Starting To Seriously Lose Faith

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Biggest problem is that Frontier don't really seem to understand what players enjoy about the game, or how they actually play it. But that is starting to change, and season 3 is attempting to fix it.

I think it is a bit overreaching statement. 'How they actually play it' is a bit mixed bag really. For example people ignoring Crime and Punishment when trigger happy and discovering harsh problems with new system is issue, but it isn't exactly issue with the game - it is 'how they actually play it' that has been a bit screwed up so far.

People rushing to perceived end game content is similar. It is saddening and funny in same time reading people discovering Cobra after flying Anaconda for most of time. Or discovering all small things in game.

It is not like we should ask or question dev decisions. But sometimes we should question and ask ourselves what we do wrong and why we have no fun. There's no binary answer. Also I don't there's major guilty force here that will make things right. It is all dialog, talking, discovering how to move forward by ourselves.

As for 3.0...I love it. There are bugs, issues, those will get fixed but overall I don't know, it feels very good. As for next updates I can't wait for all improvements to exploration and mining.

 

[Bounder]

Wow. This post got a hell of a lot more attention than I had anticipate. Really with I didn't have a typo in the title, now. XD I can't really address everyone without writing a book, so I've cherry picked a few that especially stood out.



We have since talked about this in-game, but for the benefit of those not privy to that conversation I'll give some examples:

1. The flight model
   • The flight model is something I believe FDev did very "right" in a lot of ways at the start. They intentionally made yaw significantly weaker than pitch, caped the max speed, kept weapon ranges short, kept pitch rates fairly low, and made boosting a powerful tool that required good timing to use well. And then of course there's the whole blue zone mechanic: You can have either high rotation or high (or low) speed. Not both. Was it "realistic"? Not in the slightest. It made no attempt to be, thgouh. The whole point was to be fun. It was set up that way to lead to exciting, cinematic dog fights and chase scenes. Getting on someone's tail meant something. Speed control was important. mis-timinng your boost and overshooting your target was a problem. There was an adamant and explicit desire to avoid "turrets in space", and boring / simple high-speed jousting. Braben tried a more realistic approach in earlier games and found it to be, though realistic, not very fun.

1. 
   
   It was done in an attempt to inject any dynamism at all into a speed-restricted networking model, which pits in-game velocity against network latency, instead of using it to advantage. FE2 & FFE offer vastly more fun and engagement, precisely because of the freedom of movement, and not in spite of it. All the hotshots who got stuck in jousts were using the wrong flight assist mode, with their engines at full thwack trying to accelerate them to interplanetary speeds in whatever direction they aimed the nose, while trying to dogfight.
   
   The sad fact is that space speed limits rip the heart and soul out of Elite; combat is reduced to a pitiful 1-on-1 slow-pitching contest, and any kind of fun interaction with massive bodies is precluded outright in "normal space".
   
   Dogfighting, especially, though, is just way, way better in FE2/FFE.
   
   Proof:
   
   Spoiler

   [video=youtube;igfDFBPLe-4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igfDFBPLe-4[/video]
   
   ED's so-called "flight model" is utter pants in comparison, and totally unplayable to me and other fans of the series.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Some of the biggest disparities in game design happen because none of the developer's actually play the game like the average customer actually does.

By this, I mean literally starting out with zero knowledge of the best ways to do things in the game. No one was paid to sit down and 'work' at the game to test and balance it out through actual player experience. They just enter in a dev mode, add credits, clear states and briefly test in 10 minutes how x applies to situation y.

This, I say this since a long time, because these things are extremely obvious. Devs need to play their damn game a lot more like their customers do, at least some of them need to get paid for this. Or they need to listen a LOT more to their playerbase. Otherwise you develop a game past what your customers want. But relying only on the second is tough because many customers want many different things.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It was done in an attempt to inject any dynamism at all into a speed-restricted networking model, which pits in-game velocity against network latency, instead of using it to advantage. FE2 & FFE offer vastly more fun and engagement, precisely because of the freedom of movement, and not in spite of it. All the hotshots who got stuck in jousts were using the wrong flight assist mode, with their engines at full thwack trying to accelerate them to interplanetary speeds in whatever direction they aimed the nose, while trying to dogfight.

The sad fact is that space speed limits rip the heart and soul out of Elite; combat is reduced to a pitiful 1-on-1 slow-pitching contest, and any kind of fun interaction with massive bodies is precluded outright in "normal space".

Dogfighting, especially, though, is just way, way better in FE2/FFE.

Proof:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igfDFBPLe-4

ED's so-called "flight model" is utter pants in comparison, and totally unplayable to me and other fans of the series.

