Stuggling With For Purpose In ED

[sbdags]

I like reading people's personal narratives. I'd gladly read more from several of those who post their stories on here. But I think that for the time investment required to derive them from play... well...

I could play a boardgame to stimulate my imagination. Could try Galaxy Trucker. Multiplayer, fully offline, and in half an hour or an hour I'd have a story just as full of pirates and asteroids, narrow escapes, abject failures, and heroic deeds, as I would in 10 hours playing Elite, with the advantage of there being no down time, no waiting, no tedious faux "simulation" to get in the way.

Or I could read a novel: Stephen Donaldson's "Gap" series, or Ken MacLeod's "Fall Revolution", and see grand space operatics played out on a lavish scale, full of surprises, ambiguity, drama and invention. I think I was hoping that Elite would make me a protagonist in stories equivalently involved, charged with political ramifications and satire, with all the traditional imaginative thrills of science fiction.

But Elite is just not that rewarding, not that thrilling. It's bureaucratic, leaden, somehow not only earth-bound but narrow-minded and provincial. It comes up significantly short of other ways of stimulating imaginative engagement and it's a weakly drawn science fiction, with little of the risk and urgency which has made the best sci fi of the last 30 years or so great, whatever the medium. The more critically I think about it, actually, the less well Elite seems to stand up -- I'd kinda hoped it would be the other way round.

For you maybe. But you do not speak for me.

Hands down the most engrossing, rich and involving computer game I have played in the last 5+ years. I absolutely love the mechanics of it and it is wonderful to me that there is no story and I generate my own. I'm close to 300 hours into the game currently.

So there you go - different strokes for different folks.

 

[chagnampra]

Frontier have given us the tools, it's up to the players to make of it what they will. There will no doubt be updates and expansions as time goes on, but don't expect a channelled story-driven experience because it's just not that sort of game. Personally, I like doing my own thing and then checking GALNET to place my actions in a larger context. Sometimes, what I read will inform me about another direction I could possibly take. Also, I don't mind allowing my imagination to fill in the gaps. It's tough to get freeform gameplay right. Give FD time and I'm sure they'll refine the experience; but don't expect the core gameplay to change radically.

Anyway, I'm having a great time! You can't please everyone, I suppose...

 

[Shakespeare]

Firstly, I'm pleased you're having fun. Of course people's tastes are different.

That's what makes them interesting to talk about: comparing experiences and thoughts, coming to new views of things, is constructive and useful activity. Just announcing "different strokes" isn't satisfying, at least not to me.

Have you never had your opinion of something changed in conversation? I have, many times, been persuaded to admire something I'd not previously admired, or to see the flaws in something I'd thought flawless. I think it's important to talk about these things, otherwise it's hard to figure out what it is we like, and why, to grow and mature as consumers and perhaps also as producers.

What games would you compare Elite with? For me it's underlying faction mechanics don't compare well with those of Mount and Blade, which I keep coming back to as a game of the kind Elite might have been -- but Elite is more like Wurm online...

 

[Muthax]

If you didnt know it, most of the "average players" already turn more towards SC then ED.
Personally, im one of the only truly smart people who will play and enjoy both these titles

Yeah I thought the biggest advantage for ED (for me at least) was that most people were going to avoid it because it's so niche but I see that they rather buy it and then try to turn it into ... crap

 

[bassman]

You do realise that all previous Elite games were the same format right ?

There was no story line to them no end game they are the true sandbox.

Some people I swear have no imagination of their own and need others to hold their hands.

Can we desist with this "hand holding" and "no imagination" and "these things were never supposed to be part of the game" rubbish.

What the game is currently lacking is laid out in great detail here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7494
In particular we currently only have "tier 3" transient NPCs, essentially FD have made no progress in this area in the last 9 months other than a few obviously scripted references to faction leaders.

And here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6305
Yes there has been some small progress here although we have maybe 10% of whats described at best.

Those of use looking for more depth and interactivity dont need canned stories and scripted quests, we need what has been outlined above in the DDF to be implemented, the "dynamic universe" that FD keep telling people they are buying into but have yet to deliver in any meaningful way, Oh and some decent multiplayer facilities as well.

 

[WeirdWizard]

Reading these forums I can't help but keeping being reminded about the story "The Emperors new clothes."

I mean this is the new Elite game right? Its the 20 years in the making legacy of some of the most treasured games from our childhoods. Its a full scale "simulation" of our galaxy, you can visit all those stars you see in the night sky. Its got to be amazing, if you can't see it then... then... then you' must be totally lacking in imagination...

