Starting To Seriously Lose Faith

[Frenotx]

I know this is a somewhat pointless thread, but guess I'm just feeling like getting it off my chest: I'm starting to seriously lose faith in FDev's ability to capitalize on this game's potential. 3.0 had a lot of good changes, but every patch just makes me suspect more and more that FDev doesn't understand what makes the good parts of their game good, how people play their game, or generally how to make a fun game. It almost feels like one person / team designed the first part of the game, then handed it off to a completely different set of people- people that fail to realize what made that original stuff good. Makes me think of the Miata NC model: people loved the NA and NB models for their agility, simplicity, and fantastic road feel. When Mazda made the NC model, they made the car a good bit bigger, a good bit heavier, and a hell of a lot nicer inside. By itself it's not necessarily a bad car, but focused on entirely the wrong things. It was not terribly popular because it sacrificed the things that made a Miata a Miata. It lost its soul, and instead became a mediocre example of an already-heavily-populate "niche". And none of this is even touching on FDev's apparent difficulties with QC and testing.

I realize a lot of you are thinking, "Who the hell are you, and why on Earth should I care what you think?" I''m just another player, but I am a devout fan of the Elite series. I've played countless hours since the beta, and spent far more hours thinking about the game / experimenting with different mechanics, trying some come up with suggestions to various challenges, and generally trying to improve the game. It could be because I'm struggling with depression right now (or it honestly could be a contributing factor to said depression), it's "kind of a big deal" for someone's opinion to shift as dramatically as mine has. I don't really know what I expect as far as replies to this thread go, but... I guess I just hope to have my mind changed in the future. I want to have hope again. I want to believe FDev will make this game as great as it can be. I want my optimism back.


Edit: For the sake of having a little more idea of what I'm talking about, here are some snippets from a post of mine later in the thread:

Spoiler

We have since talked about this in-game, but for the benefit of those not privy to that conversation I'll give some examples:

