Newcomer / Intro Starting up with trading...but not sure if I'm doing it right!

[happyfunball]

How long, typically, do your prices stay valid for? That is, how long before what was a good buying/selling place no longer is any good? Do they stay okay for a good while, or are you talking only a few days?

Depends on the popularity of the route and how often the commodity refreshes. If you happen upon a route that's a local maximum by one of the third party trade tools, then it can fluctuate quite a lot during the day. If it's a nice little route that trade optimizer tools miss, then it can be stable for weeks. Also, if you're hammering it with a Tradeconda on an A-B-A route, you can easily kill a route yourself if the refresh can't keep up with your runs.

By the way, CR/ton isn't really a good way to look at a route. You should consider CR/ton/hr. If you can make the trip faster, a lower CR/ton might work out better in the long run because you can turn around faster.

 

[TickTockRob]

it really depends on so many things... some stops of my 50-stops-route are stable since august, including 1.4 and 1.5 patch. some, especially around contested powerplay systems, changed a lot (like two times a week). but in most cases, if you have a demand above 150 k, and a supply above 150 k, you should be good for a month or two - check the traffic report, too, to get an impression whether there are other cmdr's very active in your space.

Wow, and did you manage to get this 50 stop route without any tools, just your own research?

I hadn't considered looking for the traffic reports...I didn't even know they existed. I'll check those out!

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Depends on the popularity of the route and how often the commodity refreshes. If you happen upon a route that's a local maximum by one of the third party trade tools, then it can fluctuate quite a lot during the day. If it's a nice little route that trade optimizer tools miss, then it can be stable for weeks. Also, if you're hammering it with a Tradeconda on an A-B-A route, you can easily kill a route yourself if the refresh can't keep up with your runs.

By the way, CR/ton isn't really a good way to look at a route. You should consider CR/ton/hr. If you can make the trip faster, a lower CR/ton might work out better in the long run because you can turn around faster.

I did come back to a place yesterday, and the supply of one of the items had gone almost dry. Ugh. But yes, I'll not forget about the time factor! Thank you for that.

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Well, everyone, I visited about 20 star systems with the described filters.

I had some joy in finding some places with good supply items. But only about 4 perhaps.

Most places had a lot of stuff in demand, but it was mainly the same things (metals - Indium etc).

Also, some had Resonating somethingorothers, but I could not find anywhere that had these for sale! There were places marked as exporting it on the Galaxy Map, but they didn't have any in stock when I went there.

So that made things difficult.

And one place I did discover had a good supply of something, had basically ran dry after a day.

So, to cut a long story short, I couldn't get a trade route going. I could make 1k a tonne profit, but it'd basically be going to one place, buying, going to another place, selling, then back to the first place. I couldn't even trade on the way back.

So what am I doing wrong? Do I need to go to even more systems? I thought I'd be at least able to get a a-b-a route going, at the very least...!

But there were just so few systems with anything half decent they could supply.

 

[happyfunball]

The problem is that there are a lot of systems and a lot of stations out there, and the possibility of crappy trade around a random system can be high. Unfortunately the in-game tools just isn't very good at filtering. At best you can get some feel for what kind of economy buys and sells what, and hope for the best.

That's why people use a lot of third party tools to help. If you still want to do it yourself, there are some helpful tools that will track prices of the stations you visit, but not pull shared data from the net. At least that will help you with organization and simplifies data collection. For example, Elite Trade Computer Extension Mk.II.

 

[TickTockRob]

The problem is that there are a lot of systems and a lot of stations out there, and the possibility of crappy trade around a random system can be high. Unfortunately the in-game tools just isn't very good at filtering. At best you can get some feel for what kind of economy buys and sells what, and hope for the best.

That's why people use a lot of third party tools to help. If you still want to do it yourself, there are some helpful tools that will track prices of the stations you visit, but not pull shared data from the net. At least that will help you with organization and simplifies data collection. For example, Elite Trade Computer Extension Mk.II.

Yes, it does seem to not work as it should to make trading plausible without a lot of faff and travelling about. This may well be realistic, but kind of defeats the point of any of the filtering and deduction using these tools. As you say, it seems to be a bit more on luck, finding a system that has this, and then finding one that wants it. They could be ages apart, and mean that a smaller, less deduced trade, would work out more efficient and profitable in the same amount of time.

Which is a shame.

So I'm starting to think plotting using third party tools, and then perhaps adding your own things from what you find, is the way forward. It still doesn't guarantee the best prices etc

You mentioned, or hinted at, the different type of systems...if I go to system A, that has a supply of fish, is it then almost without saying that an agricultural system will have a demand for it? Can this be deduced without having to fly to systems etc?

