Station Ramming. FD, is there going to be any viable counter?

When you say station will respond. Ie shoot the player?

You have just given a possible grief mechanic. People will deliberately try and rammed by large ships as they head in, so that the station lights them up.

Have you got a way to prevent that?

Cheers

Majinvash
I have to give you credit Vash, I might not like you because you want to take my game away, but you do understand the mindset of a griefer.
 
I think you've misunderstood the proposal - you should be happy because exactly what you're asking for is exactly what is being tried - there is no "speed limit", and ramming remains a valid tactic, your speed is merely being used as a deciding factor indicating whether colliding with someone involved reckless (or malicious) flying on your part and thus, whether or not you should be charged for violating a station's "no fighting" zone. You can fly as fast as you like in the station as long as you don't ram people while you're doing it. Exactly like the autobahn. If you only bump someone, that's ok, no-one gets hurt and no-one gets fined. But if you ram someone (plow into them at speeds in excess of 100ms), that's not ok.

It is not a speed limit, it is a no-firing and no-ramming zone around stations, and the word "ramming" has now been defined to mean "colliding at a speed in excess of 100ms". (The exact value may be tweaked later)


Well i want ramming to be decided only if i kill someone. Doesnt matter if intented or not. If he doesnt die, i dont get the pesky wanted tag, doesnt matter which speed it was. So i can actually use my full boost (350+ in a vulture) to fly into the station, the ship is capable of stopping before the station wall gets too close.
 
Well i want ramming to be decided only if i kill someone. Doesnt matter if intented or not. If he doesnt die, i dont get the pesky wanted tag, doesnt matter which speed it was. So i can actually use my full boost (350+ in a vulture) to fly into the station, the ship is capable of stopping before the station wall gets too close.
Oh, sure, you can still do that. Just dont hit anybody.
 
Oh, sure, you can still do that. Just dont hit anybody.
And this is my problem with the speed limit. I get the wanted status every time (and i dont fly under 100, because my vulture get 120 with landing gear outside and 380+ with boost - why the heck would i slow down?) - even if i did no dmg. And this is a problem. Fine for doing hull dmg, wanted status + a hefty bounty if you kill someone. Nothing else would work for me. And this is the worst case, i like it right now - if i do something wrong, i die, if not - everyone is happy.
 
Well i want ramming to be decided only if i kill someone. Doesnt matter if intented or not. If he doesnt die, i dont get the pesky wanted tag, doesnt matter which speed it was. So i can actually use my full boost (350+ in a vulture) to fly into the station, the ship is capable of stopping before the station wall gets too close.

If you boost into a station and careen into a ship, you are definitely at fault for that crash, for reckless flying at minimum. You want to complain that it's a bad thing that you might face legal consequences for crashing into ships that don't belong to you?! The world doesn't work like that. If you can't ensure you won't crash into other ships, then the onus is on you to fly slowly enough that you won't cause damage when you hit (<100ms), until you are a safer pilot at higher speeds. Simple.

It's just like the autobahn.
 
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If you boost into a station and careen into a ship, you are definitely at fault for that crash, for reckless flying at minimum. You want to complain that it's a bad thing that you might face legal consequences for crashing into ships that don't belong to you?! The world doesn't work like that. If you can't ensure you won't crash into other ships, then the onus is on you to fly slowly enough that you won't cause damage when you hit (<100ms), until you are a safer pilot at higher speeds. Simple.

It's just like the autobahn.

Its not only about my skills as a pilot, there are always 2 involved. If people jump in front of your car and you hit them - you still have nothing to fear because its not your fault. And this is what is missing here. The system doesnt know who did what, no ingame system can know what you was thinking while flying.
And this why we dont need a speed limit, we just need a small punishment if we do any damage and a hefty fine/bounty if someone dies (and it was not a suicide!).
I refuse to accept the speed limit till the system can decide who is responsible for the crash without even looking at the speed.
 
I hope the speed limit is only put in high traffic systems/stations. Seems over the top to give the entire galaxy a rule for just a few cases of people being jerks in localized locations.
I'm still not sure I understand the bounty thing either. So if 2 people are doing over 100 m/s and pass by each other barely scrapping each others shields, the station is just going to give them a both a bounty and kill on sight? I'm really sick of all the KOS bounties already. We don't need more.
 
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No fire zone means just that, no fire zone.

It is the Control "Air"Space around the station.

- - - Updated - - -

I refuse to accept the speed limit till the system can decide who is responsible for the crash without even looking at the speed.

Then dont complain about the consequences if you ignore any speed limit imposed.
The autobahn isnt a carpark.
And I see the station as more of a carpark than a highway

- - - Updated - - -

Well i want ramming to be decided only if i kill someone. Doesnt matter if intented or not. If he doesnt die, i dont get the pesky wanted tag, doesnt matter which speed it was. So i can actually use my full boost (350+ in a vulture) to fly into the station, the ship is capable of stopping before the station wall gets too close.

So what about damage but not death?
Is that ramming?
 
