Star Citizen Thread v6

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JohnMice

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I know I'm not the funniest guy at parties but...notice how that's not the proper rendering of a mirror at all? A proper rendering of a mirror should reflect (in 3d) things back from your point of view, while in that "groundbreaking" tech snippet, the viewports clearly display (in 2d) the point of view of a fixed virtual camera placed somewhere convenient for the demo. Trust me (or even better, trust Asp Explorer :p who seems to have his sources spot-on), you won't see high-definition, correctly rendered mirrors anytime soon, not to mention in those sorry remains of a CryEngine. The last game I know of who could correctly render a mirror at very high quality and fidelity of reflections was Duke Nukem 3D, and for very specific reasons you will easily find with 0.35 seconds of Google search.

As for PiP, interactive overlays and renders to texture...yes...

absolutely groundbreaking technology
Nothin personal against you JohnMice, I know I won't move you one inch with my small technical intrusion and it's not even my intention to, you are of course entitled to you opinions and have all the right in the world to be enthusiastic about something you believe in.

Yes it's a camera view bein projected in multiple screens. They used as example and the dev clearly mentions the applications in mirror's in the ATV video.
I never said it was new tech, I even posted the E3 Half Life 2 Demo. I said that it was groundbreaking in the context of it's utilization in a MMO setting.
There's no opinion to be moved and of no offense to be taken when sharing points of view in a cordial manner.

I'm fully aware of other applications through the years of rendering to texture and I even posted 2 articles that go in depth about the work done in that field in what video-games is related:

- https://www.giantbomb.com/functional-mirrors/3015-4618/
- https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-man...o-using-working-mirrors-in-their-environments
 
CIG presented their pitch, people liked what they saw and gave them way more money than predicted so they scaled their game accordingly with the backers funding. The absolutely righteous thing to do and best decision on the long run for the game imo. For me the fact that they have grown from a 6 people with nothing but a pitch video and a dream into a multi-million dollar company with studios across the globe and 430~ employers, some of them being industry leads in their fields is a testament to how good of a decision that was

On the contrary, I think it was by far CIG's biggest mistake. They should have cut off all avenues for funding when they thought they had enough (at around $65M). It is impossible to manage a project when the budget keeps expanding, and it is impossible for CIG to be truly honest with the backers so long as future income depends on what they say.


You can't expect Star Citizen to be developed like Elite Dangerous for example, as they are completely different projects with completely different funding model's, constraints and above all design choices and experiences to the player. The way I see it Star Citizen Universe is being made from the inside (micro) and expanding (macro) because it choose to focus firstly on the "player" while Elite is being built from the Outside (macro) to inside (refining and filling it) because it choose to focus first on the Universe and adding stuff to it later. Both decisions come with pro's and con's but were the way the companies felt the better way to developed their game.
However, it is generally a good idea to develop game rules and mechanics before worrying too much about the highly polished assets :). SC is in danger of being a virtual theme park rather than a game.



Hey Wookie, only a tiny portion of gamers actually enjoy testing and reporting bugs, that's what a real alpha is for. 2.6 as been out long enough for most of the gameplay available has been thoroughly tested by the interested backers. I don't think Star Citizen alpha is bad, it's what an alpha is supposed to be and I've had a ton of joyful moments play-testing it, both alone and with friends.

Also I wouldn't compare Star Citizen alpha stage to the traditional one's advertised by normal publishers. When you play an alpha the game foundations are probably 90% set in stone, feature complete and mechanics ironed out and polished, and dev's are looking to test optimization.

The reality is that games in development are not very "pretty" for greater part of their production:

From a kotaku article: 2. Games look like complete *** for 90% of their production

You can attest that not only in Star Citizen but in many other crowdfunding games (don't mistake for early access games) in the making that I've mentioned before, Crowfall, Kingdome Come, etc

I'm glad that you have had fun in the game. You say you don't think it's bad, just an alpha, and not even a normal alpha where everything is 90% done and feature complete (sounds more like a beta to me :)). Given you linked to an article saying that games look like "complete ****" for 90% of their production, do you think that all the alphas to date have been "complete ****"? Do you foresee many years of "complete ****" to come? If so, you might have some sympathy for other people who are concerned about the huge amount of money going to a company with no released products, a musty, creaky pedigree, and only "complete ****" to show since the first alpha release over 3 years ago.