If so, what are the dependencies such as this? i.e. Refinery will always supply High Tech, High Tech will always supply Agricultural etc

And thanks for the logger! I'll look into that

 

[goemon]

Wow, and did you manage to get this 50 stop route without any tools, just your own research?

yes, exactly. took some time, trade samples, detours, rerouting etc....

for comparison i set up a similar second route with tools (mainly eddb.io).

average profit of the route with tools is 15-20% higher. the route with tools is less stable.

setting up a route "manually" was much more fun.

i rarely trade nowadays, mainly for influencing the bgs, or community goals. the knowledge of setting up a route manually and take your own data helps in both cases. but those tools are really great (and a lot of developer and team/crowd effort), and the right thing if you want to make money fast, or you want to have an answer fast.

 

[TickTockRob]

yes, exactly. took some time, trade samples, detours, rerouting etc....

for comparison i set up a similar second route with tools (mainly eddb.io).

average profit of the route with tools is 15-20% higher. the route with tools is less stable.

setting up a route "manually" was much more fun.

i rarely trade nowadays, mainly for influencing the bgs, or community goals. the knowledge of setting up a route manually and take your own data helps in both cases. but those tools are really great (and a lot of developer and team/crowd effort), and the right thing if you want to make money fast, or you want to have an answer fast.

Well at least you've shown it can be done, and does work out better as well.

Do you find though that, due to prices changing, you have to go through it all again on a regular basis?

It seems very hard to do, and I'm not sure if the systems/planets I'm discounting are right...I'm not sure if I should look at exporting from one system type to another, or whether it's only supply and demand (in numbers) that matters.

 

[D4RK5T4R]

Thrudds trade database is quite useful.

http://www.elitetradingtool.co.uk/

 

[goemon]

Do you find though that, due to prices changing, you have to go through it all again on a regular basis?

It seems very hard to do, and I'm not sure if the systems/planets I'm discounting are right...I'm not sure if I should look at exporting from one system type to another, or whether it's only supply and demand (in numbers) that matters.

well, i run this route every four weeks or so, and i have to change 1 or 2 systems then.

my strategy to set up a trade route would be:


a) make a list of high value commodities. that are commodities with 800+ Cr galactic average prize. why? because 20 percent profit on a 1000 cr commodity are 200 cr, while 20% profit on 400 Cr commodity are 80 cr/t...

b) note down, which economy produces which of those high value goods, also note down, which economy needs those high value goods (you can find both infos in the commodity description in the market). you will end up with a list of 20-30 commodities. those are in 90% of all cases the only ones, which are worth trading.

c) start somewhere by buying all those commodities from the market which are available and below galactic average, have a look at supply (if low, check traffic report), and go to the next system, where you know the economy should need your commodities. note down profit of all goods your brought, sell, but hold your samples, and buy all high value goods from the market as sample, go to next system... etc. some people use special ships for scouting trade routes with very good jumpranges, like an DBE or Asp. for me scouting is part of the game .... it takes longer, but i make little profits anyway.

do you want to set up a route in special region of space? it can be a good idea to have a "home base" (high tech economy is always a good idea, because those produce many high value goods...) - then you simply take your samples and check all systems you can reach with one jump fully laden... you will have a trading net of a dozend stations soon.

then comes the fine tuning. how far is the station from entry point? if you trade for profit, you don't want to spend 10 minutes in supercruise. how much profit can you do on the way back? etc. have in mind that you want to have a good average profit. if do a-b-a trading, making 1200 cr/t on the first way, but only 100 CR on the way back, isn't as good as making 800 Cr profit on both ways.

from experience i can tell you, that this can be very suprising and annoying - you find a dirt cheap supply of beryllium, and no system nearby, where to you could sell them with profit AND buy something below galactic average. or you check out 8 dictatorship to sell your battle weapons...

a classical trade cycle will follow most of the times these economy types: HI/EX - EX/HI - REF/IN. or, a full cycle: ref - ind - ag - ex - hi - ref

 

[goemon]

maybe it will make things easier, if you select a target/object.

for exampel:
- select two rare goods, which are 120 ly from each other. those will sell with a profit of 16000 cr/t. find a trade route with 10 stations between the goods, where you buy/sell commodities with profit. sort out the stations with profit below average, try to find better stations etc.
- or: select a base, high tech preferred, find a cycle of 6 stations, which bring you back to your base with profit...

very often people overestimate the possible profit per ton. beside slave trading, you are very good when you hit 1500 cr/t profit with a commodity, and most of the times you average profit will be around 700-800 cr/t, and if you manage 1000 cr/t average profit, or more, you are amazing. the money comes steady.

