Stuff that makes us come back

EDO is, usually, just a quick VR space invaders fix for me. An after work break in LHS 317 Haz Res, occasionally Robigo runs to top up mats & money. Stuff where I need a quick break but don't want to spend enough time to feel bad about wasting hours in a video game rather than achieving something worthwhile, for me. If I want something genuinely rewarding, I'll play MSFS. I don't mind doing the graft on that because the procedures are useful for flight training.
 
Last edited:
There can be plenty to learn without also forcing you to endure being caned in the shins the whole while, though. There's many more positive forms that failure itself could take, as well.
What caning, though? Aside from the "bullet sponge" jump at higher combat levels, everything is optional in this game. This includes things that, IMO, shouldn't be optional, which is why the "bullet sponge" jump is a problem in the first place: Frontier continually confuses freedom from consequence for freedom of action. Though admittedly, with a couple of exceptions, they did a great job on the latter.

This talk of caning reminds me of that old joke: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" "Then don't do that!"

It's one thing when the pain is due to a flaw in the game's design. The fact that ship and module prices increase exponentially, while their capabilities increased logarithmically, meant that under the original economic sim, which was far more interesting than the current version IMO, larger ships literally couldn't make a profit, especially when the luxury markets were saturated. Their expenses were too high for the mid-range precursors required for luxury good production to be profitable. If an arm is broken, then it needs to be set.

It's another when there's no in-game reason to do that in the first place. If it takes too long get to places, then stop flying so slow! If you think mining is a tedious grind, then don't do it! If it hurts when you put your hand into a fire, take it out!!!

Frontier's solution, when some players come to them saying "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" is to drug everyone to the gills until the complaints stop. They don't bother asking questions on what "this" is. They don't investigate whether "this" is because there's something actually broken, or if "this" is self inflicted. They just drug everyone until everything is a dull haze of banality.

I want to be able to consider the pros and cons of a contract, and how taking it will shape the local balance of power. I want to do an ABA cargo run, and need to adjust the proportion of commodities in my hull, based on how the market reacts to my deliveries. I want to be tempted out of my comfort zone, not enabled to sit within it. These were things that happened on a daily basis when the game was young, before Frontier started filling in the game's depths in response to player's complaints.

Now, though? This game is so absurdly generous with its rewards, so shallow in its depth, and so frugal with its risks, that I can't even start fresh with a new commander, before I find myself right back where I started... only with NPCs so absurdly easy to kill that they pop instantly. At least my original save has a high enough combat ranking that some NPCs, occasionally, give me enough reason to pause and reflect on my actions... at least when I'm in the mood for combat in the first place.
 
[..] only with NPCs so absurdly easy to kill that they pop instantly.
To be fair, you can reset your character but not your experience. Having dabbled in the evil art of ganking some years ago, I can tell you truly new players are just as easy (if not easier) to "pop" as Harmless NPCs are, which made me realize that the AI is actually pretty accurate in paralleling player skill. What the AI doesn't do is mimic the Elite combat commander who wipes his / her account and starts over as Harmless but maintains their Elite-level piloting skills.

Now if you're claiming that Elite NPCs are popping instantly, then you must be using engineering dark magics beyond my understanding (or you're targeting Sidewinders in your FDL), because this has not been my experience.
 
What caning, though? Aside from the "bullet sponge" jump at higher combat levels, everything is optional in this game. This includes things that, IMO, shouldn't be optional, which is why the "bullet sponge" jump is a problem in the first place: Frontier continually confuses freedom from consequence for freedom of action. Though admittedly, with a couple of exceptions, they did a great job on the latter.

I was speaking to your philosophy, not the game as it stands.

Having more to learn is always enjoyable. It is not necessary for failure - and punishment - to be present in order to learn (which is particularly poignant when studying something hazardous, whether it's how to use a stovetop without burning yourself, or safe operation of nuclear reactors).
Finding and providing more to learn is infinitely more valuable.

This talk of caning reminds me of that old joke: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" "Then don't do that!"

This is rambling a bit off-topic, but I had this conversation with my doctor not long ago regarding periodic food impaction. But the point of asking is not to learn what not to do, it is to understand the what and why of what is happening. Though of course the first short-term goal is to prevent the hurt, having a greater understanding of what is going on can create greater opportunity to improve the situation. (I wound up getting an endoscopy done, and following the specialist's pamphlet has negated any of the symptoms affecting me; fortunately there was no sign of anything serious, but that leaves me still not entirely sure what the cause was.)