That is a matter of opinion.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I don't think the flight model is "good". It is "good" in the context of MP, maybe. However, I can live with it. I'm open to compromise. I compromise on many things in the game, but there is a line and that line was crossed by trying to force me into that stupid engineer yoke.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

ED's so-called "flight model" is utter pants in comparison, and totally unplayable to me and other fans of the series.

I loved FFE. But I like ED model much better. To be fair, I think that discussion has been settled long time ago that there will be people who will think one way or another. If ED combat model wouldn't work, we wouldn't have ED. It is as basic fact as it is.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I don't think the flight model is "good". It is "good" in the context of MP, maybe. However, I can live with it. I'm open to compromise. I compromise on many things in the game, but there is a line and that line was crossed by trying to force me into that stupid engineer yoke.

Nobody is forcing you. I only engineer stuff when I want to and when I have the required parts which is rare because I don't grind for them. It isn't required. But they can be useful. Also getting grade 1,2 and 3 engineered mods is extremely easy. The only real issue is opening some of the engineers up. Like the mining one and getting rares, but at least you can do those in bits and pieces and no need to do them all in one go.

Basically engage in the engineers at your own pace or not at all. The game is still viable to play unless you are only interested in PvP encounters. Then you are stuck.

 

[NeilF]

I know this is a somewhat pointless thread, but guess I'm just feeling like getting it off my chest: I'm starting to seriously lose faith in FDev's ability to capitalize on this game's potential. 3.0 had a lot of good changes, but every patch just makes me suspect more and more that FDev doesn't understand what makes the good parts of their game good, how people play their game, or generally how to make a fun game. It almost feels like one person / team designed the first part of the game, then handed it off to a completely different set of people- people that fail to realize what made that original stuff good. Makes me think of the Miata NC model: people loved the NA and NB models for their agility, simplicity, and fantastic road feel. When Mazda made the NC model, they made the car a good bit bigger, a good bit heavier, and a hell of a lot nicer inside. By itself it's not necessarily a bad car, but focused on entirely the wrong things. It was not terribly popular because it sacrificed the things that made a Miata a Miata. It lost its soul, and instead became a mediocre example of an already-heavily-populate "niche". And none of this is even touching on FDev's apparent difficulties with QC and testing.

I realize a lot of you are thinking, "Who the hell are you, and why on Earth should I care what you think?" I''m just another player, but I am a devout fan of the Elite series. I've played countless hours since the beta, and spent far more hours thinking about the game / experimenting with different mechanics, trying some come up with suggestions to various challenges, and generally trying to improve the game. It could be because I'm struggling with depression right now (or it honestly could be a contributing factor to said depression), it's "kind of a big deal" for someone's opinion to shift as dramatically as mine has. I don't really know what I expect as far as replies to this thread go, but... I guess I just hope to have my mind changed in the future. I want to have hope again. I want to believe FDev will make this game as great as it can be. I want my optimism back.


Edit: For the sake of having a little more idea of what I'm talking about, here are some snippets from a post of mine later in the thread:

For me, there's just been too many dead end bolt ons, with little/no attempt to add mechanics with depth. Consider Thargoid Bases, Guardian Bases, CQC, Generation Ships, Multicrew etc. Consider how much development time went into these, and how much time you've spent involved in them? When's the last time you went to a Generation Ship to point and click at it?

Meanwhile, after years of build up, we're finally in the exciting time of an actual alien invasion. FD have had years to line up the gameplay ready for this event. So I find it rather concerning there's been development time available with the kind of dead-end mini-game mechanics listed above, while all we can seemingly do to interact and affect this alien invasion is to carry X to Y to repair stations after invisible Thargoid Thursday morning attacks.

I think we even know that we're not even taking part in a "game" as regards this alien invasion, but simply going along with a cut scene. ie: We can't fight against or affect a simulation of an attack. Just witness the outcomes as someone at a desk at FD flicks a switch to mark a station as damaged. eg: Why isn't the Thargoid invasion depicted as a Powerplay view within which we can undertake more involved and interesting tasks to try and effect it? ie: Like we're actually competing and taking part with a game against some mechanics?

I started giving up hope with ED about two years ago, and Season 2 did very little to address this. Planetary landings were truly impressive, but little else really made much of an impression of me.

As I've said elsewhere, Q4 of this year I see as make or break for me. With a clean slate to design and develope what FD are proclaiming improvements to the core gameplay of Exploration and Mining, along with a payable DLC (atmospheric landings?), we'll get to see if FD are changing their ethos to introduce some really interesting deeper mechanics and gameplay. Or if we're just in for more bolt on shallow mini-game designs.

 

[Avago Earo]

It could be because I'm struggling with depression right now

This is actually a possibility. I bit the bullet very recently and accepted treatment (I was afraid of antidepressants and didn't really give them a chance before). The medication started taking affect four days ago. I've been playing Elite regularly since and really enjoying it. All the points you made are valid, I think, but maybe your mood/state of mind makes these game issues stand out more. I've heard other people talking about a cloud starting to lift, or a weight being taken off and it does seem that way to me.