 

[TickTockRob]

well, i run this route every four weeks or so, and i have to change 1 or 2 systems then.

my strategy to set up a trade route would be:


a) make a list of high value commodities. that are commodities with 800+ Cr galactic average prize. why? because 20 percent profit on a 1000 cr commodity are 200 cr, while 20% profit on 400 Cr commodity are 80 cr/t...

b) note down, which economy produces which of those high value goods, also note down, which economy needs those high value goods (you can find both infos in the commodity description in the market). you will end up with a list of 20-30 commodities. those are in 90% of all cases the only ones, which are worth trading.

c) start somewhere by buying all those commodities from the market which are available and below galactic average, have a look at supply (if low, check traffic report), and go to the next system, where you know the economy should need your commodities. note down profit of all goods your brought, sell, but hold your samples, and buy all high value goods from the market as sample, go to next system... etc. some people use special ships for scouting trade routes with very good jumpranges, like an DBE or Asp. for me scouting is part of the game .... it takes longer, but i make little profits anyway.

do you want to set up a route in special region of space? it can be a good idea to have a "home base" (high tech economy is always a good idea, because those produce many high value goods...) - then you simply take your samples and check all systems you can reach with one jump fully laden... you will have a trading net of a dozend stations soon.

then comes the fine tuning. how far is the station from entry point? if you trade for profit, you don't want to spend 10 minutes in supercruise. how much profit can you do on the way back? etc. have in mind that you want to have a good average profit. if do a-b-a trading, making 1200 cr/t on the first way, but only 100 CR on the way back, isn't as good as making 800 Cr profit on both ways.

from experience i can tell you, that this can be very suprising and annoying - you find a dirt cheap supply of beryllium, and no system nearby, where to you could sell them with profit AND buy something below galactic average. or you check out 8 dictatorship to sell your battle weapons...

a classical trade cycle will follow most of the times these economy types: HI/EX - EX/HI - REF/IN. or, a full cycle: ref - ind - ag - ex - hi - ref

Lovely! Thanks so much for this. I was starting to think/get the impression that the different types of systems/worlds would make a difference. All the guides I'd read basically said just concentrate on Industrial, High Tech and Refinery. Well, from my experience so far, that advice is not viable.

I was now wanting to know, essentially, what you'd mentioned, which is what types of system rely on each other, and/or how to find out, which you've basically answered! So I shall make that list tonight/when I can!

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "samples" though; do you mean you hold some cargo back to see how much profit you could make when going through each system? I only have 10 spaces so far, and even when I upgrade to the next ship, it'll only be 16 haha, so it may be a time before I can realistically take samples as well...

I heard the central axis of a planet is a good way to measure distance from the star...is that what you use? Less than 3, a guide said, is a good distance....

Thanks again for this!

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maybe it will make things easier, if you select a target/object.

for exampel:
- select two rare goods, which are 120 ly from each other. those will sell with a profit of 16000 cr/t. find a trade route with 10 stations between the goods, where you buy/sell commodities with profit. sort out the stations with profit below average, try to find better stations etc.
- or: select a base, high tech preferred, find a cycle of 6 stations, which bring you back to your base with profit...

very often people overestimate the possible profit per ton. beside slave trading, you are very good when you hit 1500 cr/t profit with a commodity, and most of the times you average profit will be around 700-800 cr/t, and if you manage 1000 cr/t average profit, or more, you are amazing. the money comes steady.

Yes, that's just what I was hoping to do...but couldn't really do it as my tactic was too narrow, and it wasn't possible to find two systems that could trade together. But now I should be able to thanks to your other post confirming what I'd begun to suspect, and providing the means to work it out!

I'm surprised that the most profit is 1000cr/t though...I thought it would be more than that! It's still a lot, of course, especially with a bigger ship.
I did manage to find a 1300 profit run yesterday (1 way)...the way back wasn't so good though...but still 400/500. I'll have to expand upon this further and get a route going with this new info I have from you!

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Thrudds trade database is quite useful.

http://www.elitetradingtool.co.uk/

Thanks for this! I had seen this one, and was going to use it if need be

 

[goemon]

Lovely! Thanks so much for this. I was starting to think/get the impression that the different types of systems/worlds would make a difference. All the guides I'd read basically said just concentrate on Industrial, High Tech and Refinery. Well, from my experience so far, that advice is not viable.

