Newcomer / Intro Starting up with trading...but not sure if I'm doing it right!

[TickTockRob]

Hello, everyone,

I've recently started learning to trade. I realise there are many 3rd party tools out there you can use, so you basically enter your current system, add a few other parameters, and it gives you a good trade route. But I want to work it out myself, and create my own routes and take it from there (improve them, etc).

As a starting point, I looked at https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91538, which is a good guide.

However, it didn't quite work out for me...despite a bit of success, I basically became unstuck. I tried displaying the systems with their trade routes, as the guide said, and I essentially found a system that was exporting a good to 5 neighbouring systems, but when I arrived at this system, it didn't sell the actual good! And there was only one place to dock, so it wasn't like I had the wrong place. The trade routes on the galactic map almost always seemed to have issues like this. It basically wasn't worth looking at, from what I could tell, because it didn't take into account current levels of stock or the actual demand/supply totals (so it would show a trade that wasn't lucrative even if it did sell the good. The only use was to go to a station, and see what was the listing for each station (which is presumably the top three)).

So what I've started doing is basically filtering my galactic map to only show those with a population of min 70% to max 100%, and filtering on High Tech, Industrial and Refinery systems.

I basically then travel to these places, and make a note of the commodities that have a supply of >50-70k and a sell price of >5k, and those that have a demand of >50-70k, and a buy price of >5k

I then travel to neighbouring systems and do the same, making a note of what they have to offer and what they want.

And that's basically it. Does that sound a good way to do it? I've noticed some good places to sell and buy from, but am yet to do it (it was nearly 2am at this point!).

So I'm basically travelling about, finding which places have the criteria I'm after, and then will formulate a trade route with what I find, and then hopefully add to it.

What do you all think?

 

[mistohise]

Such criteria is a good idea. You can also check in the commodities lists where it is saying "exported to" and "imported from" for the selected commodities. Additionally, the commodity description will tell you which sort of stations produce and consume it, which will give you a good starting point.

 

[TickTockRob]

Such criteria is a good idea. You can also check in the commodities lists where it is saying "exported to" and "imported from" for the selected commodities. Additionally, the commodity description will tell you which sort of stations produce and consume it, which will give you a good starting point.

Thanks for this! But won't this have the same issue I experience above with the galactic map i.e. it will show trades to systems that are not lucrative (low demand at the system it is selling to) and also perhaps ones that don't have the item to sell (if they were buying from there)?

 

[goemon]

sounds good.

i made myself a list of high profitable goods, all goods above 1000 cr/t galactic average and some additional goods, which economy produces each of those goods, and where they are sold for max profit.
for exampel: marine equipment, produced at industrial economies, sold at agricultural economies.
if i scout a traderoute i take samples of all goods with me.

if you are not setting up a trade-route with multiple steps, you can also just look for the most profitable a-b-a route. if you don't do slaves, there is nothing better then trading palladium for performance enhancers/ or progentitor cells, e.g. high-tech and extraction economy. so you look for hightech systems, and extraction systems close by. but a-b-a trading gets boring quite fast!

 

[mistohise]

Thanks for this! But won't this have the same issue I experience above with the galactic map i.e. it will show trades to systems that are not lucrative (low demand at the system it is selling to) and also perhaps ones that don't have the item to sell (if they were buying from there)?

It might show you low demand places, yes.

 

[TickTockRob]

sounds good.

i made myself a list of high profitable goods, all goods above 1000 cr/t galactic average and some additional goods, which economy produces each of those goods, and where they are sold for max profit.
for exampel: marine equipment, produced at industrial economies, sold at agricultural economies.
if i scout a traderoute i take samples of all goods with me.

if you are not setting up a trade-route with multiple steps, you can also just look for the most profitable a-b-a route. if you don't do slaves, there is nothing better then trading palladium for performance enhancers/ or progentitor cells, e.g. high-tech and extraction economy. so you look for hightech systems, and extraction systems close by. but a-b-a trading gets boring quite fast!

Thanks! Glad I'm on the right track.

Ahh, you mention agrecultural economies...this is also an area that I was unsure about. Basically, all the guides I've read state that you should look at high tech places, industrial and refinery (perhaps another that I can't remember). They don't mention agricultural!

But from what you say, it sounds like there are items that are produced in industrial places, and sell well in agricultural places...so there's a bit of knowledge required to know what sells good where.

Does this mean, then, that I shouldn't filter out for different types of worlds (industrial etc), and just visit them all?

But yes, it'd be nice to do a a-b-a route...but perhaps not exciting like you say haha but we'll see. even that isn't so straight forward. For me, yet, anyway.

 

[Miklos Atreides]

Low demand isn't meaning too much at all.
Lately I traded at a station with Demand 0; Profit per tonne was above 1500.
So I check prices only. Simply buy low, sell high.
If you are serving the route on a regular base, get alternatives in goods if possible
or a variant of your traderoute as Plan B. Prices might change when exploiting the
route too much.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[Ben_BigBen]

If you want to only use data collected by you, from stations only you have visited then a lot of people use Cmdr's Log

 

[RhymeRhyme]

How much could I make per hour with my Python if I equip her with max storage and find a decent route? I'm not talking about rares or something, just a decent route.

