week.

I dont think CIG can afford the schedule to show any window delay (Evocati, PTU or Live) moving things after Gamescom because that would mean admitting insta "defeat" ("defeat" defined as releasing any version of 3.0 after Gamescom) when we are still several weeks away from it. Why would they want to accelerate that pain unnecesarily and impacting all the hype based sales from now until then in the running up to Gamescom?

No, I think they will indeed not delay any of the windows later than Gamescom week, and will relase "a" 3.0 before or at Gamescom anyways, even if it is just Evocati, in whatever state the game is at that moment. They could probably release Evocati right now even if the game crashes every other second and FPS average 5-10. If CIG fails to release even Evocati by that date then that would be really an indication of much much more serious issues.

Update 3.0 and Gamescom Presentation are different things.

Update 3.0 is the biggest update in Star Citizen development by adding not only planetary landings / procedural planets but a bunch of new tech and playable content. The leap from 2.6 to 3.0 is huge and if CIG has to delay it further Gamescom they will because they can.

Gamescom and Citizencom are show's where CIG show's it's backers the development progress of the game, in tech, content and direction. The live played demos by a group of QA is just a part of it, to demonstrate CIG intentions for some of the game loop mechanics. Simple as that.

Intelligently CIG also showcases new concept/hangar/flyable ship's, and like it was always done. It's followed by a sale and backers splash them with some millions more because they like what they see. Same as last year, and the one before and so on. Re-watch Gamescom 2013/14/15 etc It's all about showcasing the overall direction of the game, gamer's like it and want to support it, and they do, in spades, I mean dollars. Millions of them. That's how CIG is able to keep independent of Publishers, by providing their backers with info about what they are pledging and making the game of their dreams.

I can actually see some appeal in this system for smaller ships- not for those massive Hulls though!

I think a lot of people are thinking about the many missions we get in ED that might be stacked and finished in a couple of minutes. But what if everything in SC is slowed down, so we have fewer more meaningful missions and voyages?

Of course, putting more emphasis on the non-travel, non-combat aspects of a mission will make it hurt more if you fail.

Also, CIG would have to be extremely careful to not make SC a second job... stacking boxes in space is unlikely to be more fun than stacking boxes in a supermarket. I think that there should be options for cargo arrangements to be done automatically for you, even if it is a robotic worker. They would be far better at distributingthe cargo for optimal handling than people. If something were to go wrong, and boxes broke loose mid flight, then that has potential.

Yes I think indeed the idea is to have everything at a smaller scale and slower, what are meaningful and simple tasks in other games being taken to the next lvl in Star Citizen and adding depth and context to the world. Unloading and loading your ship takes time and money, adds to the decision and gives you time to waste exploring the city, leading to players going into bars and shops, interacting, finding quests etc.

PCGamer wroten an article on the 3.0 Update (which they got to play and confirm, again, to seamlessly go from space into planet)
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Followed up with Theft and Insurance article: http://www.pcgamer.com/how-star-citizens-ship-insurance-works-and-how-players-will-exploit-it/
 

Task-days remaining looks to have a half-life somewhere around 3 weeks.

Edit: Hmm... if it really is the decay graph it looks like, we could ballpark possibilities. 6 more weeks would leave task-days remaining at ~25. From then (or perhaps slightly before), random noise in the data stands an increasingly good chance of setting task-days remaining to zero.

That would imply (8th) September onwards for 3.0 release, and very good odds that it would be out before the end of October.

Disclaimer: I'm far too lazy to do any real maths on this, so treat the above as humour.
 
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The insurance system is going to be a hoot when it's introduced:

Of course, your ship will get blown up at some point, which is where the insurance comes in. If you've bought insurance, and your ship gets destroyed, you can pay the 10% deductible, which will expedite the replacement of the ship. If you don't want to pay that money, you can try being patient: the deductible will eventually burn down to zero and you'll receive your replacement ship without having to pay anything extra.