1. The flight model
   • The flight model is something I believe FDev did very "right" in a lot of ways at the start. They intentionally made yaw significantly weaker than pitch, caped the max speed, kept weapon ranges short, kept pitch rates fairly low, and made boosting a powerful tool that required good timing to use well. And then of course there's the whole blue zone mechanic: You can have either high rotation or high (or low) speed. Not both. Was it "realistic"? Not in the slightest. It made no attempt to be, thgouh. The whole point was to be fun. It was set up that way to lead to exciting, cinematic dog fights and chase scenes. Getting on someone's tail meant something. Speed control was important. mis-timinng your boost and overshooting your target was a problem. There was an adamant and explicit desire to avoid "turrets in space", and boring / simple high-speed jousting. Braben tried a more realistic approach in earlier games and found it to be, though realistic, not very fun.
   • Now let's look at the new chieftain: it can be pretty fun to fly and is quite capable, but it is the epitomizes FDev losing their way from what made the flight model and combat fun and unique. Its pitch rate is extremely high- way higher than its maneuvering thrusters can keep up with. It barely cares about the blue zone at all; its pitch rate remains very high regardless of speed. If someone gets on your tail, it doesn't matter in the slightest- you will be be able to flip over and face them again far faster than they have any hope of avoiding. Doesn't matter if you're at full speed or stopped. It can basically perma-boost out of the box too, so timing your boost doesn't matter. It was billed as being able to take and avoid damage, but it's still-quite-weak lateral thrusters limit its ability to control its position; you're just kinda along for the ride. No what it is good at? Always facing the enemy, not having to worry about positioning, and jousting.
   • Look at the changes they've made to the FDL: it leads to a similar outcome. With engineering, it can boost constantly (making boost timing and blue zone / speed control mean little), pitch over far faster that anything could dream of avoiding, and is great at high-speed jousting. Again, that thing the flight model was explicitly designed to avoid.
   • Just giving a ship MOAR PITCH SPEED is not a good way to make it "a combat ship". All this pitch speed inflation (often with completely ignoring good acceleration too) has done is cheapen the flight model and make combat less engaging. The chieftain demostrates that FDev doesn't understand this AT ALL, and has no intent to address it.
2. Unknown Signal Sources
   • These things have pretty much always been kinda lame. Consider how they work: they just randomly spawn a fixed "time" away from you. Doesn't matter if you're going fast or slow, they always spawn about the relative distance away from you. There's 0 gameplay in finding them- you just wait for them to show up. They were originally added to make supercruise a little more interesting, but since a player had no idea what would be in them before inturrupting whatever it was they were doing to check, they just weren't a very effective diversion.
   • FDev then made different kinds of USSs. Still no game play in finding them, just waiting for them to show up. Since you still have to inturrupt what you're doing at point at them to figure out what they are though (and many times are pointless to enter / have no game play). Adding more fluff, but still no game play.
   • FDev then added engineers, and added a bunch of important materials to the USSs. Still didn't add any gameplay. All they did was make it so players were required to fiddle with the mechanic (to fully play the game) instead of addressing the actual problem: no gameplay in the mechanic / the mechanic isn't fun.
3. Engineers
   • Engineering in its original form was frustrating. Part of that was because it could take so many rolls to get really good stuff, but the main reason that was a problem is because mat gathering and messing with the engineers IS A CHORE. So much of it is just waiting for RNG to give you what you want, or pressing the, "engineer it" button. That's not game play. Not only does it take you away from whatever you actually enjoy doing in the game, but its tedious, not fun, and not even really a game. A big part of 3.0 was fixing the engineers. It did a good job of making it worlds better, but let's consider its big focus: you don't have to make as many rolls. That's right: Their solution to fixing the engineers was to MAKE IT SO YOU HAVE TO DO IT LESS. That doesn't make it fun, interesting, or engaging. That just makes you have to do the boring waiting-for-RNGesus-to-bless me tedious garbage less. Improvement? Certainly. Actually fixing the real problem? Not even close. FDev seems to think this is fine.
   • One of the things I've always loved about Elite: Dangerous is that you're not special. You're not a super hero. You're not the "main character." You're not trying to save the galaxy. You're just another guy, living their regular schmo life in a cool space-age world. The engineers threw that out the window. Now your ship is hugely better than everyone else's (the NPCs). You "bounty hunt" by massacaring wave after wave of vastly superiour "pirates". Regular ships are a joke compared to player ships. 3.0 Had the chance to address this, but instead doubled-down on the problem and made engineering even more powerful. Soul of the game be damned, if players want super ships then lets give them super ships.
4. Mega ships
   • FDev added mega ships which were cool, but then added no game play to them. They were essentially just a centerpiece on the table.
   • In 3.0 FDev added some stuff do do at them, but let's consider what it is: Point your ship at it, press and hold a button, and wait to be told what to do next. I want to do what the scanner is doing, not just wait for it to be done. Shoot a limpet at a thing, and wait for it to hack and give you a reward. I want to do the actual hacking, not just wait for an automated thing to do it for me. Shoot a different automated limpet at a different stationary thing, and receive cargo. More boring waiting for something to do the interesting thing for me, and what do I get for it? Cargo worth very little, nowhere near making the entire endeavor worth the effort.

All in all, it's like a movie where someone guy tells you about some exciting action scene. I don't want to hear a description of a cool scene in a movie- I want to see it. Alternatively, it's like an action game where you move your character around, but every fight goes into a cut scene of your character beating down the enemy with a bunch of cool moves. I don't want to watch the character do a bunch of cool fun stuff- I want to actually do it. FDev doesn't seem to get this concept.