It's one thing when the pain is due to a flaw in the game's design. The fact that ship and module prices increase exponentially, while their capabilities increased logarithmically, meant that under the original economic sim, which was far more interesting than the current version IMO, larger ships literally couldn't make a profit, especially when the luxury markets were saturated. Their expenses were too high for the mid-range precursors required for luxury good production to be profitable. If an arm is broken, then it needs to be set.

It's another when there's no in-game reason to do that in the first place. If it takes too long get to places, then stop flying so slow! If you think mining is a tedious grind, then don't do it! If it hurts when you put your hand into a fire, take it out!!!

I attribute all pains in playing games to flaws in the game design. The point of a game is to have fun. If that is not taking place, there is a flaw in said game.

Regarding the premise of working your way into an expensive, larger ship, only to discover that you can't make a profit in it - no, that is not fun and is anti-rewarding. World of Tanks did this with being to forced to play "tier 8 premium tanks" versus actually playing the actual tier 10 vehicles you had to slave away to grind for months at a time to obtain in the first place. The result was that most players had to spend at least half of their time playing in tanks that they had no interest in actually playing. Lost Ark did this as well with their approach to progression, where keeping up with late-game content meant spending more time playing on 5 alt characters than actually playing the main character you want to focus upon. These facets of existing MMO game design are no good and should be collectively put in the bin.

Luxury goods is certainly something that could use another look; but, for me, as with many aspects of the game, there's just bigger issues to be concerned with.

Frontier's solution, when some players come to them saying "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" is to drug everyone to the gills until the complaints stop. They don't bother asking questions on what "this" is. They don't investigate whether "this" is because there's something actually broken, or if "this" is self inflicted. They just drug everyone until everything is a dull haze of banality.

I don't agree. I think rather, Frontier has had an internal committee that examines the causes of the problem and goes to lengths to expose it, but then had a chair or head that refused to believe or deviate from their pre-concieved notion of the situation, resulting in a "let them eat cake" situation whilst those playing the game have either continued to declare "this hurts!" or else give up entirely.

Engineers, SLFs, ship transfers all serve as poignant examples of content that was served in spite of everything the player base said about the ideas, and turned out to be flawed in exactly the ways players said they would be upon first reveal. At least, the hubbub stirred by ship transfers occurred quickly and loudly enough that it was responded to in timely fashion.

I want to be able to consider the pros and cons of a contract, and how taking it will shape the local balance of power. I want to do an ABA cargo run, and need to adjust the proportion of commodities in my hull, based on how the market reacts to my deliveries. I want to be tempted out of my comfort zone, not enabled to sit within it. These were things that happened on a daily basis when the game was young, before Frontier started filling in the game's depths in response to player's complaints.

Now, though? This game is so absurdly generous with its rewards, so shallow in its depth, and so frugal with its risks, that I can't even start fresh with a new commander, before I find myself right back where I started... only with NPCs so absurdly easy to kill that they pop instantly. At least my original save has a high enough combat ranking that some NPCs, occasionally, give me enough reason to pause and reflect on my actions... at least when I'm in the mood for combat in the first place.

Contracts would have to exist in the first place, though I suppose you could treat 'wing missions', Powerplay, and sometimes community goals in that way. Commodities would need to have competitive profits for that to work, instead of 95% of the market commodities being entirely irrelevant for trade (which is a flaw that Fdev should really consider remedying at some point, but it is something I'd mark as lower priority). I do think the listed market supply/demand amounts should react more quickly to player actions than they do now, though they can still quickly swing while doing carrier ops.

I would caution that there is a difference between being tempted, and being pushed.

The 'shallow depth' to me is a tired and undeserved criticism of the game. It has depth and variety; what it lacks is connecting the player with it, making one's actions feel connected and impactful on the game (though that is an area of mostly narrative concern). And it has a history of new content being added with artificial limitations that get directly in the way of that. Ship crews/wings with the xp splitting being a clear example.
 
Last edited:
Commodities would need to have competitive profits for that to work, instead of 95% of the market commodities being entirely irrelevant for trade (which is a flaw that Fdev should really consider remedying at some point, but it is something I'd mark as lower priority). I do think the listed market supply/demand amounts should react more quickly to player actions than they do now, though they can still quickly swing while doing carrier ops.
What you’re describing was Version 1 of the economic sim, before Frontier took a chainsaw to it after receiving complaints from some of the Alpha testers who got used to income derived from a literal gold duplication bug. The profitability of most commodities were within a few hundred credits of each other, and the few that weren’t fed the base of production chains. Markets had a base production level, which added to supply (and increased demand of its precursor) at the rate of the economic tic, which IIRC was every 10 minutes. But commodities whose production chains were supplied would be replenished at a much faster rate, and in “real time.” There were also commodities which weren’t a part of a production chain, such as luxuries, who were only consumed at a base rate.