I'm not anti SC myself, and I would love for it to be a great game. I've seen a few glimmers. But I totally understand anyone who's written the game off entirely.

Also, reading that article, does it not strike you as odd that CIG did almost the exact opposite approach?
 
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That's a ludicrous theory considering that CIG has in their rank some of the senior engineers who built CryEngine from scratch about 15 years ago.
These are the same germans that introduced the PG tech and allowed for the increased scope of Star Citizen.

Hmmm sure but do you know that the very same Germans can´t find solution for problematic networking in CE for all those years???Also beside that your genius CIG programmers need it "only"3 days to figure out that in CE anything below 0(axis) is in water by default???
 
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That's a ludicrous theory considering that CIG has in their rank some of the senior engineers who built CryEngine from scratch about 15 years ago. Shown here at the 5m42s mark:

One of those guys in the video is not like the others (hint, it's the only guy they didn't show his full name and only referred to him as 'Chris')...

Senior Engine Programmer vacancy for Frankfurt went up on July 21 this year:
https://cloudimperiumgames.com/jobs/218-Senior-Engine-Programmer
edit - Just to be clear, this is one of the magic germans quitting the project.

As an interesting sidenote to the CryEngine techs involved with Star Citizen, CIG reached out to Warhorse a few years ago:
https://gamerant.com/star-citize-kingdom-come-devs-working-together/

"The characters and outfits I saw working in-engine in the [Kingdom Come] trailer impressed me so much that I contacted the team to talk about what was going on under the hood […] Star Citizen doesn’t need peasants and knights… but it does need a robust character creation system for the persistent universe and that technology is exactly what Warhorse is building for the CryEngine." - Chris Roberts


History lesson time!
CIG's Frankfurt studio and the CryEngine techs only came on board on July 6 2015:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...mes-Opens-New-Development-Office-In-Frankfurt


JohnMice said:
These are the same germans that introduced the PG tech and allowed for the increased scope of Star Citizen.

The scope of the game was already being increased and a poll to further add stretch goals introduced on June 12 2014:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13944-Letter-From-The-Chairman-46-Million

"The additional funding continues to expand the scope of the game" - Chris Roberts


1. Scope was increased as of June 2014 and has been increasing since
2. The CryEngine techs in Frankfurt inherited CIG's modified version of Cry as of July 2015
3. Planetary landings and surface based features were announced in December 2016


As of August 2017 the planetary tech that the Frankfurt team has been working on has NOT been pulled into the PU/PTU (aka CIG's modified version of Cry)
The Senior Engine Programmer role in Frankfurt has been vacant since July 21 2017.

I said that it was groundbreaking in the context of it's utilization in a MMO setting.

It hasn't been shown in an MMO setting. Nothing shown in any of the videos produced by CIG since 2.6 has been shown in an MMO setting. They're standalone R&D tech. "They're all working pretty much full time on the procedural planets. We've still got to blend them into the game where they're working on the tech so just CONSIDER THAT when I answer any questions regarding it. I'm trying to represent it as best I can." - Sean Tracy May 2 2016
 
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I know I'm not the funniest guy at parties but...notice how that's not the proper rendering of a mirror at all? A proper rendering of a mirror should reflect (in 3d) things back from your point of view, while in that "groundbreaking" tech snippet, the viewports clearly display (in 2d) the point of view of a fixed virtual camera placed somewhere convenient for the demo. Trust me (or even better, trust Asp Explorer :p who seems to have his sources spot-on), you won't see high-definition, correctly rendered mirrors anytime soon, not to mention in those sorry remains of a CryEngine. The last game I know of who could correctly render a mirror at very high quality and fidelity of reflections was Duke Nukem 3D, and for very specific reasons you will easily find with 0.35 seconds of Google search.

I cant stop looking at the gif now ... When the player rotates to the left, so does the reflection .... the reflection should rotate to its right .... and what are those up on the wall ?? Are they screens or meant to be other mirrors ? Why do they show the same image ? What happens when you look up at a higher mirror ???? Thats right you see the ceiling .. not yourself !! not to mention that as you are further away from those it should not look the same as the closer mirror.
 