• Engineers: clearly huge step forward (all this is imo... ). I had not issue with old implementation but this new one I like. Have newly engineered 1 ship and slowly here and there improve others.
  • Did not fix the core flaws- all it did was make us have to engage with the engineering system less. Engineering is still hugely powerful. Mat gathering is still a chore that takes us away from what we enjoy doing. Actually "engineering" out equipment is still just pressing a button and letting the game do the interesting actually-engineering stuff for us
• Crime: there still are some flaws, but now player finally need to start think if go legal or illegal way and this latter HAVE consequences (lovely stuff)
  • The crime system is a step in the right direction. Crime now has consequences. Not a huge fan of the consequences just being inconveniences, but it's something. Still not a whole lot gameplay wise to make a criminal actually feel like a criminal. Still not a lot of reason to commit crime. THere's not a lot of, "being a criminal pays way better than being clean, but comes with it's own challenges and largely increased risk" sort of quandary. But it's something.
• Ships: can only wish there is more new ships added. Chieftain is joy to fly.
  • I addressed this above, but I'll reiterate: The chieftain is pretty fun to fly, but cheapens combat and makes most of the interesting and unique elements of Elite's flight model pointless. It is the epitome of FDev losing their way and failing to remember / realize what made their flight model fun and interesting in the first place.
• Micromaterials: surface harvesting works perfect and new (very nice) planet look is rly cool. Cant wait what will bring Q4.
  • Planets are cooler looking. This was largely them fixing a bug they caused ages ago, but it's nice. Didn't add any game play, though. It's not easier to figure out what materials are available on a planet. No game play there though, either. You either just look at the system map and read the info, or hit the planet with a DDS if the info isn't available. The scanning is still just waiting for the scanner to do the work for you. Prospecting the planet is still just driving around until you happen across the thing you need. There is no hunting for it. No player agency. No mapping the planet and analyzing a heat map to figure out the most likely spot for your desired material to be. Just aimless driving hoping it randomly spawns. Another thing FDev made less painless, but didn't actually fix the real problem: no game play.
• QoL: there are many small things added here and there ... still finding new things on each play session.
  • No argument here. There were a lot of nice little touches and bug fixes. I'm a fan of the contacts black list. Not really "major patch" worthy on their own, but welcome none the less.
• Graphic improvement/hardware needs ... Q1 works better and looks better as 2.4 win/win in my eyes.
  • Always a nice thing. I haven't noticed that, but I'm sure FDev is constantly working on making their engine run smoother and look better. Doens't affect game play, but is nice.
• Galnet audio: nice step forward, but imo there is still much which can be improved.
  • Agreed. Good stuff. Makes the world feel more alive. A lot they could do with this. Good first step.
• connection: yes, Im sure many can complain all day long how bad it still is, but I can clearly see how hugely it improved during these 3 years I play. Last evening I invited my friend from US (me in Europe) into multicrew and we had rly nice time with visiting thargoid and explore little on my way to Palin.
  • Certainly good to hear. FDev definitely has been working hard on improving things from a technical stand point. Important, but doesn't actually change anything from a gameplay perspective. I haven't head many people say, "This game was not very exciting, but it never crashed a single time so I had a blast.". Stability is just sort of an expected thing.

 

[crushdepth]

Huge potential remains unrealised because of endless fascination with "everything RNG" and recycled 1990s game mechanics.

Carry A to B 4 reward. Kill X goblins 4 reward. Crafting. And advertising standard game features like avatars as major updates (let's call it "The Commanders" and drape marketing bling all over it).

The galaxy is amazing, the ships are good. I keep telling myself that it's going to kick into high gear with epic thargoid invasions any minute now, but nope. The rest is just bad.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

There's a lot of things wrong with this game, but there are also a lot of things right with it.

Biggest problem is that Frontier don't really seem to understand what players enjoy about the game, or how they actually play it. But that is starting to change, and season 3 is attempting to fix it.

There's a lot of good stuff coming this year, hopefully it will be worth the wait.

Main thing for the meantime is for Frontier to get a grip on the broken and poorly implemented game mechanics.

 

[krylite]

Sorry to hear about the depression. I'd think I'd understand the feeling. Maybe you just need a break from the game. Here's a screenshot to help cheer up and keep faith. Notice how back in the 1984 manual they even had ideas of what would become the minor factions and bgs of today. Amazing game ED is and all the work they do and continue to do to improve it.