The discoverer of the gold duplication bug would shower gold canisters to anyone who wanted at the back of Azaban City. This was easy money, naturally, but he wasn’t always online. When he wasn’t online, people who wanted easy money would just set up a macro that would scoop up luxuries’ base production at the tic. Combine that with a five system bubble, and you had a situation where the luxury market had bottomed out.

Unless you could outrace the tic, which was entirely possible if you ignored the conventional forum wisdom at the time. You could actually get to many destinations quicker than you can today, as long as you were willing to take some risks to do so. So players like me were raking in credits much quicker than they were, but all they could see was that their profit/ton was dwindling. And since this was before the interdiction mechanic had been added to the game, the quicker you were able to fly, the fewer interdictions you faced, and the fewer potential expenses you would face.

This wouldn't have been so bad, except for the inherent flaw in the game's design: ship and module prices increased exponentially, while their capabilities increased mostly logarithmically. In other words, a ship that was twice as capable as a lesser vessel would often cost at least twelve times as much as much. Since this was at a time where operational expenses (including fuel :rolleyes:) existed, and also scaled to the cost of the ship, you had a situation where hauling twice as much cargo would increase your operational costs twelve times as much.

Small ship costs were intentionally low to allow new players to make huge mistakes without suffering huge setbacks. Medium ships, IMO at least, were just right... if you used a fuel scoop while trading. Large ships, though? Without lapping up some of that sweet duplicated gold, they'd couldn't even make a profit on bulk luxury trading.

Which, needless to say, was a problem. Frontier's solution wasn't to fix the underlying problem, but to dial base production/consumption up to eleven, and then introduce new commodities (and their production chains) that exceeded the profits gained from the old exploit, a pattern that exists to this day. Basically, Frontier took what could've been an X4 style economic sim, and transformed into one that's downright primitive in comparison: a static import/export market. Except when it comes to highly stressed markets, such as those involving CGs or places like Jameson Memorial. Only then, do you get a hint of the old economic sim, and baseline production is much faster than excess production is now.

The 'shallow depth' to me is a tired and undeserved criticism of the game. It has depth and variety; what it lacks is connecting the player with it, making one's actions feel connected and impactful on the game (though that is an area of mostly narrative concern).

I agree that there is depth and variety in this game, but there used to be more. A lot more. And this is due to Frontier's default reaction to player complaints: remove the risky but entertaining and effective options to enhance the results of the dull grindy options, or make ensure that the dull grindy options are as effective as existing exploits. As for narrative content... I play open world games like this to forge my own narrative, as opposed to being railroaded into following someone else's.

As for my "philosophy," it isn't about philosophy, but about fun. I find inevitable success to be boring, which is why I very rarely finish any game, once the outcome is no longer in doubt. Being able to fail, though? That makes an entertaining experience, a fun story, and makes success all the sweeter. Needless to say, if the failure rate is high enough, I do get frustrated. But that definitely doesn't describe this game in its current state, and hasn't for a long time.

I also enjoy being able to develop strategies, and needing to weigh my options, which also doesn't really describe this game as much as it used to. Frontier has removed much of the nuance that used to exist in the game, in response to player complaints.

Back in the day, when considering missions while manipulating the BGS, there used to be two factors to consider: profitability, and its effect on a faction's state. The former could be negative (donation missions), while some mission types would also have a negative effect on the latter. The highly profitable missions were illegal, which also had a negative effect on a faction's state. Conversely, credit donation missions also had a negative effect on a faction's state, but were effortless influence. When I was helping the brave freedom fighters resist the Evil Galactic Federation, I got much better results corrupting the Federation, feeding some of the profits to the freedom fighters, than what I would've gotten simply grinding influence for the freedom fighters.

That isn't the case anymore. Some players complained that some missions hurt the faction they were supporting, Frontier listened, and now missions only have positive effects on a faction, even the illegal and credot donation ones. Before, I had to balance a host of factors to be effective, which was fun. Now, it's simply a straight up influence grind. And of course, profits from missions are so ludicrous these days, that I can be profligate in my generosity, and still be wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice.
 