We currently have a timer once we are in a station. Being involve in an incident (either accident, or ramming or being rammed) could progressively lower the time allowed in the station: if you were ramming to much time would fly and you would have to leave the premises before the station shoots at you.

This is a good idea. Since we do have a time counter when landing and taking off. I rammed the station on my way out, I slipped with my joystick, and crashed into the upper part of the exit/entrance. If crashes happens within that particular place, it should be considered as accident I think, but if You do it repeatedly, You could have some kind of punishment/extra fine or whatever. I lost all my shields, got down to 8% of my hull, and nearly died and lost the ship in the process! :) I had to get out, to dock again for repairs, and got stuck in the exit, and the station security gave me a fine, as the other crap was not enough? :) When I came back into the station, pieces of my ship floated around.... I can laugh about it now. :)
 
Its not only about my skills as a pilot, there are always 2 involved. If people jump in front of your car and you hit them - you still have nothing to fear because its not your fault. And this is what is missing here.

Nothing is missing here. No-one can jump in front of you without them becoming at fault for any incident that occurs. If you think that someone traveling slower than 100ms can "jump" in front of you, then it is your skills as a pilot that are dangerously lacking and if you wish to avoid being at fault you should slow down until you are more skilled. But if the other party is going at such high speed that they can jump in front of you and you are also going so fast that you lack the ability to avoid a high-speed collision, then they (like you) are being reckless (or malicious) and the system slaps them too, same as you.

I know you like anarchy of being able to do crazy stuff without consequences, but a docking-station is a highly regulated environment, and this has always been the case. If you're landing at an airport, or docking a boat, you better believe there are strict rules about speed (and a lot more!) - rules that cease to apply the moment your plane or boat leaves the area of that high-traffic facility. That's when you break out the high-speed hijinks :)
 
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Damn... I rammed a station again last night!! 3rd or 4th time now. 2 times I wanted to leave the station and pressing the booster button. As I did not aim propperly, I missed the slot by an inch and rammed the station with a big boom. Ship gone. Poor station!
 
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Ramming a hostile ship during combat is OK, but the problem here is griefers who ram ships as they dock. There's no counter and there's no accountability.

For example, a Clipper hovers inside George Lucas station. B7 shields and 4*shield boosters. When an innocent player [1] approaches to dock, the Clipper boosts out and rams the player in the letterbox. Either the victim is destoyed (and the Clipper boasts "T6 down!" or whatever on local chat ), or the Clipper insults him ("You rammed me! Look where you're going!"). If anyone criticies him he calls them Crybabies and says "Frontier don't give a <redacted>". He continues doing this for several days. He stays inside the station no fire zone, so the station defends him.

The easy way around this would be to grant 100% insurance to anyone who is rammed within the no fire zone around a station and no kill score either—that way, there is no right or wrong to ramming and no reward for indulging in the tactic anywhere except in deep space, where it is far more challenging to do and is legit as any other tactic, I guess. If 100% insurance was given for ship and cargo and the rammed player is restarted in the hangar, it leaves the rammer outside with no gain.

On the whole, I suspect that the average age of the players who lurk and ram is about 12, so reasoning with em ain't gonna work, and since they can't easily be put on the naughty step, the best psychological move would be to take their toys away. As long as Frontier have the tools to detect a ram occurring in the no fire zone, then it shouldn't be too difficult to implement and avoids the whole moral relativism discussion (-:
 
The easy way around this would be to grant 100% insurance to anyone who is rammed within the no fire zone around a station and no kill score either

Not necessarily, as you'd still lose cargo, bounties and exploration data in that case. Not a bad idea though, but you might actually end up with people dropping their shields and ramming T9s just to get into dock more quickly. :D

To be honest, detecting ramming by ship orientation/speed should be pretty easy in most cases. We'll see how the 100m/s limit works soon...
 
Hello Commanders!

Just to let you know, we'll be trialling a new crime in the next beta: "no-fire zone high-speed collisions" There's a brief explanation in the latest dev update:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=141640

It will be reasonably punitive (If you collide at over 100 m p/s the starport will respond in addition to a bounty being issued), so we'll be keeping a an eye on it and feedback from players.

While I agree that something needs to be done, this sounds unreasonably punishing to me. Griefers will go at 90 and ram people who look a bit too fast in the hopes of catching them above the allowed speed limit (and inncoent people will then be killed by the station for going 101 mp/s )

Suggestion: when the landing gear is down, the maximum speed should be limited to 95 or so. That would make it impossible to accidentally be slightly over a 100.
 
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On the whole, I suspect that the average age of the players who lurk and ram is about 12, so reasoning with em ain't gonna work, and since they can't easily be put on the naughty step, the best psychological move would be to take their toys away. As long as Frontier have the tools to detect a ram occurring in the no fire zone, then it shouldn't be too difficult to implement and avoids the whole moral relativism discussion (-:

Also, this ^

Couldnt they just make a daily statistic of players involved in ramming "accidents" near stations? The names of some commanders will probably stand out like a sore thumb. These individuals could then easily be dealt with by whatever means FD deem appropriate.
 
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