I was now wanting to know, essentially, what you'd mentioned, which is what types of system rely on each other, and/or how to find out, which you've basically answered! So I shall make that list tonight/when I can!

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "samples" though; do you mean you hold some cargo back to see how much profit you could make when going through each system? I only have 10 spaces so far, and even when I upgrade to the next ship, it'll only be 16 haha, so it may be a time before I can realistically take samples as well...

I heard the central axis of a planet is a good way to measure distance from the star...is that what you use? Less than 3, a guide said, is a good distance....

Thanks again for this!

- if you klick on a station in the system map, it will tell you its distance from entry point, for exampel 600 ls. how close is close enough, is a good question, but i would rule out any stations above 1200 ls, and you need a good reason for everything above 250 ls...

- yes, with samples i meant keeping one of each high value commodity ... but tht is ruled out, if you don't have the cargo space.

- 10 upgrading to 16 sound like hauler - to adder? i don't want to spoil your activities, but bulktrading starts getting profitable with around 100 T cargo space (basically a t6). if you are just starting, and you want to trade, i would suggest doing other things first, for exampel bulleting board trading missions (get 6 tons of xxx), or rare goods trading: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63119, till you can afford a bulktrader like a t6, which will cost you 3 mio+ . an adder is a very good rare goods trader, next step will be an cobra, and then you are already there.

 

[TickTockRob]

- if you klick on a station in the system map, it will tell you its distance from entry point, for exampel 600 ls. how close is close enough, is a good question, but i would rule out any stations above 1200 ls, and you need a good reason for everything above 250 ls...

- yes, with samples i meant keeping one of each high value commodity ... but tht is ruled out, if you don't have the cargo space.

- 10 upgrading to 16 sound like hauler - to adder? i don't want to spoil your activities, but bulktrading starts getting profitable with around 100 T cargo space (basically a t6). if you are just starting, and you want to trade, i would suggest doing other things first, for exampel bulleting board trading missions (get 6 tons of xxx), or rare goods trading: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63119, till you can afford a bulktrader like a t6, which will cost you 3 mio+ . an adder is a very good rare goods trader, next step will be an cobra, and then you are already there.

Thanks for confirming those queries.

and yes, I did consider whether it would be a good idea to trade early...but I kind of figured that, if I wait until I have a big ship, I'll have kind of already reached the reasons to trade in the first place...! So while it is a smaller load I'm taking out and about, it kind of feels a bit more with purpose than when I have already hit the big time and can afford a big ship.

and thanks for the rare goods link! I was wondering about those too...are they basically a good that you buy from one place, that isn't usually there, and can sell anywhere for a profit, or does it have to be sold in certain places? I am guessing perhaps as far from the origin as possible?

 

[goemon]

Thanks for confirming those queries.

and yes, I did consider whether it would be a good idea to trade early...but I kind of figured that, if I wait until I have a big ship, I'll have kind of already reached the reasons to trade in the first place...! So while it is a smaller load I'm taking out and about, it kind of feels a bit more with purpose than when I have already hit the big time and can afford a big ship.

and thanks for the rare goods link! I was wondering about those too...are they basically a good that you buy from one place, that isn't usually there, and can sell anywhere for a profit, or does it have to be sold in certain places? I am guessing perhaps as far from the origin as possible?

there is no need to wait i started trading in a sidey, till i could afford an Adder, and went off exploring, because that was what i wanted to do.

concerning rare goods: there are roughly 130 rares ingame, which are only available at a certain station each. most of them come in a very low supply. they can be sold everywhere, but your profit increases with distance. so you will see to sell them between 100-160 ly (depending of jumprange of your ship).

they are ingame not only for flavour (i really love some of the commodity description), but also for early game traders, who don't have a lot of cargo space.

you'll see quite a lot of the human bubble, and work on your exploration rank if you fit a discovery scanner; learn howto fuelscoop, how to fly in supercruise the best, evade pirate interdictions...

 

[TickTockRob]

there is no need to wait i started trading in a sidey, till i could afford an Adder, and went off exploring, because that was what i wanted to do.

concerning rare goods: there are roughly 130 rares ingame, which are only available at a certain station each. most of them come in a very low supply. they can be sold everywhere, but your profit increases with distance. so you will see to sell them between 100-160 ly (depending of jumprange of your ship).

they are ingame not only for flavour (i really love some of the commodity description), but also for early game traders, who don't have a lot of cargo space.

you'll see quite a lot of the human bubble, and work on your exploration rank if you fit a discovery scanner; learn howto fuelscoop, how to fly in supercruise the best, evade pirate interdictions...

ahh good to hear you went down the same route! I think it's the way to go really. I can still see it being fun to trade once you've got a big ship, but it's about getting there, for me, that is the incentive.