I've no idea if this helps. Definitely see someone about it, if you haven't already.

 

[DoppelGanger]

Wow. This post got a hell of a lot more attention than I had anticipate. Really with I didn't have a typo in the title, now. XD I can't really address everyone without writing a book, so I've cherry picked a few that especially stood out.

We have since talked about this in-game, but for the benefit of those not privy to that conversation I'll give some examples:
....

Another seal of approval from my side, agreed with everything what Frenotx said. There are things where Frontier did a great job of course, but to reiterate and emphasize the point that development focus should be to include game mechanics that involves some kind of player interaction with the world, like for example scanner functions while exploring planets to find the hotspots for needed materials (maybe take ideas from other games , like Mass Effect or Subnautica? its fine ).

The aimless mechanics like USS, waiting for materials points to spawn when driving in SRV, hoping for that one mission with reward to spawn in the board, these are all aimless endeavours, especially when the player knows its all RNG, its not even hidden behind a mechanic that disguises it.

I think FD should take examples from other games if they are unsure what to do, and use them. I would much rather use a solid/proved to be fun mechanic, rather than some innovative stuff where it's extremelly uninspired and frustrating.

 

[Pyrotiger]

I agree with a fair bit OP says. It's like FD don't understand what they have, sometimes.

I'm fighting the DP at the moment too. Good luck with your battle.

 

[Maka Gucci]

eg: Why isn't the Thargoid invasion depicted as a Powerplay view within which we can undertake more involved and interesting tasks to try and effect it? ie: Like we're actually competing and taking part with a game against some mechanics?

This would have been very cool.

 

[Muetdhiver]

This would have been very cool.

Encapsulate my feelings about most features introduced since 1.0.

As usual Frenotx delivers a clear and well made piece with an even better follow up.
Read up FD. This as processed, packaged and thought over point by point constructive
criticism you'll ever get. Ignore at your own risk.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I know this is a somewhat pointless thread, but guess I'm just feeling like getting it off my chest: I'm starting to seriously lose faith in FDev's ability to capitalize on this game's potential. 3.0 had a lot of good changes, but every patch just makes me suspect more and more that FDev doesn't understand what makes the good parts of their game good, how people play their game, or generally how to make a fun game. It almost feels like one person / team designed the first part of the game, then handed it off to a completely different set of people- people that fail to realize what made that original stuff good. Makes me think of the Miata NC model: people loved the NA and NB models for their agility, simplicity, and fantastic road feel. When Mazda made the NC model, they made the car a good bit bigger, a good bit heavier, and a hell of a lot nicer inside. By itself it's not necessarily a bad car, but focused on entirely the wrong things. It was not terribly popular because it sacrificed the things that made a Miata a Miata. It lost its soul, and instead became a mediocre example of an already-heavily-populate "niche". And none of this is even touching on FDev's apparent difficulties with QC and testing.

I realize a lot of you are thinking, "Who the hell are you, and why on Earth should I care what you think?" I''m just another player, but I am a devout fan of the Elite series. I've played countless hours since the beta, and spent far more hours thinking about the game / experimenting with different mechanics, trying some come up with suggestions to various challenges, and generally trying to improve the game. It could be because I'm struggling with depression right now (or it honestly could be a contributing factor to said depression), it's "kind of a big deal" for someone's opinion to shift as dramatically as mine has. I don't really know what I expect as far as replies to this thread go, but... I guess I just hope to have my mind changed in the future. I want to have hope again. I want to believe FDev will make this game as great as it can be. I want my optimism back.


Edit: For the sake of having a little more idea of what I'm talking about, here are some snippets from a post of mine later in the thread:

Your posts have always been insightful, and this is no exception. I've enjoyed, and still enjoy, ED a lot. But it is often despite design choices, rather than because of it. The most concerning thing for me is that skill becomes less and less important, consewuences are mostly absent due to non-stop infinite money glitches and stuff being added as fluff on top of gameplay, rather than expanding upon the gameplay itself.

Still, I can work around it all, but its a shame. On the bright side 3.0 did improve the game all around, and 3.3 may be very interesting too. But yeah, I often get the idea that the senior designers dont get the game, dont play the game and dont understand modern gaming culture in general.

 

[NMS]

For me, there's just been too many dead end bolt ons, with little/no attempt to add mechanics with depth. Consider Thargoid Bases, Guardian Bases, CQC, Generation Ships, Multicrew etc. Consider how much development time went into these, and how much time you've spent involved in them? When's the last time you went to a Generation Ship to point and click at it?