I know I'm being a little harsh, different strokes for different blokes and all, but really if you take away the online part (Online worlds sounded like a great idea 15 years ago, the reality however has turned out rather disappointing) then Elite really should be right up my alley. I've been playing D&D and other pen and paper RPGs all my life, I DM for half the year, I love open world games, I love wandering around without being led by the nose, I love adventuring and telling my own story in my head as I go. But I just find ED leaves me cold after a while, if I can't get into it then god knows how more main stream gamers are going to react.

 

[Arkantes]

Can we desist with this "hand holding" and "no imagination" and "these things were never supposed to be part of the game" rubbish.

What the game is currently lacking is laid out in great detail here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7494
In particular we currently only have "tier 3" transient NPCs, essentially FD have made no progress in this area in the last 9 months other than a few obviously scripted references to faction leaders.

And here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6305
Yes there has been some small progress here although we have maybe 10% of whats described at best.

Those of use looking for more depth and interactivity dont need canned stories and scripted quests, we need what has been outlined above in the DDF to be implemented, the "dynamic universe" that FD keep telling people they are buying into but have yet to deliver in any meaningful way, Oh and some decent multiplayer facilities as well.

Exactly, it got absolutely nothing to do with premade, scripted storylines, it's all about the lack of soul of the universe. There's far too little interactivity with it, no feedback, and a great deal of obviously artificial mechanisms.

The galaxy is currently dead (or not alive yet) and is just using a few clever mirror tricks to pretend it's not, but when you look a bit deeper there's just too much that doesn't make sense. NPCs have no persistence, often have nonsensical equipment (NPC miners don't have refineries...) and USS just remind me of when I was playing Pokemon (many, many years ago, and it was still more interesting and not as tedious as USS).
All we're actually playing with are a few macroscopic variables that we can shift a tiny bit, but that's not enough to make the universe feel alive as there's basically nothing really happening. FD needs to write a system that will properly generate local news and events every single day (because that's what happens in the real world).

 

[neXib]

But to get to your point more directly....when you use terms like hand holding and harsh learning curve which are abstract opinions...you are dodging I think the real true reason for making the game what it is. And that I think is to make it so foreign and unpleasant for a younger generation than almost no one but those who played the original could stomach such a throw back in environment. Decisions like the lack of chat and so obviously intended to weed out anyone outside our age group that it the game might as well never be sold to anyone under 35.

Again, don't get me wrong, I don't judge. I just call a spade a spade and that is how I see Elites development. Its unfortunate another generation will never get to experience that by this game being a bridge but instead is a wall for the older "exclusive" founders club gamers where admission is so very exclusive.

I have never played the Elite games before, they never worked, in fact some of them are legendary for not working for half the people that tried them on PC

So clearly, the game is not just for those people that enjoyed them in the 80s/90s. But that said, I'm an extremely impatient gamer, I hate games where you have to retry 100 times because the save point is 5km behind you. But in this game I think the risk fits the purpose, so it feels right, it feels ok to take the risk. (with meeting so few players maybe the risk aren't really there though, unless you go without shields and weapons as I occasionally do)

I don't think you remove another generation, but I think in general it's a problem with the form that everyone thinks we all want full deathmatch whenever we ask for multiplayer. I'd love to see more and better communication too, but also things that encourage banding together. That means higher risk NPC's, ability to wing up that they are working on etc. If I met some player armed to the teeth around every corner I wouldn't play Open play.

As a guy that works with usability and GUI's I can definitely tell you that noone has a clue when they open this game. I figured out a lot on my own, but I also asked many questions. I've learned in my work that many many percentages of people don't ask the questions, they just mentally give up. So I agree they are playing with fire in some regards when it comes to pulling in some players.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

-- Deleted --

 

[Serkor]

We are just in the initial phase. We all know that the game is not fully done. We also know that Frontier made the game they wanted and will not alter the core.

- Some people will find it is their kind of game and will stick to it through the future developments ( I'm already happy even in this early state )
- Some people will be disappointed because they will not find it to be what they thought it would be ( from misunderstanding or for too much projecting of their own definition of "fun" ) and they will leave for good rather quickly.
- Some people will not enjoy it now but think it will get better and will go play something else and come back in a few months.

Nothing new, that's what happens with every game release...

 

[philux]

I don't agree at all! We're talking space combat sim here and i guess you're refering to stratospheric combat sim. Apples and oranges....