Yeah. Having played this game since the Alpha, I often find myself reminded of this song:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDZzlmGkb18


This game went from having a top tier ecomomic sim, paired to a top tier sci-fi flight sim (with working VR!), which would’ve been augmented with a political system at the local level worthy of Dune… to what we have today: an economic sim that was innovative in 1984, local politics that are a straight up influence grind, and a good (but used to be better) sci-fi flight sim… with VR!
 
What you’re describing was Version 1 of the economic sim, before Frontier took a chainsaw to it after receiving complaints from some of the Alpha testers who got used to income derived from a literal gold duplication bug. The profitability of most commodities were within a few hundred credits of each other, and the few that weren’t fed the base of production chains. Markets had a base production level, which added to supply (and increased demand of its precursor) at the rate of the economic tic, which IIRC was every 10 minutes. But commodities whose production chains were supplied would be replenished at a much faster rate, and in “real time.” There were also commodities which weren’t a part of a production chain, such as luxuries, who were only consumed at a base rate.

The discoverer of the gold duplication bug would shower gold canisters to anyone who wanted at the back of Azaban City. This was easy money, naturally, but he wasn’t always online. When he wasn’t online, people who wanted easy money would just set up a macro that would scoop up luxuries’ base production at the tic. Combine that with a five system bubble, and you had a situation where the luxury market had bottomed out.

Unless you could outrace the tic, which was entirely possible if you ignored the conventional forum wisdom at the time. You could actually get to many destinations quicker than you can today, as long as you were willing to take some risks to do so. So players like me were raking in credits much quicker than they were, but all they could see was that their profit/ton was dwindling. And since this was before the interdiction mechanic had been added to the game, the quicker you were able to fly, the fewer interdictions you faced, and the fewer potential expenses you would face.

This wouldn't have been so bad, except for the inherent flaw in the game's design: ship and module prices increased exponentially, while their capabilities increased mostly logarithmically. In other words, a ship that was twice as capable as a lesser vessel would often cost at least twelve times as much as much. Since this was at a time where operational expenses (including fuel :rolleyes:) existed, and also scaled to the cost of the ship, you had a situation where hauling twice as much cargo would increase your operational costs twelve times as much.

Small ship costs were intentionally low to allow new players to make huge mistakes without suffering huge setbacks. Medium ships, IMO at least, were just right... if you used a fuel scoop while trading. Large ships, though? Without lapping up some of that sweet duplicated gold, they'd couldn't even make a profit on bulk luxury trading.

Which, needless to say, was a problem. Frontier's solution wasn't to fix the underlying problem, but to dial base production/consumption up to eleven, and then introduce new commodities (and their production chains) that exceeded the profits gained from the old exploit, a pattern that exists to this day. Basically, Frontier took what could've been an X4 style economic sim, and transformed into one that's downright primitive in comparison: a static import/export market. Except when it comes to highly stressed markets, such as those involving CGs or places like Jameson Memorial. Only then, do you get a hint of the old economic sim, and baseline production is much faster than excess production is now.



I agree that there is depth and variety in this game, but there used to be more. A lot more. And this is due to Frontier's default reaction to player complaints: remove the risky but entertaining and effective options to enhance the results of the dull grindy options, or make ensure that the dull grindy options are as effective as existing exploits. As for narrative content... I play open world games like this to forge my own narrative, as opposed to being railroaded into following someone else's.

As for my "philosophy," it isn't about philosophy, but about fun. I find inevitable success to be boring, which is why I very rarely finish any game, once the outcome is no longer in doubt. Being able to fail, though? That makes an entertaining experience, a fun story, and makes success all the sweeter. Needless to say, if the failure rate is high enough, I do get frustrated. But that definitely doesn't describe this game in its current state, and hasn't for a long time.

I also enjoy being able to develop strategies, and needing to weigh my options, which also doesn't really describe this game as much as it used to. Frontier has removed much of the nuance that used to exist in the game, in response to player complaints.

Back in the day, when considering missions while manipulating the BGS, there used to be two factors to consider: profitability, and its effect on a faction's state. The former could be negative (donation missions), while some mission types would also have a negative effect on the latter. The highly profitable missions were illegal, which also had a negative effect on a faction's state. Conversely, credit donation missions also had a negative effect on a faction's state, but were effortless influence. When I was helping the brave freedom fighters resist the Evil Galactic Federation, I got much better results corrupting the Federation, feeding some of the profits to the freedom fighters, than what I would've gotten simply grinding influence for the freedom fighters.