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I cant stop looking at the gif now ... When the player rotates to the left, so does the reflection .... the reflection should rotate to its right .... and what are those up on the wall ?? Are they screens or meant to be other mirrors ? Why do they show the same image ? What happens when you look up at a higher mirror ???? Thats right you see the ceiling .. not yourself !! not to mention that as you are further away from those it should not look the same as the closer mirror.

Its not a mirror. Its a monitor, so its working correct. If you watch the video you will see other monitors on the walls.
 
However, it is generally a good idea to develop game rules and mechanics before worrying too much about the highly polished assets :). SC is in danger of being a virtual theme park rather than a game.

Unfortunately, i think CR thinks if you build the assets the game will grow around them. And i can't be sure but i'm sure i heard something from CR which kind of hinted at this a year or two back... but maybe its just my imagination.
 
Unfortunately, i think CR thinks if you build the assets the game will grow around them. And i can't be sure but i'm sure i heard something from CR which kind of hinted at this a year or two back... but maybe its just my imagination.

If I remember correctly - that was said on more than one occasion - I'll try and find the linkywinks.

I've tried for about an hour - and simply put I'm giving up. I can only watch so much handwaving and Genuine Roberts beaming about fidelity.
 
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JohnMice

Banned
On the contrary, I think it was by far CIG's biggest mistake. They should have cut off all avenues for funding when they thought they had enough (at around $65M). It is impossible to manage a project when the budget keeps expanding, and it is impossible for CIG to be truly honest with the backers so long as future income depends on what they say.

That doesn't make much sense from a business point of view now does it? You don't stop people from giving you money if they are willing to.

Star Citizen business model rely's on crowdfunding, continuous backing and income as allowed them to develop things that otherwise wouldn't be possible and I think that the majority of their backers understands and embraces that. There's only one chance in making this. This is it. CIG is a one company game and Star Citizen is Chris Roberts only child.

However, it is generally a good idea to develop game rules and mechanics before worrying too much about the highly polished assets :). SC is in danger of being a virtual theme park rather than a game.

Usually designers think about gameplay, engineers program ways to make them feasible, Artists model the assets, sound guys do their thing etc.

When making huge games these things are usually done at the same time because the company's have the human resources to do it, and refactoring is due, any game development studio as scrapped work for some reason or another, it's part of it. The core design documents and game developing intentions in early stages are always bound to change, with or without polished assets.

For instance (pun*intended), Diablo was supposed to be a turn based game in it's original design doc. World of Warcraft cities were refactored many times over until they finally settled their designs. Titan mmorpg was refactored into Overwatch, and this is from what is considered one of the best and most quality demanding studios in the industry.

Game Development Is indeed an ongoing process with what seems a lot of "wasted time and money" but that it's necessary and inevitable when developing ground breaking stuff.

I'm glad that you have had fun in the game. You say you don't think it's bad, just an alpha, and not even a normal alpha where everything is 90% done and feature complete (sounds more like a beta to me :)). Given you linked to an article saying that games look like "complete ****" for 90% of their production, do you think that all the alphas to date have been "complete ****"? Do you foresee many years of "complete ****" to come? If so, you might have some sympathy for other people who are concerned about the huge amount of money going to a company with no released products, a musty, creaky pedigree, and only "complete ****" to show since the first alpha release over 3 years ago.

I'm not anti SC myself, and I would love for it to be a great game. I've seen a few glimmers. But I totally understand anyone who's written the game off entirely.

Also, reading that article, does it not strike you as odd that CIG did almost the exact opposite approach?

Well I have fun in what is available to test because I see it by what it already allows me to do on a technical point. The graphical detail, the attention to the small things, the huge seamless map with no loading screens, the ability to go inside ships, roam whenever I like with no restraints to a vehicle or absence of gravity.

The thing is that Star Citizen is as close to a real alpha that most people have tried, if you ask the backers of other crowdfunding ambitious games they will tell you their own horror stories of absolutely horrible performance, game breaking bugs, sync issues, lacking audio feedback and so on.

Whenever you see a "closed alpha" for any of the big game studios like EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard etc it's not really an alpha in the sense that they are still developing mechanics and deciding on heavy gameplay mechanics. They are mostly using that alpha to test their servers and gather some player feedback about map design/weapon balance through telemetry WHILE raising interest to their game.