And how much per ton would a decent route generate per hour and/or per ton?

EDIT: I just changed the loadout using the configurator. I get 292 tons max. cargo space for my Python. That means that with 1 run and let's assume 1.500 Cr. per ton I would only make 438.000 Cr. per run? That seems very little. How long does such a run take? If I Bounty Hunt a HAZ Res I can make that easily in round about 10 minutes, if I get a good instance.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

How much could I make per hour with my Python if I equip her with max storage and find a decent route? I'm not talking about rares or something, just a decent route.

And how much per ton would a decent route generate per hour and/or per ton?

For some people the Golden Number is over 3000cr /t per round trip. Mostly this involves Imperial Slaves one way and any old tat the other direction. It then comes down to finding stations very near the jump in points in systems within one jump of one another.

For a Python you can go 276t in a Python with a Size 4 Shield. If you could find a 3000cr/t round trip that took you 15 mins per loop, you would be making 12kcr/t/hr on 276t = 3.3Mcr/hr

I'm sure veteran traders could improve on that figure.

 

[TickTockRob]

Low demand isn't meaning too much at all.
Lately I traded at a station with Demand 0; Profit per tonne was above 1500.
So I check prices only. Simply buy low, sell high.
If you are serving the route on a regular base, get alternatives in goods if possible
or a variant of your traderoute as Plan B. Prices might change when exploiting the
route too much.

Regards,
Miklos

ah I see! Hmm, I guess the only issue is that you'd have to know by physically trying to sell the item wouldn't you? I mean, I couldn't predict I'd get a good price without having it to sell in the first place?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

For some people the Golden Number is over 3000cr /t per round trip. Mostly this involves Imperial Slaves one way and any old tat the other direction. It then comes down to finding stations very near the jump in points in systems within one jump of one another.

For a Python you can go 276t in a Python with a Size 4 Shield. If you could find a 3000cr/t round trip that took you 15 mins per loop, you would be making 12kcr/t/hr on 276t = 3.3Mcr/hr

I'm sure veteran traders could improve on that figure.

Just a question about slaves...for you to make a profit as you're saying, is this selling them on the black market?

If so, does this always involve flying dark? I've yet to master this...do you have any tips for it?

Thanks!

 

[TickTockRob]

If you want to only use data collected by you, from stations only you have visited then a lot of people use Cmdr's Log

I hadn't heard of this. I'll look into it!

It doesn't get shared with any third party trading tools does it? It says it doesn't...but well, you know

 

[Tuub t Tute]

No, many ports are happy to buy Imperial Slaves without resorting to a black market or smuggling. Straight trading, no silent running or avoiding scans.

What you generally find is that you can make a big profit selling the Imp Slaves, but there is very little to be made on the return leg flying a direct A -> B -> A -> B back and forth route.

 

[TickTockRob]

It might show you low demand places, yes.

ahh I see...well I'm guessing it's still useful as you use it, but I seem to be falling foul of low demand places!

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

No, many ports are happy to buy Imperial Slaves without resorting to a black market or smuggling. Straight trading, no silent running or avoiding scans.

What you generally find is that you can make a big profit selling the Imp Slaves, but there is very little to be made on the return leg flying a direct A -> B -> A -> B back and forth route.

ahh good, that makes it easier...I didn't want to have to start faffing with the black market, as it just takes time and you can get caught.

I did notice some good gains with slaves...I hope I made a note of them! Hmm, I'm thinking that I didn't. Ugh.

 

[Philip Coutts]

If you are making money, you are doing it right! I always stick to the safe bets as discussed above at first when I move to a new area. Then I start noting demand and prices using good old fashioned paper and pen. That way I can work out where the most profitable trades are to be made. Takes time but I find it quite relaxing.

 

[Greno Zee]

To OP: if you want, look me up in game, I should be online around 9 p.m. GMT. I'll be happy to wing up with you, provide a bit of extra protection my A classed Viper MkIV can offer and get my provision. I really don't care about how much I earn as long as it's fun and winging up so far has always been great experience.
We can share some trading ideas, I have a system worked out that seems to deliver steady profits.

 

[goemon]

Does this mean, then, that I shouldn't filter out for different types of worlds (industrial etc), and just visit them all?