That isn't the case anymore. Some players complained that some missions hurt the faction they were supporting, Frontier listened, and now missions only have positive effects on a faction, even the illegal and credot donation ones. Before, I had to balance a host of factors to be effective, which was fun. Now, it's simply a straight up influence grind. And of course, profits from missions are so ludicrous these days, that I can be profligate in my generosity, and still be wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice.
Interesting. Alpha days certainly sound like a hot mess. And it does sound like there were better ideas they could have implemented...and still could. Some "hindsight is 20/20" applies, but the fact remains, it could have been and still could be better.

I'm with you as far as narrative railroading goes, as one might observe given my responses to the thread over here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...rustrated-with-the-prolonged-narrative.605945

Not to be picky, but a philosophy about fun is still a philosophy, and we have been debating this philosophy for quite some length now. 😉

Your success ought to feel self-evident, rather than inevitable. If you put in the time and the effort to succeed, I think you ought to be able to enjoy your success. Of course, not all games succeed in making success enjoyable, and many do little to even attempt to, as such.

Points of failure ought to come through organic mistakes and decisions on the part of the player - not force-injected by artificial means that, most often, don't allow the player to do anything about it. (Which, really, accurately describes the state of most competitive gaming at the moment being infested with cheating of widely varying degrees, and also applies to my view on card games, which I learned the hard way that I need to avoid, for my own sanity.)

Not for nothing, but I see little-to-no merit, in terms of strategizing and option-weighing, where things like navigational module QOL features and crew XP splitting are concerned. Such 'nuances' are of paltry value at best.

I do agree, at least in principle, where other aspects of the game are concerned. But, you have to admit, the idea that donating to a faction is detrimental to that faction is the reverse of intuitive game behavior. If methods of corruption are to be present, it should at least make sense. There's surely better possibilities for mission types and the results they have upon factions. (And the everpresent spectre of botting abuse reinforces the issue of the results of your efforts being intuitive...as trying to compete with that would become effectively impossible, in the case where results remain nonintuitive.)
 
I do agree, at least in principle, where other aspects of the game are concerned. But, you have to admit, the idea that donating to a faction is detrimental to that faction is the reverse of intuitive game behavior. If methods of corruption are to be present, it should at least make sense. There's surely better possibilities for mission types and the results they have upon factions. (And the everpresent spectre of botting abuse reinforces the issue of the results of your efforts being intuitive...as trying to compete with that would become effectively impossible, in the case where results remain nonintuitive.)

Here comes a surprise: I disagree. ;)

Version one of the BGS made a lot more sense to me, intuitively. What is the “bust” state of a minor faction? It’s a reputation for unable to fulfill its obligations. Donation missions are a faction asking for outside parties to bail them out of the situation they’re in. So the Pilots Federation gives them the equivalent of a low credit rating.

The people would be indifferent to where the aide came from, though, so influence goes up.

Now, though? It’s like someone reconsolidating their credit card debts, and having their credit rating go up.
 
Version one of the BGS made a lot more sense to me, intuitively. What is the “bust” state of a minor faction? It’s a reputation for unable to fulfill its obligations. Donation missions are a faction asking for outside parties to bail them out of the situation they’re in. So the Pilots Federation gives them the equivalent of a low credit rating.

The people would be indifferent to where the aide came from, though, so influence goes up.

Now, though? It’s like someone reconsolidating their credit card debts, and having their credit rating go up.

One of the things I like about X4 is that there are no discrete "states" like famine, boom, etc. This idea of states is very reductionist and binary. In X4, if there is a lack of food or medicine, population (ie - workforce) declines, which has the ripple effect of productivity declining and food prices increasing. It's much more analog and "tidal", as in, the "state" of a system tends to ebb and flow. There's also a more obvious interdependence between systems, since a demand in one system will affect supply in another system, making for a complex web of interdependency.

That's not to say that X4 is perfect, since it basically ignores supply and demand from planets themselves AFAIK - all trade is station-to-station. The vastly smaller number of systems in X4 compared to Elite also makes it easier to have a detailed, dynamic, and interconnected economic simulator. Elite could never replicate X4 exactly (especially NPC traffic) due to the number of systems and the complexity of entire worlds being part of the equation. I do think, however, a much more dynamic and "analog" BGS system is possible, had Frontier wanted to go in that direction, using simple spreadsheet-style formulas and supply-and-demand logistics. It's the over-simplistic and yet strangely complex (from a "what do players do to manipulate it") aspect of Elite's BGS that killed my interest in playing or even paying attention to the BGS. That's why today Elite is more of an arcade game than a simulator for me personally.