Of course, like real insurance companies, Star Citizen's fictitious insurance company won't be completely forgiving. "But the more times you claim," Roberts said, "the higher the deductible gets." This is another way to get players to take their ships seriously, to avoid rushing into danger or at least to proceed with caution, and especially to earn in-game money through missions and get their ships repaired instead of just junking them when they've taken a little damage.

So a new player in an Aurora gets his/her ship blown up by any other ship.

Now what do they do? Wait 10 minutes (for example) to keep playing, or pay and get their ship back.

Ship gets blown up again. Now wait 15mins or pay again. Oops not enough credits, guess they wait. - Oh look I can buy credits from CIG with real money. Awesome!


Uninstall game & go rant on Spectrum.

Nobody plays games to watch a rebuy counter tick down.
 
Loading/Unloading cargo manually is not just about time sink but also money sink. Pay to have it unloaded, the bigger the cargo the more you have to pay to unload, probably will take more time. Safer job's will be paying less for more "work" while risky jobs pay much for "less" work but more risk. Besides, Carrying cargo is a core part of gameplay that implicates questing, EVA, team-work, pirate/bounty interaction etc. Not just trading.

The question would be, what would the player do while its being unloaded/loaded, and how long will it tame? As long as there are other things to do, like visit mission givers or whatever, then it might be ok.

But the whole idea of manual loading/unloading, for anything more than a couple of tons... ugh, can't see that being popular at all.
 
The insurance system is going to be a hoot when it's introduced:



So a new player in an Aurora gets his/her ship blown up by any other ship.

Now what do they do? Wait 10 minutes (for example) to keep playing, or pay and get their ship back.

Ship gets blown up again. Now wait 15mins or pay again. Oops not enough credits, guess they wait. - Oh look I can buy credits from CIG with real money. Awesome!


Uninstall game & go rant on Spectrum.

Nobody plays games to watch a rebuy counter tick down.

You mean if they have insurance right? That will solely depend on how SC handles players on launch. Yeah, backer packages might contain x months (lifetime) insurance,but who can say whether that is true for launch. So worst case would be new player logs in, then walks over to in-game insurance company and hopes starter cash is enough for insurance + an actual mission to start playing. If not,then take off and hope you don't get blasted out of the sky right away.
 
The question would be, what would the player do while its being unloaded/loaded, and how long will it tame? As long as there are other things to do, like visit mission givers or whatever, then it might be ok.

But the whole idea of manual loading/unloading, for anything more than a couple of tons... ugh, can't see that being popular at all.

you answered your own question imo.

(in elite - because SC is not a game yet but SC could / should / (will?) be similar) ,you get in with your T9 and options could be whilst unloading, search mission board / commodities board OR i would suggest there be a separate section for "local missions for this system"
There should possibly be ways to streamline it however, pay for prioritised loading / unloading.... give us access to the commodities market when in super cruise as an overlay in part of our screen (that bit between our legs perhaps) and then we can get our commodities lined up and hopefully a buyer for our warez before we even land. The loading / unloading does not even need to be that long imo. just enough to give it a "nod" to the fact that something is happening. same imo with repairs. refueling could happen at the same time as loading etc imo.

in this local mission system section the gear would be supplied and be context dependant so in a legal system you get patrol missions, if there is a warzone on RES in the system you may be required to join those. the ship supplied would depend on your elite rank / rep in the system / military rank.

pirate equivalents as well for the more nefarious in the right systems.

there could even be small data courier missions within the local vicinity, again with a supplied ship. bonus here would be it would take some of the missions currently on the mission board off it, allowing more of the other missions.

WHY bother you may ask? arguably from a pure profit making thing if all you want to do is space truck then what is the point... to me it all falls back to 1 word verisimilitude

one of the complaints from a lot of people about elite (and is something some are hoping SC may improve on here) is that Elite is often accused of being a spreadsheet simulator. another is mile wide inch deep.

i suggest putting in things like the above add some depth. yes it may force us out of our comfort zone for a few things, but imo if it makes the game more convincing i am all for it. (here is the space for the part where someone argues "why not have forced toilet / food / drink breaks then if you want realism"

but as with another thread where i was fairly enthusiastically shot down i know for some none of the above is important they just want to get their money asap and be on their way as soon as they can. imo this is the problem with elite, and could well be with SC too.