Spoiler

 

[MottiKhan]

There's nothing wrong with venting your frustration. I also have some frustrations with the game, but a larger measure of hope.

3.0 is new and FD are making an effort. While I might do a bit of venting myself here and there, I'm trying to hold onto that hope that springs finitely.

I think the good in 3.0 outweighs the bad and that things will get better after a few balance passes. This is only Chapter 1. Time will tell if the book itself becomes a classic.

 

[Ziljan]

Hey Frenotx, first let me say, I'm sorry that you're feeling depressed. I know that feel. I think it may be coloring your view of the game, in particular because your posts are usually filled with exquisite details and figures. This one is more of a general feeling. Maybe it would help if you gave some concrete examples of what you mean by good elements and what parts in particular do you think are having the "soul" of the game hollowed out?

 

[fsdraconis]

Some of the biggest disparities in game design happen because none of the developer's actually play the game like the average customer actually does.

By this, I mean literally starting out with zero knowledge of the best ways to do things in the game. No one was paid to sit down and 'work' at the game to test and balance it out through actual player experience. They just enter in a dev mode, add credits, clear states and briefly test in 10 minutes how x applies to situation y.

Bugs happen, especially during grand arching changes such as crime and punishment.

Consider that the beta was an open beta. They knew they needed more testing numbers than they have sold beta access. But most people only tested the things they were directly interested in. Like me, I focused on engineering and the Alliance Chieftain. I don't do pvp so I didn't think much was going to change versus npc's. Look how wrong I was.

Frontier will need at least a month. Maybe longer because they didn't get enough bugs fixed from the beta. They spent 2 weeks fixing bugs before releasing the patch. They still have to get the updates to the kill warrant scanner in. The whole C&P system is still horribly unbalanced versus the crime.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Oh nice, an other thread about something that doesn't get explained, but the lack of it is absolutely terrible.

Sure. Bad FDev, they don't understand what makes a game good and what players enjoy. The commenters obviously don't know it either, but that doesn't matter - apparently.

 

[znôrt]

i'm in the same boat, just lost faith much sooner. maybe my expectations were different, maybe i'm not that faithful a person, but like you i was really invested in the game. at some point after years of several crazy turns (i'll spare you the details) i simply had to admit to myself that the direction the game had taken was never going to meet my expectations, but just drift further away.

i can just say it's not the end of the world, nor of elite for me. it can even be a relief. i don't have to pull my hair out in despair anymore each new release because i more or less know what's in store and have come to terms with that. i can even make fun of it! it's just a shift of perspective, an adjustment of expectations. i don't think mine were unreasonable but now i simply have none, or very little. i take what i like, and there is much to like and enjoy in the game anyway. i don't think it will ever be the great game envisioned, but it's a good enough something already. as a side effect, i play much less, i take long breaks, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing at all.

i don't know how you could get your optimism back, i actually don't think you should. i'd rather come to terms with what there is, and keep going. and some time off.

 

[Maka Gucci]

I'm sure many can relate, mate.

Darty has that signature:
"People like the game. Its unique, and has achieved some great things. But sooner or later you realise how much better it could have been. And then out of love for the game, you complain on the forums in the vain hope that it might one day be more than what it is." -JonSnowman

.. and this morning I had pretty big vent on our player slack, over being 2k hrs in and still having to scrape together a Cutter rebuy.. Progress can feel so stagnant unless you can pour hours a night into the game, which can be disheartening.
But more to your point, the total lack of acknowledgement or direction from the dev team when it comes to many of the issues is probably the most disheartening.

I think 3.0 has brought with it some great changes and I really look forward to what's to come, but I always have this feeling that whatever gets added will be a good idea with a somewhat half assessed implementation that gets dropped and rarely spoken of after release, just watch Sandros demeanour when PP, or CQC get brought up.

Many aspects of the game seem stolen from a f2p model, and yet there are no fast unlocks. Is it an MMO, is it more of a single player experience with multiplayer elements? I'm not sure the game knows exactly what it is, or what it's trying to be and I'm sure that makes design even harder.