Something on my bucket list of "must do before I die" projects is to write my own BGS simulator. I'd probably start with just a few systems from Elite, using those systems and some of Elite's gameplay as a model to build on, but I'd make my own list of commodities and concepts / rules of economics. This would purely be a numbers simulator emulating NPC traffic, a kind of marriage of X4 and Elite, expressed in charts and graphs. It would be great fun to set up rules and flows and then poke at it with "what it" scenarios and see how the simulation responds.
 
Yeah. Having played this game since the Alpha, I often find myself reminded of this song:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDZzlmGkb18


This game went from having a top tier ecomomic sim, paired to a top tier sci-fi flight sim (with working VR!), which would’ve been augmented with a political system at the local level worthy of Dune… to what we have today: an economic sim that was innovative in 1984, local politics that are a straight up influence grind, and a good (but used to be better) sci-fi flight sim… with VR!
I knda regret not looking at the sim at that time. Well, not really - I probably would just be butthurt about it.
 
One of the things I like about X4 is that there are no discrete "states" like famine, boom, etc. This idea of states is very reductionist and binary. In X4, if there is a lack of food or medicine, population (ie - workforce) declines, which has the ripple effect of productivity declining and food prices increasing. It's much more analog and "tidal", as in, the "state" of a system tends to ebb and flow. There's also a more obvious interdependence between systems, since a demand in one system will affect supply in another system, making for a complex web of interdependency.
My understanding is that in the original version, the Economic Sim was supposed to be the primary driver of BGS states… which are less about a faction’s actual condition, and more a summary of how well a faction is paying for various Pilots Federation services.

It used to be possible, for example, to drive a faction into outbreak by dumping tons of bio waste onto markets that export the stuff.

But once Frontier eviscerated the EconSim, it was feeding the BGS garbage data, so it was deemphasized in favor of mission outcomes. 🤷‍♀️
 
It used to be possible, for example, to drive a faction into outbreak by dumping tons of bio waste onto markets that export the stuff.

I just realized that the “Cerberus Plague” back in 3301 was probably the BGS going haywire, thanks to biowaste buildup from FDev going all “Saw” on the EconSim. And naturally, the “cure” was them patching out that path to outbreaks. God, I wish we had the original dev team back. Regardless of their flaws, they recognized the value of a good narrative…
 
On Steam the numbers are the absolute lowest in 4 years and they keep falling (Peak viewers, Average viewers). Steam is a good representation of the state of Elite. The writing is on the wall. People are leaving Elite and I think it's because FDev "checked out" over a year ago and is just going through the motions at this point.
Steam numbers have been pretty static for a while now and they do not keep falling, they have been lower before, but as they are not dependent on numbers playing, but purchases, it may not be an issue. There is no writing on the wall at the moment.

Give the player base what it wants: Ship interiors, Full VR in Odyssey on foot, an actual crime and punishment that can make ganking seriously risky, more in game aids like the EDDB.io etc, new ships, revisit last gen consoles for Odyssey or at least commit to current gen consoles, fix planet tiling, base building, better Odyssey planet generations tech (rivers, clouds, oceans, caves, storms), fix the on foot AI to be actual threats, and finally make Odyssey play at 60 FPS consistently on recommended spec machines!
How do you know what the player base wants? From what I have seen, people just want different stuff. But your list is pretty massive and many of those are huge to get done right. For all we know, they may well be working on some of this but we won't know until later.
 
The people that I interact with would be (and have been*) a serious motivation to come back and play. The chance to run into them in-game, to have even just a few nice words together in chat, to perhaps goof around together, maybe even with a useful purpose in mind. That is what pulls ...hard.

* recently was away for several months so I know firsthand how and what I felt.
 
One of the things I like about X4 is that there are no discrete "states" like famine, boom, etc. This idea of states is very reductionist and binary. In X4, if there is a lack of food or medicine, population (ie - workforce) declines, which has the ripple effect of productivity declining and food prices increasing. It's much more analog and "tidal", as in, the "state" of a system tends to ebb and flow. There's also a more obvious interdependence between systems, since a demand in one system will affect supply in another system, making for a complex web of interdependency.