these games need to know what itch they are trying to scratch. imo FD are tiptoeing around trying to straddle all camps, and in some ways I reckon it is holding back the game from being the game which was sold back in KSer.

will SC go the same way? dunno we will have to have a game out 1st to decide. I gotta admit i play a lot less now, maybe a few hrs a week. I have lost that feeling of verisimilitude. I hope a future DLC can bring it back and I am now looking more to SC, and maybe XR VR. Snag with both of them... the flight model cant hold a candle to ED. imo
 
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you answered your own question imo.

(in elite - because SC is not a game yet but SC could / should / (will?) be similar) ,you get in with your T9 and options could be whilst unloading, search mission board / commodities board OR i would suggest there be a separate section for "local missions for this system"
There should possibly be ways to streamline it however, pay for prioritised loading / unloading.... give us access to the commodities market when in super cruise as an overlay in part of our screen (that bit between our legs perhaps) and then we can get our commodities lined up and hopefully a buyer for our warez before we even land. The loading / unloading does not even need to be that long imo. just enough to give it a "nod" to the fact that something is happening. same imo with repairs. refueling could happen at the same time as loading etc imo.

Well as I said before there is this huge difference that lead to so many technical cluster : the real physicality of the cargo crates.

As I asked before, how exactly those auto cargo load and unload work? What's going to happen when the cargo space on the ship is physically blocked while someone use that auto load system?

Nevermind that, I can elevate the ridiculous situation by asking this something very simple yet clearly overlooked on SC so far, I think nobody has realized and asked this before...

You see, so far in SC, there is absolutely no ship to station landing/docking lock mechanism... I realized this like a week ago, one of the reason why ships are locked to the dock/landing pad on practically every space sim games that have cargo gameplay, those games possibly need the ships to be locked so that they could properly spawn the cargo and tied it to the ships.. But all those games don't have real physical cargo like SC...

Which is why this thing may matter even more in SC, because those physical cargo crates needed to be spawned inside a real physical cargo bays on those ships, that must involve some precise 3D calculations by the game, otherwise how can you properly mix all those cargo types and ship types?

But then, if the ships are landing/docking improperly like we know human players tend to do, would that not create potential game breaking issues when the game try to spawn cargo crates on them?
 
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That is a real "Emperor's new clothes" point, fella: so obvious, yet it needed pointing out (serious, no sarcasm implied, it is a genuinely important point to make)

How on earth (or Terra), does the game manage a graphical depiction of manual cargo loading, when your BMM is parked upside down on the back of an Aurora...

Let's face it, how fiddly can it be lining up your SRV under certain ships on certain terrains in "the other game" to allow re-boarding...

Edit: wording and added 3rd line
 
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Is it just me still awestruck by all the fussing over cargo loading and how realistic the process of moving containers into your ship should be when ships just magically pop into existence on landing pads attached to stations with no visible mechanisms for ship storage or relocation?

It's like fussing over how your doorknobs should work when you've not even got a house to start with.
 
Is it just me still awestruck by all the fussing over cargo loading and how realistic the process of moving containers into your ship should be when ships just magically pop into existence on landing pads attached to stations with no visible mechanisms for ship storage or relocation?

It's like fussing over how your doorknobs should work when you've not even got a house to start with.

Ahh.....you nitpicking now.....who cares about that,most important thing is that slaves&poor citizens will load&unload cargo in meanwhile the rich citizens will walk around the shops&bars and spend more&more money.......I guess thats the point right?Circular Flow Of Income so that CRoberts can continue his development forever and ever...
 
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Ahh.....you nitpicking now.....who cares about that,most important thing is that slaves&poor citizens will load&unload cargo in meanwhile the rich citizens will walk around the shops&bars and spend more&more money.......I guess thats the point right?Circular Flow Of Income so that CRoberts can continue his development forever and ever...

No... he's trying to apply logic and reason to a situation where none exists.
 