Meanwhile, after years of build up, we're finally in the exciting time of an actual alien invasion. FD have had years to line up the gameplay ready for this event. So I find it rather concerning there's been development time available with the kind of dead-end mini-game mechanics listed above, while all we can seemingly do to interact and affect this alien invasion is to carry X to Y to repair stations after invisible Thargoid Thursday morning attacks.

I think we even know that we're not even taking part in a "game" as regards this alien invasion, but simply going along with a cut scene. ie: We can't fight against or affect a simulation of an attack. Just witness the outcomes as someone at a desk at FD flicks a switch to mark a station as damaged. eg: Why isn't the Thargoid invasion depicted as a Powerplay view within which we can undertake more involved and interesting tasks to try and effect it? ie: Like we're actually competing and taking part with a game against some mechanics?

I started giving up hope with ED about two years ago, and Season 2 did very little to address this. Planetary landings were truly impressive, but little else really made much of an impression of me.

As I've said elsewhere, Q4 of this year I see as make or break for me. With a clean slate to design and develope what FD are proclaiming improvements to the core gameplay of Exploration and Mining, along with a payable DLC (atmospheric landings?), we'll get to see if FD are changing their ethos to introduce some really interesting deeper mechanics and gameplay. Or if we're just in for more bolt on shallow mini-game designs.

+1

And I have no faith in Q4. It's going to be the same crap that has been released so far.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

FE2 & FFE offer vastly more fun and engagement, precisely because of the freedom of movement, and not in spite of it. All the hotshots who got stuck in jousts were using the wrong flight assist mode, with their engines at full thwack trying to accelerate them to interplanetary speeds in whatever direction they aimed the nose, while trying to dogfight.

I disagree. I played FE2 and especially FFE a lot. Could take on any ship or pack in an Osprey X. It was pretty routine because the AI was terrible - a bit of careful thruster control in a fast ship, and you could just sit behind anything with the firepower to be dangerous pecking it to death, because it would never think to hit full retros, or cut thrust and spin around, or fit a rear/turret laser, or anything else that might have stopped cheap tricks like that.

Yes, sure, there were plenty of people who couldn't fight in it (or at least, not beyond sticking a plasma accelerator turret on a Panther and not having to care about details such as "velocity" any more) ... but if the AI had known how to fight (as opposed to basically selecting the player as nav target, engaging autopilot, and firing when its nose was roughly in the right direction) then fights would have all come down to who had more DPS (or if the faster but weaker ship could just accelerate off into the distance uncontested)

 

[Ian Skippy]

I disagree. I played FE2 and especially FFE a lot. Could take on any ship or pack in an Osprey X. It was pretty routine because the AI was terrible - a bit of careful thruster control in a fast ship, and you could just sit behind anything with the firepower to be dangerous pecking it to death, because it would never think to hit full retros, or cut thrust and spin around, or fit a rear/turret laser, or anything else that might have stopped cheap tricks like that.

Yes, sure, there were plenty of people who couldn't fight in it (or at least, not beyond sticking a plasma accelerator turret on a Panther and not having to care about details such as "velocity" any more) ... but if the AI had known how to fight (as opposed to basically selecting the player as nav target, engaging autopilot, and firing when its nose was roughly in the right direction) then fights would have all come down to who had more DPS (or if the faster but weaker ship could just accelerate off into the distance uncontested)

Pretty much everyone disagrees with him.

 

[Jex =TE=]

You're probably right. But it doesn't *have to be this way*.

The thing that triggered me was that video of Braben talking about grind in games, and saying literally " the kids will do it". Ok maybe they will, but is that a good approach to game design?

For me it explains so much about why things are the way they are.

The kids will do it? I made a comment ages ago about not being a kid anymore which is why I can't play these simple game mechanics like I once used to and now Braben's actually saying that too - that it's a game for kids and that's good enough? So what about the actual people that backed the game, you know, those of us in our 20's,30's,40's,50's and 60's? - as in the majority of customers? So he thinks we're kids or that "well, the kids will do it, who cares about the others"?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

+1

And I have no faith in Q4. It's going to be the same crap that has been released so far.

As I find that 3.0 has mostly been superb, I find this a rather odd statement. Hey ho. But you keep saying it like a broken record, for the life of me I do not understand why..

 

[Ian Skippy]

The kids will do it? I made a comment ages ago about not being a kid anymore which is why I can't play these simple game mechanics like I once used to and now Braben's actually saying that too - that it's a game for kids and that's good enough? So what about the actual people that backed the game, you know, those of us in our 20's,30's,40's,50's and 60's? - as in the majority of customers? So he thinks we're kids or that "well, the kids will do it, who cares about the others"?

No, kids do it. Adults dont and play differentky. Except some adults do grind and the complain, and then repeat that for years.