That's not to say that X4 is perfect, since it basically ignores supply and demand from planets themselves AFAIK - all trade is station-to-station. The vastly smaller number of systems in X4 compared to Elite also makes it easier to have a detailed, dynamic, and interconnected economic simulator. Elite could never replicate X4 exactly (especially NPC traffic) due to the number of systems and the complexity of entire worlds being part of the equation. I do think, however, a much more dynamic and "analog" BGS system is possible, had Frontier wanted to go in that direction, using simple spreadsheet-style formulas and supply-and-demand logistics. It's the over-simplistic and yet strangely complex (from a "what do players do to manipulate it") aspect of Elite's BGS that killed my interest in playing or even paying attention to the BGS. That's why today Elite is more of an arcade game than a simulator for me personally.

Something on my bucket list of "must do before I die" projects is to write my own BGS simulator. I'd probably start with just a few systems from Elite, using those systems and some of Elite's gameplay as a model to build on, but I'd make my own list of commodities and concepts / rules of economics. This would purely be a numbers simulator emulating NPC traffic, a kind of marriage of X4 and Elite, expressed in charts and graphs. It would be great fun to set up rules and flows and then poke at it with "what it" scenarios and see how the simulation responds.

Yeah, the 'states' thing has never been something easy to grasp, I feel like. I have to respect Darkfyre's ability to rationalize it, but I can't come to terms with "I make a contribution to a faction = the faction is worse off". There's been a number of things with the BGS system over the years that just seem backwards or off-kilter somehow (and from what I spy here and there with people still interested in BGS wizardry, there still is a significant number of those things).

Good luck to you if you do embark on that project; that might make for a fun website down the road, if it comes to that. Maybe even something RPG groups could make use of?
 
I have to respect Darkfyre's ability to rationalize it, but I can't come to terms with "I make a contribution to a faction = the faction is worse off".

I’ve always viewed faction states as less about the faction’s actual condition, and more about the Pilots Federation’s information on how easy it is for its members to make money, and what type of activities will be plentiful.

  • Boom - “There’s a lot of money, and little sense, here. They’re easy to fleece.”
  • Bust - “They’re more likely to ask you for money, than the other way around.”
  • Civil Unrest - “They’re desperate for armed ships and aggressive commanders at the moment.”
  • Outbreak - “You can make a killing extorting money for meds here.”
And so on.

In a universe where Frontier had fixed the overpriced ships and modules problem, rather than kneecapping their Economic Sim, I think faction states (and the missions that flow from them) would’ve made a lot more sense. But Frontier had already established their pattern of appeasing complaints, rather than fixing the underlying flaw, before the game even reached beta testing. Which makes me sad.
 
What you’re describing was Version 1 of the economic sim, before Frontier took a chainsaw to it after receiving complaints from some of the Alpha testers who got used to income derived from a literal gold duplication bug. The profitability of most commodities were within a few hundred credits of each other, and the few that weren’t fed the base of production chains. Markets had a base production level, which added to supply (and increased demand of its precursor) at the rate of the economic tic, which IIRC was every 10 minutes. But commodities whose production chains were supplied would be replenished at a much faster rate, and in “real time.” There were also commodities which weren’t a part of a production chain, such as luxuries, who were only consumed at a base rate.

The discoverer of the gold duplication bug would shower gold canisters to anyone who wanted at the back of Azaban City. This was easy money, naturally, but he wasn’t always online. When he wasn’t online, people who wanted easy money would just set up a macro that would scoop up luxuries’ base production at the tic. Combine that with a five system bubble, and you had a situation where the luxury market had bottomed out.

Unless you could outrace the tic, which was entirely possible if you ignored the conventional forum wisdom at the time. You could actually get to many destinations quicker than you can today, as long as you were willing to take some risks to do so. So players like me were raking in credits much quicker than they were, but all they could see was that their profit/ton was dwindling. And since this was before the interdiction mechanic had been added to the game, the quicker you were able to fly, the fewer interdictions you faced, and the fewer potential expenses you would face.

This wouldn't have been so bad, except for the inherent flaw in the game's design: ship and module prices increased exponentially, while their capabilities increased mostly logarithmically. In other words, a ship that was twice as capable as a lesser vessel would often cost at least twelve times as much as much. Since this was at a time where operational expenses (including fuel :rolleyes:) existed, and also scaled to the cost of the ship, you had a situation where hauling twice as much cargo would increase your operational costs twelve times as much.