Ahh.....you nitpicking now.....who cares about that,most important thing is that slaves&poor citizens will load&unload cargo in meanwhile the rich citizens will walk around the shops&bars and spend more&more money.......I guess thats the point right?Circular Flow Of Income so that CRoberts can continue his development forever and ever...

You mean a pyramid scheme with CRoberts at the top and the whales being his officers draining all the plebs?
 
Is it just me still awestruck by all the fussing over cargo loading and how realistic the process of moving containers into your ship should be when ships just magically pop into existence on landing pads attached to stations with no visible mechanisms for ship storage or relocation?

It's like fussing over how your doorknobs should work when you've not even got a house to start with.

Those are 2 very different things, because so far the hangar, or whatever ship spawner location are rather a fixed location in the game that no one can mess with, while ships and their cargo are going to be in much more dynamic state during gameplay... And with that, such issue will certainly matter when players start dealing with bengal carrier that is being used as smaller cargo ships station by players.
 
I guess a single Bengal Carrier, a capital ship designed to hold dozens of critical (bridge) crew likely manned by players while requiring hundreds of people (probably filled up with AI crew) to operate and maintain will offer multiple times of the content, space, complexity and overall everything that Star Citizen offers as total at this time. Talking stations, spots you can interact with machinery which affects the ships behavior, PoI's and sheer size.

I d love to dream about such gameplay and would love to have a game that offers this but honestly, Star Citizen is not the game that will make this a reality, its at best a spearholder coming up with the idea. Other companies will eventually achieve this and apart from dreaming it up CRoberts will have no hand in realizing it. I mean just think about the development progress so far then think about what else is required in order to make Bengal carriers a reality. From a realistic point of view Star Citizen never will have a chance. Even IF they manage to get the fundamental game mechanics down flawlessly (no doubt requiring a lot of refactoring and time) the glacial progress will only become even slower once they come into really "complex" territory so development total might span 20 years or more from this point. You know that World of Warcraft one of the longest going games which still generates revenue that big publishers would kill for is on the decline.....and thats after just 10 years of continually offering content and improvements while players enjoyed a deep and engaging game world? And that is the exceptions, most MMOs these days either switch to a F2P or P2W model after a few short months or from the start in order to make any money.

The average player mentality simply doesnt allow for an interest spike this long. Stuff gets old and in case of SC which doesnt offer all that much things will (and have) go boring in no time. Interest is generated by new stuff something that CiG only provides once a year (maybe) and this rate has been going down over its course of development. I m talking real progress here not the "theoretical development". Reality (PU)and fantasy (ATV) are worlds apart. Even then in the big picture of things 3.0 is just a tiny step along the way and its already 8 months late probably making it a full year by the time we can realistically expect it to hit the PU....no doubt in a buggy, reduced and unpolished state. If CiG manages to stay afloat for the next 10 years "maybe" another company, one with a competent management will realize this dream. In this regard the SC whales which keep the faith and throw money at this abomination of a project are actually helping the space sim genre as a whole....by proving continual interest and showing financial investment making this particular game genre "interesting" to game developers. And for that I am thankful to them....just their manners are really horrible :)
 
What really happened is they tried to pass off a demo as a live build when it was completely unrepresentative of their actual progress, and massively underestimated what it would take to make it real. I'm sure behind the scenes they had all the limitations that this guy's claiming, but that's not how they presented it to backers at the time.
The funny thing is that I can't think of any group of people who have a poorer grasp on "software development" than victims of the SC scam / redditors.
Well said. I have nothing to add. See you on Aug 22nd. [up]
 
As I think we all accept there is zilch going on in SC at the moment, my ED ship is floating in space 19,000LY out- bored, and there are not any games I fancy playing at the moment.

So I was thinking about the different characters I have encountered on this forum and got to thinking about their Star Citizen Journey and how they got to the view point that they express on this forum. To keep on topic the process gave me an insight into how SC may have seemed to some people over the last 5 years. And brought into context some things I have read about the history of SC development (I am not even really 2 years in)

This is far from an exhaustive analysis, in fact as everything should be in a gaming enviroment I am, as always having a bit of fun. Here is what I did:-

I looked at this forum and its predessors going back to 2012 in what a statistics expert would describe as a a sloppy effort. In fact I dip sampled the pages and looked at any names I recognised in a bit more detail.