Most seem to feel there is a great game here that could be so much better with some little changes and focus in the right areas. This has been said about many a game on many a forum but I don't think it's ever been as true as when it comes to Elite.

 

[Tel Prydain]

I think 3.0 shows FDev are serious about going back and refining the game, and it's the most excited I've been about the game since GPP.
Here's hoping that 3.4 offers something to get you excited again.

 

[GJ51]

Don't feel bad OP - I think most of the players who've been around a few years have gone through a similar "evolution" about FD and it's approach.

I've just gotten to the point of accepting what is, instead of wasting energy focusing on the negatives. For example, the raised storage limits are a big plus for me and I actually feel like I'm not wasting time micromanaging inventory. So there's a huge positive I've been waiting for a long time that's finally implemented. I pretty much just ignore the dumb stuff as it usually tends to get fixed, modified, or just fall away in importance over time.

I guess I've just pretty much learned to laugh at the FD follies rather than getting upset about them.

ED is still best in genre, so unless you're so turned off you want to play something different, ED is pretty much the only game in town for now.

As other posters have noticed, it's apparent that you've invested a great deal of time doing a lot of great analysis work that we've all benefited from. Perhaps it's given you a sense that somehow the game owes you a bit more than some of the classic dumb FD decisions and or sloppy bugs that continue to plague each release. I know I'd tend toward those kind of feelings and frustrations if I felt like I was doing better work and making a lot of detailed contributions when the developers seem to not display the same intensity and passion for getting the details right.

That said, we don't know what they go through on a daily basis. I'm sure they are hard working and well-intentioned, but there still seems to be something missing in overall design and execution quality. Be that as it may, ED is still a remarkable achievement and great fun.

Look at where things have come from. Looking back on what we started with to where we are now, there's a lot to be grateful for. Accept it as it is and focus on the positives. Progression my be slow for some, but it has steadily improved.

HTH

EDIT: You have to wonder sometimes...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...y-generated-content-isn-t-working-out-for-you

 

[sb413197]

I feel that the game is approaching its capacity. It's not a matter of lack of faith. With every change, 10 times more stuff breaks. The game is getting too complex and unwieldy.

I'm gonna say it. I think in another year it may be time for the next Elite game, after Elite dangerous. It can have planetary stuff, space legs, and so on - and build off where this season of ED finishes. But this construct is groaning under the weight.

 

[Mr_Foxhound]

I think 3.0 shows FDev are serious about going back and refining the game, and it's the most excited I've been about the game since GPP.
Here's hoping that 3.4 offers something to get you excited again.

[h=1]All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again[/h]

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

It almost feels like one person / team designed the first part of the game, then handed it off to a completely different set of people- people that fail to realize what made that original stuff good.

I remember posting the exact same thought. The ships and universe are really great. But the missions and game mechanics are like a bad free-to-play MMO. It does feel like two completely different companies.

Did FDev outsource the creation of the engines and ships?

The USS system for example is terrible and has been there forever. It should be that USS show up on a panel. You should see a distress call or signs of wreckage radiation on your panel and decide if you want to investigate. There should be hundreds of potential scenarios in the USS. But the way it works is they fly by so fast you don't have time or the information to take a look. And if you do investigate there's no variety or worthwhile reward for taking the time.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Personally, I don't actually care if Frontier ever makes this the game you want to play - I happen to like it, warts and all. I know they're working on things, trying to make it the best they can, to realize their vision of what Elite was intended to be. We've seen they do hear what we have to say - the increased module storage demonstrates that. So I'm here for the long haul, where ever this long, strange trip leads. And keeping it in perspective, it is still just a game. If it stops being fun, I have plenty of other games to play - and I do when I need to take a break, but I keep coming back. So relax, enjoy the ride. Sure, it may not take you where you where you want to go when you want to go there, but odds are it will get you there eventually.

And if it doesn't, well, I can't help that, so I'm not going to try.