Small ship costs were intentionally low to allow new players to make huge mistakes without suffering huge setbacks. Medium ships, IMO at least, were just right... if you used a fuel scoop while trading. Large ships, though? Without lapping up some of that sweet duplicated gold, they'd couldn't even make a profit on bulk luxury trading.

Which, needless to say, was a problem. Frontier's solution wasn't to fix the underlying problem, but to dial base production/consumption up to eleven, and then introduce new commodities (and their production chains) that exceeded the profits gained from the old exploit, a pattern that exists to this day. Basically, Frontier took what could've been an X4 style economic sim, and transformed into one that's downright primitive in comparison: a static import/export market. Except when it comes to highly stressed markets, such as those involving CGs or places like Jameson Memorial. Only then, do you get a hint of the old economic sim, and baseline production is much faster than excess production is now.



I agree that there is depth and variety in this game, but there used to be more. A lot more. And this is due to Frontier's default reaction to player complaints: remove the risky but entertaining and effective options to enhance the results of the dull grindy options, or make ensure that the dull grindy options are as effective as existing exploits. As for narrative content... I play open world games like this to forge my own narrative, as opposed to being railroaded into following someone else's.

As for my "philosophy," it isn't about philosophy, but about fun. I find inevitable success to be boring, which is why I very rarely finish any game, once the outcome is no longer in doubt. Being able to fail, though? That makes an entertaining experience, a fun story, and makes success all the sweeter. Needless to say, if the failure rate is high enough, I do get frustrated. But that definitely doesn't describe this game in its current state, and hasn't for a long time.

I also enjoy being able to develop strategies, and needing to weigh my options, which also doesn't really describe this game as much as it used to. Frontier has removed much of the nuance that used to exist in the game, in response to player complaints.

Back in the day, when considering missions while manipulating the BGS, there used to be two factors to consider: profitability, and its effect on a faction's state. The former could be negative (donation missions), while some mission types would also have a negative effect on the latter. The highly profitable missions were illegal, which also had a negative effect on a faction's state. Conversely, credit donation missions also had a negative effect on a faction's state, but were effortless influence. When I was helping the brave freedom fighters resist the Evil Galactic Federation, I got much better results corrupting the Federation, feeding some of the profits to the freedom fighters, than what I would've gotten simply grinding influence for the freedom fighters.

That isn't the case anymore. Some players complained that some missions hurt the faction they were supporting, Frontier listened, and now missions only have positive effects on a faction, even the illegal and credot donation ones. Before, I had to balance a host of factors to be effective, which was fun. Now, it's simply a straight up influence grind. And of course, profits from missions are so ludicrous these days, that I can be profligate in my generosity, and still be wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice.
Being able to fail? After playing hundreds of hours in an online game with no save slots? I doubt many people would like anything about that. Me neither. Of course it's nice to see something turn to ashes and say "and that's that" then restart over or reload. I have a choice. You don't have a choice without a backup. You have to eat the crab that is fed to you and that's that.
 
Risk is also a finicky thing. Risk is different per player. Usually - and we see it with ED, too - risk is just slapping on cheap health to the enemies and when you're lucky someone tweaks the spawn table. Usually it's just damage sponging.
 
Good luck to you if you do embark on that project; that might make for a fun website down the road, if it comes to that. Maybe even something RPG groups could make use of?
I would be using Elite more as a source of inspiration rather than a full template. There's a lot I feel Elite does wrong that I would just throw out. For example, the ability to buy Uranium from the local hardware store but not iron. Having to mine my own iron makes sense in a game like Elder Scrolls (though I can buy iron in that game if I want), but it makes zero sense in the world of Elite. I also take issue with the very low cost of rare metals like gold and lithium, both of which play crucial roles in advanced technology. It's not like there is a space goose out there laying golden asteroids. So the market I come up with will not be Elite's market.

Elite also ignores supply-and-demand when it comes to very fundamental things like fuel, ship repairs, ship construction, etc. In X4, it's possible to have your ship stuck a hangar waiting for repairs because the station has run out of the parts it needs. I usually don't trade "for fun", but I'll jump in a trader to pick up some hull parts so my mechanic can fix my combat ship and get me back in the fight. There's nothing like this in Elite - stations store an infinite amount of ships, modules, fuel, parts, etc with zero demand on the market AFAIK. The more you think about it, the more you realize just how tinker-toy it all is.

TL;DR - whatever economic / "BGS" simulator I write for fun will be very different than anything in Elite, despite getting some inspiration from Elite (and X4 and games like Transport Fever).
 
Top Bottom