I look at other games and their development to put things in perspective. For example, ESO took around 7 years to make. 7 years!
That was with an established studio funded by a private investor and a well known franchise with set lore and story arch's.
ESO is a cookie cutter fantasy mmo with a good effort into Storyline questing but that's about it in terms of gameplay.

Star Citizen, for me is a mmo with a much bigger scope and ambition and they are still doing Squadron 42 at the same time. This would be a monumental task to ANY top studio even more so for a company that 5 years ago only had a dozen of folks and no facilities to work on.

Star Citizen development method has to accommodate it's funding method, that means that what is shown has to look good even if it doesn't necessarily play's good right away. This also helps dealing with optimization along the way. If you just test stuff with low quality assets and focus solely on the gameplay you run the risk of when you try to "update" the graphics that your game takes a considerably performance hit, just as an example.
 
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Unfortunately, i think CR thinks if you build the assets the game will grow around them. And i can't be sure but i'm sure i heard something from CR which kind of hinted at this a year or two back... but maybe its just my imagination.

A lot of signs indicate that this is exactly the case. CRoberts seems to be obsessed with shiny visuals and montages. The most important thing is it "looks good". Released content is half-baked and sub-par and its hard to imagine that the current flight model will ever evolve into something that will rival other space simulators. Not without heavy refactoring and I dont see or hear anything about resources or efforts going in that direction. You can fly your ship, thats good enough, ship/flight feel be damned. Star Marine the very barebone FPS module was at best a first version to show the potential but I d expect balancing, new game modes, new weapons, new animations and mechanics etc etc to bring it up to speed and on par with existing FPS games. Only.....theres no indication that any of that is happening. Everything is on hold for netcode as if that would affect any of the mentioned things. AFAICS Star marine is a "done deal" same as the flight model. You can run and shoot, good enough.

In that regard the flight model as well as the FPS module give a much clearer and louder meaning to the term Minimal Viable Product. Not the content-rich and immersive world that people are dream of. no, the exact thing that the term actually means.....a most basic, barely complete "thing" that contains all major milestones but not the quality or fidelity that CRoberts preached to us from day 1.
 
...They have a great foundation imo. 64bit Large world map, FPS gameplay, Multicrew and EVA nailed out, only major thing left to integrated are the seamless planetary landings which are coming with 3.0 and then optimizing the network and overal performance. Rest is fleshing out the professions, adding AI and keep adding content.

Oh man, seriously, how can this be? After so much time and money all they have are foundations?! Really!?

Look, I'd be as happy as jam if 3.0 turns out to be good. As will pretty much everyone here - we're all space-game players/fans, so of course we all want another game to play.

But.

If the 'only' things left are: 'integrating' seamless landings - which we've never seen outside a 'demo' before; optimized network - an ongoing problem since forever; improving overall performance - well, let's get a semblance of a game working first shall we?; fleshing out professions - as in having some, along with all the necessary in-game mechanics to support them; adding AI - sounds very complex and likely to add a significant processing load..... .....well then I'd suggest they are a very long way off beta.

And does anyone know how CiG are approaching crime&punishment... I ask as 1.6million backers (ahem!) jammed into a 'single-mode on-line-only' tinsy-tiny space is a recipe for only one thing...

The thing is John, most of us here have seen so many eager and sincere evangelists come and go in this thread, but alas mere words can not convince, only deliverables. Deliverables from CiG, and better yet, those delivered to any semblance of a reasonable time-scale. And 'not good' would be a kind summary of their performance to date.

So, whilst I still hope SC arrives sometime and is decent, I'm not optimistic - ymmv.

p.s. ...oh, and what happened to SQ42? I thought 'grabber' had previously said sales of SQ42 would go to fund SC... despite previously saying they were fully funded... so is it SQ42 or SC that CiG are focussing on? Please no-one say it's the 'foundations' or 'tools' or 'building the team'...
 
Was having a chat on reddit with one of the fans there, and he explained how some of the mechanics are planned to work in relation to buying things.

Now, keep in mind, maybe they misunderstand something, and there is always the possibility (probability) that whatever is produced in the end is nothing like what is planned.

So, here is what i learned.

If you order a ship, it won't just magically appear. It will be constructed at a spaceport, and an NPC will deliver it to you. My first thought there is, that's griefers paradise. Go around blowing up ships before their owner even recieves them while being flown by a dumb NPC.