 

[GJ51]

I feel that the game is approaching its capacity. It's not a matter of lack of faith. With every change, 10 times more stuff breaks. The game is getting too complex and unwieldy.

I'm gonna say it. I think in another year it may be time for the next Elite game, after Elite dangerous. It can have planetary stuff, space legs, and so on - and build off where this season of ED finishes. But this construct is groaning under the weight.

I sometimes get similar feelings - that the programming and design isn't well structured and modular enough for the dev team to fully understand the numerous unintended consequences and bugs that creep in - oftentimes bugs that had been previously fixed.

But players do put pressure on the dev team for new material, so it looks a lot like they try to push aggressive roll outs early and then do the cleanup afterward. It's easy to be critical, but I'm sure they face pressures we don't understand.

I'm more familiar with mission critical systems development that can't tolerate serious flaws, so I come from a different world than gaming, but in every development environment there's more and more time pressure and fewer and fewer resources of well qualified people who really know their stuff. For every dev who "just gets the job done" there's a dozen more that want to explain to you why what they're working on is stalled.

The really good operations are the ones that run lean and don't hire the "explainers" but those are far and few between.

 

[crushdepth]

[h=1]All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again[/h]

You're probably right. But it doesn't *have to be this way*.

The thing that triggered me was that video of Braben talking about grind in games, and saying literally " the kids will do it". Ok maybe they will, but is that a good approach to game design?

For me it explains so much about why things are the way they are.

 

[Sweet&Dandy]

OP... I will hold off on the fact that you haven't actually said very much of anything specific regarding faults / suggestions in your post, and if I were a Dev I'd likely not find it particularly useful.

I've been around here since day one and I don't even dare to look at how many hours I've logged! I've been through times where I wondered where the game was going... back in the day it seemed like a sim. Then consoles got added and it seemed to shift to cater for a more pew pew style audience (no criticism intended), but failed to really deliver what a modern generation expect of a game (I'm old).

We had things like power play which satisfied the board game enthusiasts amongst us (not me) but again wasn't done as well as it could've been.

CQC was a great idea that was poorly implemented and multi crew lacks so much depth that it feels like they actually don't care much about it over in Cambridge. It is a mechanic, not a finished product. The saddest remark I ever heard was that they won't add to it if it isn't very popular to start with! Build a half completed mechanic then abandon it because no one likes it is a strange way to implement new features! Anyway...

I could go on ... over the four years there have been so many blunders from Frontier because they over extended in so many directions without doing any of it to AAA game standards. It's a shame but it's true. (In my not so humble opinion)

So why I am still here? One thing they got spectacularly right from day one-

VR baby!

As much as I loved playing Elite growing up, Elite dangerous wouldn't have kept my attention for more than a few months without VR. I can't overstate this enough! I tried recently to play back again in 2D and there was just no way it was going to hold my interest after playing in VR.

When they first released the Alpha it came with immediate DK1 support and I've watched the game develop alongside the technology happily over the course of DK2, Vive and CV1. The experience never gets old! I fly a ship through space! Simple. It's enough. It's been enough since Alpha with only a handful of systems and features. For me everything since Alpha has been a case of ... uh more stuff, great! If I liked it cool, if not, well who cares - I'm still flying a spaceship!

I guess my point is that VR IS the game for me and ED is still the sim that I always wanted. Anything else is just a bonus

 

[Mengy]

For the past year I felt like you do now Frenotx. I lost my optimism for Elite, I stopped playing for the most part, but I was waiting to see if Frontier would turn it around in time. 3.0 was the first update in over a year which really made me feel great about the game's future. I'm having fun once again with Elite.

I will be honest though, the Q4 update for 2018 is a big deal for me. Particularly the exploration improvements. If Frontier ends up dropping the ball with it then it will not bode well for my future with the game. I've waited four years for exploration to get some development attention, I won't be waiting a fifth year. I do believe they are taking the matter seriously though and I have high hopes they will finally deliver what I've been waiting so long for. I'm optimistic again.

Hope your outlook turns around too Frenotx.