As an unapolgetic 'fanboy' with $50 invested I have come to consider this ED forum as hostile or perhaps enemy territory, It turns out that it was not always that way!

It starts in 2012 with only one name I recognise and almost everyone is hoping it all works out well, one person says
"SC is going to cost about $12 million, I wonder how realistic that goal is"
There is no real polarision, then in 2012-2013 some people (a few) see the games as a threat to each other and a small amount of dissing on both sides starts.
Interestingly the mods are very active in their comments and involved in the discussion positive to both games.

2014 sees a real noticable change
Yaffle says -- "Another reminder, please stop arguing and sniping at each other"

Since then there have been many predictions and comments on both sides many wrong, The mods have had to intervene very often when feelings run high.
I have put some quotes from this forum here for your amusment. It is pro SC biased, that is deliberate as the forum is currently very anti CIG quoting missed goals and changed plans ETC. You may recognise your comments which may turn out to be incorrect or correct.

"Star Citizen will not happen the tech will not allow it."

"The final game will not be seamless, but rather will be a series of interconnected games. A FPS component, a space combat component, a planetary component. Ultimately it will not be a seamless experience, but simply a set of different games housed within one universe"

"Took me a while to see through the SC marketing but I think the bamboozling feature list boils down to:
Going from one tedious cut scene to another.
When the cut scene takes you to space you're dealing with small instances with images stamped on the background.
The gameplay is/will be no more challenging that the mainstream can handle.
All risk and consequence will be limited to what the mainstream can handle.
There'll be crafting, loot, and grinding.
A dated handcrafted approach leading to a small universe reliant on DLC updates."

" I went to SAG A, It took me 20+ hours, 15 of that was looking at the same cut scene"

"CIG does not have the tech for seamless FPS transitions"

"Star Citizen cannot pull off seamless planetary landings"

Fom a moderator, "I would strongly suspect that even though there are likely to be cut-scenes in SC it will still be interactive to some extent"

"It would take at least 5 years and $150,000,000 to make it, that is not going to happen"

This bit is a converstion comparing SC and ED
COMMENT"Remember that ED is going to have an expansion at a later date which allows you get around and walk about. It won't be at release and perhaps not for another year- it's true"
REPLY "According to your logic and how the general population here treats SC's 'promises' that haven't yet come to fruition, I could easily doubt ED will ever come through with that. "I'll believe it when I see it."

From 2015--" The CIG businessmodel, beyond this $85m pledge phase, is unsustainable CIG will collapse in 90 days"

"SC has been designed for an xbox 360 controller in mind. I just can;t understand why you'd make a PC only space flight game for a xbox 360 controller"

This bit is a converation about P2W
COMMENT X said 'CIG is making its money selling power and player advantages. Just wait, when the FPS module comes out, you will be able to buy guns for real world cash.
someone REPLIED to x 'Its out now They let you buy weapons? Where exactly? The only weapons on the store are for in-game credits.
X replied ' I am sorry that you are so misinformed about the game, please do a little research before you come into a thread'

"So the vanguard is another air-plane in space. Look at all those pointless wing flaps, its not like players are ever going to fly them in atmosphere"

From 2016 "Within the next few week everything not SQ42 related will be shut down"


A couple of the names I recognised have been here since 2014 and have not really changed their view which are balanced but negative and with a little hope.
All the original positive people left in 2014 when the forum went the way of reddit.
Some people came from nowhere very well informed and very negative from the start.

Something happened in 2014 to change things. My best guess is that is was the PR disaster of a CR live fly event, I watched it and it was cringworthy, but did not dent my hope.

SC is worth striving for, that is what the forum wanted in 2012. When it happens the tech will change our gaming lives for the better. My guess is 3.0, 3.1 ETC will be good and in 2018 or 2019 it will develop into a worthwile experience.

I lived through ED Beta and Alpha, many got bored and went back to EVE.
Thanks for reading
 
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