Ok, now, if you want a gun, it all depends if people have been doing the right stuff to ensure there are guns in stock, like creating components, fetching stuff, and delivering. Apparently NPCs will also partake in this activity. So, my thought here is, you go to buy a weapon for your ship, but nope, none there. Nobody has been doing the right missions, or they have all sold out, or the NPCs haven't kept up with demand.

From sounds of it, they want to do something like EvE, but even more so, because NPCs will do the same as players.

The person i was speaking to scoffed at the idea of magic inventories whereby there is always stuff in stock. To my mind, unless they can really ensure and motivate players to ensure there is always stuff if stock, there is going to be a whole lot of complaints about stuff not being in stock and having to go do missions and deliveries until you can generate the item for yourself.

We've all seen the complaints about the grind of Engineers in ED. But at least you can always buy the weapons you want (ok, with some shopping around, but hey, eddb.io takes care of that).

Imagine the same, but you can't even buy the weapon you want without a grind!

Is this another case of CIG focusing too much on the rule of cool? Or maybe they misunderstand something about how it is planned to work.... but if not, there is the question as to whether CIG can even do this. Seems like a hell of a lot of coding for questionable results.
 
p.s. ...oh, and what happened to SQ42? I thought 'grabber' had previously said sales of SQ42 would go to fund SC... despite previously saying they were fully funded... so is it SQ42 or SC that CiG are focussing on? Please no-one say it's the 'foundations' or 'tools' or 'building the team'...

They said sales of SQ42 would fund SC. Not sure how many people exist who don't already have backed for SQ42, so not sure where these additional funds will come from. But SQ42 needs a lot of the mechnics from SC to be finished. For all we know. Erin's side is already as complete as they can get, but waiting for tech from SC side to continue.

Basically SC has to reach a certain level of completeness before SQ42 can be finished.
 
So, here is what i learned.

If you order a ship, it won't just magically appear. It will be constructed at a spaceport, and an NPC will deliver it to you. My first thought there is, that's griefers paradise. Go around blowing up ships before their owner even recieves them while being flown by a dumb NPC.

I'd be very interested to know where they got all that from, don't remember seeing CIG saying anything of the sort.

I have a CR quote talking about how there'll be a server running a civilisation type simulation for NPCs and missions but nothing about resources & construction simulation.

It's shocking to me that folks are expecting this stuff, and use it to further lure in starry eyed gamers and kids.
 
I can't agree, CIG not only has one of the greatest game designers in Chris Roberts, Tony Zurovec, Sean Tracy(architects) etc but also great engineers across the several fields of game design with the will to push the boundaries of what can be done in gaming.

They had plans for a house but with the amount of funding they got they went for the skyscraper, that's why they went the extra effort of re-building their engine to accommodate said skyscraper.

They have a great foundation imo. 64bit Large world map, FPS gameplay, Multicrew and EVA nailed out, only major thing left to integrated are the seamless planetary landings which are coming with 3.0 and then optimizing the network and overal performance. Rest is fleshing out the professions, adding AI and keep adding content.

Please check out this list...
https://cloudimperiumgames.com/jobs

Check out how many senior positions are missing...
Check out how many ENGINEERING positions are open in germany.
Now look since WHEN they are searching...

The entire seniorstaff in germany jumped ship, in 21. July

Maybe i just dont know enough about game development but this is for me the aforementioned lack of architects.
 
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We really should see something of SQ42 soon. It's been in-the-making for literally years, and like a fine cheese or wine, it's been left to mature quietly in a dark, cool corner and quietly forgotten about.

I just hope that when the crate is eventually opened, and the cobwebs brushed off, we're not left with a bottle of Tesco Value White and a slice of plastic cheese.
 
They had plans for a house but with the amount of funding they got they went for the skyscraper, that's why they went the extra effort of re-building their engine to accommodate said skyscraper.

That's not how it works, sorry.
 

61 vacant positions. That's a lot.

Either people are leaving or they have recently received a massive investment. It dosen't look like normal staff turnover to me.

I like working at CIG because I get to make spaceships fly without risking people's lives (hopefully) or possibly damaging billions of dollars’ worth of hardware. John Pritchett, Senior Physics Engineer

I hope that the bracketed "hopefully" was a tongue in cheek joke, and not a dig at taking all of a backers money ;)
 
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