Then I'd probably go about exploring and what not - as I'd then have a ship that is faster as well, and can do bounty hunts also.

Monetary-wise, I know this may be the wrong way around, but gameplay-wise, I think it's the right way.

Do you think rares are worth the bother then? Sounds interesting, but I'm not sure worth bothering unless you've got a big trade route already that takes you some distance...and even then, I'm not sure the money involved sounds worth it...perhaps it is! haha but well, just seems like clogging up space for your other items that you'd be trading every system, rather than wait x systems' time to be able to sell your rares for what would, at that point, probably be a loss compared to your other trades...

 

[mistohise]

Rate trading is generally more profitable per hour for small ships than general trading. Some of the rare routes involve clusters of about 4 stations followed by a journey to another cluster, with selling at both ends. Unless you have a really good quality basic trade route you can only beat rare trading by doing smuggling.
This all changes once you move to medium or large ships because the quantities of goods change.

 

[Rob_the_Sparky]

There used to be a time that bulk trading in large ships was the most profitable thing to do but long distance smuggling is now better and only needs a small(ish) ship. IMHO it is unbalanced at the moment as, having done a few trips without mission stacking, the risk is low and the profits are huge. The only time consuming bit is waiting for the bulletin board to update and as we all know you can choose to bypass that.
.
Also rare trading used to involve a fair risk of player pirate interaction. If you are rare trading just be ready that it might happen and consider how you might respond.

 

[TickTockRob]

Rate trading is generally more profitable per hour for small ships than general trading. Some of the rare routes involve clusters of about 4 stations followed by a journey to another cluster, with selling at both ends. Unless you have a really good quality basic trade route you can only beat rare trading by doing smuggling.
This all changes once you move to medium or large ships because the quantities of goods change.

ahh yes, that's what I was thinking really - and perhaps even if you have a good route, it may well end up being more convenient (even with a smaller ship)

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There used to be a time that bulk trading in large ships was the most profitable thing to do but long distance smuggling is now better and only needs a small(ish) ship. IMHO it is unbalanced at the moment as, having done a few trips without mission stacking, the risk is low and the profits are huge. The only time consuming bit is waiting for the bulletin board to update and as we all know you can choose to bypass that.
.
Also rare trading used to involve a fair risk of player pirate interaction. If you are rare trading just be ready that it might happen and consider how you might respond.

Ahh smuggling was tempting! Do you need to have a decent heatsync or what not for this? I've never really tried the flying in shadow (or whatever it's called - can't remember!), and getting away from it...I seem to get really hot very quickly.

Perhaps I'll give it a go as well, just to see what it's like.

What is the bulletin board exploit you mentioned though? I hadn't heard of that...!

But I do like the challenge of trade routes.

 

[mistohise]

It is not really an exploit. Changing play mode from open to solo can result in missions being refreshed more quickly than they otherwise might, allowing you to collect multiple high paying missions at once.

 

[Rob_the_Sparky]

Key with smuggling is knowing how to avoid scans and practicing fast entries to a station. I don't use silent running and rarely use heatsinks, more about timing and avoiding security ship interdiction. However, my Asp is set-up with a long range and runs quite cold (<25% when cruising), this helps as they don't see me in the first place. Also not being too greedy as the more missions you stack the more attention you will attract.
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Oh and the bulletin board refresh is not an exploit but it is very gamey so I avoid using it. TBH if you do use this the profits will be huge once you gain reputation with the factions in question and your trade rank goes up. I don't do it too often but I picked up two missions without refreshing the board and made 16,000,000 in a single long range smuggling trip. However, I'm not beginner and not sure how many of these really high value missions are available with a lower trade rank.
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The long jump range of the Asp makes the trip quite rapid. I tend to stop to scan interesting systems on the way and complete the one way trip in <30 minutes, you could do it in a lot less than this. The key is the long distance travelled though, you only really get these big payout missions from systems on the very edge of the bubble. We are talking >200ly delivery distances.
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FYI I moved from Cobra to T6 to Asp to Clipper primarily using rare trading and missions, then used the clipper for commodity trading and trade CGs. Now these long range smuggling missions exist I may have gone for smuggling once I had the Asp.

 

[goemon]

I may have gone for smuggling once I had

... a cobra