"just visit them all" won't work, because the number is to big... i'd work with educated guesses. if you see a high-paying good sold way under galactic average, make a guess, where it could be sold for profit.

outside of slave trading, best profit can be made between hightech and extraction-systems. there is only one problem: most extraction-systems with competitive palladium prices only have outposts, so you are restricted to ships which are able to land on medium pads. that's why most guides refer to highttech-refinery-industrial systems - if you want to trade in a t7, t9, clipper, anaconda, trutter, you need large landing pads. also, most extraction-systems haven't such a big supply, and a great trade route might dry out fast.

outside of slave trading, you are looking at 750-1500 cr profit per ton; a really good a-b-a palldium/performance enhancers route will pay you 1500+ per roundtrip per ton.

agricultural systems can give you decent profit in a-b-a route, if your other system is paying well legally for tobacco, narcotics, or a crazy amount on coffee or tea AND has one of the high paying goods a agricultural system needs for a very cheap price.

but, as said, that is rare, and you better go looking for a combination of hightech/extraction. there are some metals very often overlooked, like beryllium, which might give more profits than palladium.
___

i set up trade routes for different reasons, for exampel i have a 50 stop trade route between the three capitals, to combine getting major faction reputation with trading, i have another 40 stop trade route, where i check the bgs stats for often illegal rares, and i trade to influence the bgs sometimes - if you do things like that, you need trading samples ,because your routes aren't important enough for the crowd sourced trade data tools, you get a different perpectives on trading then cr/h, which will a) lead you to a-b-a trading and b) to only very few economies and commodities, which are "worth bothering with".

but each his own!

 

[TickTockRob]

If you are making money, you are doing it right! I always stick to the safe bets as discussed above at first when I move to a new area. Then I start noting demand and prices using good old fashioned paper and pen. That way I can work out where the most profitable trades are to be made. Takes time but I find it quite relaxing.

Yes I enjoy it too, and it's nice to feel like you're getting somewhere with it. I already have some key places in mind.

How long, typically, do your prices stay valid for? That is, how long before what was a good buying/selling place no longer is any good? Do they stay okay for a good while, or are you talking only a few days?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

To OP: if you want, look me up in game, I should be online around 9 p.m. GMT. I'll be happy to wing up with you, provide a bit of extra protection my A classed Viper MkIV can offer and get my provision. I really don't care about how much I earn as long as it's fun and winging up so far has always been great experience.
We can share some trading ideas, I have a system worked out that seems to deliver steady profits.

Thank you for the offer! I'm jumping about so much though, and then sitting about working things out, it may not be that easy for two of us. Plus I'm actually on the Xbox version of the game! Perhaps once I get my routes in order though, it would be a better trip. At the moment, too much stop starting, and me working things out, unfortunately.

 

[TickTockRob]

"just visit them all" won't work, because the number is to big... i'd work with educated guesses. if you see a high-paying good sold way under galactic average, make a guess, where it could be sold for profit.

outside of slave trading, best profit can be made between hightech and extraction-systems. there is only one problem: most extraction-systems with competitive palladium prices only have outposts, so you are restricted to ships which are able to land on medium pads. that's why most guides refer to highttech-refinery-industrial systems - if you want to trade in a t7, t9, clipper, anaconda, trutter, you need large landing pads. also, most extraction-systems haven't such a big supply, and a great trade route might dry out fast.

outside of slave trading, you are looking at 750-1500 cr profit per ton; a really good a-b-a palldium/performance enhancers route will pay you 1500+ per roundtrip per ton.

agricultural systems can give you decent profit in a-b-a route, if your other system is paying well legally for tobacco, narcotics, or a crazy amount on coffee or tea AND has one of the high paying goods a agricultural system needs for a very cheap price.

but, as said, that is rare, and you better go looking for a combination of hightech/extraction. there are some metals very often overlooked, like beryllium, which might give more profits than palladium.
___

i set up trade routes for different reasons, for exampel i have a 50 stop trade route between the three capitals, to combine getting major faction reputation with trading, i have another 40 stop trade route, where i check the bgs stats for often illegal rares, and i trade to influence the bgs sometimes - if you do things like that, you need trading samples ,because your routes aren't important enough for the crowd sourced trade data tools, you get a different perpectives on trading then cr/h, which will a) lead you to a-b-a trading and b) to only very few economies and commodities, which are "worth bothering with".

but each his own!

Yes, I thought the visit them all option wouldn't be a good idea!

At the moment, I'm only in a Hauler, as it's all I could afford (for now!). So the size of the place hasn't been an issue...but I'll bear it in mind as it soon will be. Are outposts the ones that look a bit like an oil platform?

it's something to bear in mind though - I can keep an eye out for them.

But yes, I've noticed a lot of very high Beryllium demand (Indium too etc). And I've found a place that supplies it, so I'm going to get this going soon. But I will add Extraction places to my filters (perhaps not agricultural, as it's rare and therefore just a bit too much effort for low percentage gain.

I've not really looked into the more rare goods side, which are the most lucrative, I hear. I don't know actulaly what BGS stats are, and just what you mean by "trading samples" - is that where you take one to a system and see how it sells?

But did you end with that, trading rares, is basically a-b-a trading, as a whole? I guess this would make sense, as you'd exploit it while it lasts, and not go your usual route.

 

[goemon]

How long, typically, do your prices stay valid for? That is, how long before what was a good buying/selling place no longer is any good? Do they stay okay for a good while, or are you talking only a few days?

it really depends on so many things... some stops of my 50-stops-route are stable since august, including 1.4 and 1.5 patch. some, especially around contested powerplay systems, changed a lot (like two times a week). but in most cases, if you have a demand above 150 k, and a supply above 150 k, you should be good for a month or two - check the traffic report, too, to get an impression whether there are other cmdr's very active in your space.