To call ED even a simulator is laughable (even the devs stated multiple times that they intentionally didn't simulate actual Zero-G flight physics accurately). Google and install Falcon 4 BMS (it's free), try a manual ramp start, take-off and landing. Then please come back and tell me again that there isn't at least 10 times more to consider than in ED with a straight face. I'm waiting.

 

[Pomerlaw]

I enjoy the game for what it is.

New features are coming.

 

[DieScream]

The game was released bare-bones, early and unfinished. The devs did it on purpose, assuming that players will simply eat the cost and wait until they finish the job, should they do so. That's gaming today.

The frothing fans who blindly defend this state of the game are exactly the reason FD and other devs continue to abuse the players for profit.

 

[Serkor]

Nobody is forced to play or even buy the game...

 

[Muthax]

The game was released bare-bones, early and unfinished. The devs did it on purpose, assuming that players will simply eat the cost and wait until they finish the job, should they do so. That's gaming today.

The frothing fans who blindly defend this state of the game are exactly the reason FD and other devs continue to abuse the players for profit.

You have no idea of what you are talking about. yeah, the 'wings' are missing but the game was always supposed to be more of a tool kit. This is the game the backers wanted. Evidently not the one you did. That's not an excuse to come here calling 'fanbois' the people who backing THIS idea made the game possible

Inform yourself before insulting others, please
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=36

 

[amigacooke]

The frothing fans who blindly defend this state of the game are exactly the reason FD and other devs continue to abuse the players for profit.

And what's your excuse for abusing the players?

 

[BigPickle]

It makes me shake my head is all I can say, when I see people getting all precious over their beloved game.... that somebody else built. Truth is we buy a game on the blurb or the sell point, right now I would like to know how you blaze your own trail, to what and where and of course the best question of all WHY?

Why bother to make the effort to trade for hours on end or mine for hours on end, dogfight with AI's that just jump away when taking heavy damage. There is no goal, there is no reason at all. This game is aimless right now. That does not bother me other than in a monetary was since I paid £100 for this.

All those chucks getting worked up because people feel this way, think to yourselves, why am I getting worked up and resorting to petty spite it hit at those "branded" haters.
It shouldnt be you that cares what anyone else thinks but, maybe it lays in you not having the confidence in FD to pull these people back into Elite and the fear is the game may die perhaps?

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

It makes me shake my head is all I can say, when I see people getting all precious over their beloved game.... that somebody else built. Truth is we buy a game on the blurb or the sell point, right now I would like to know how you blaze your own trail, to what and where and of course the best question of all WHY?

Why bother to make the effort to trade for hours on end or mine for hours on end, dogfight with AI's that just jump away when taking heavy damage. There is no goal, there is no reason at all. This game is aimless right now. That does not bother me other than in a monetary was since I paid £100 for this.

All those chucks getting worked up because people feel this way, think to yourselves, why am I getting worked up and resorting to petty spite it hit at those "branded" haters.
It shouldnt be you that cares what anyone else thinks but, maybe it lays in you not having the confidence in FD to pull these people back into Elite and the fear is the game may die perhaps?

The goal is to have fun, if you're not don't play. I'm having fun with what we have. If I wasn't I'd play something else. I'm looking forward to how things develop over the coming months but even what we have now I find highly entertaining.

 

[HSeldon]

First of all, thank you SheepKnell for the TIME AND EFFORT invested in the attempt to INSPIRE people to find their own path. I could not have written it myself, but in my opinion it is hands down the best possible answer to the OP. Thank you!

There is a very negative post in this thread that made me want to answer to it. This game is not our game. We backed it, we tesetd it, we gave TIME AND EFFORT to help improve it, but time and time again David Braben has stressed that it is the game HE WANTS. So really, in my humble opinion, the only valid question regarding the content and nature of the game is: Did you listen to him describe HIS game and then find you like it enough to buy it?

I listened, and having started my ELITE experience on the BBC in 84, I can easily relate to it. The feeling of being a very small part of a vast universe, the immersion and sense of scale is a big objective of the game. This, again in my opinion, is absolutely contrary to having content lined up on a pre-defined trail to "progress" along. Following a pre-defined path limits your experience of the environment and to my mind would prevent you being immersed in something huge. The magic of ELITE to me is that somewhere, at some point in time while you are going about your business, something enters the picture unexpectedly. A mission, a message .. an encounter. Something .. and it beinng rare and unexpected and interesting are what I loved and love about ELITE.

I found that just going about my business can "lead" to stuff happening. In a way, thats also what SheepKnell's story tells. I for one really wouldnt want this to have been the "Rebel Assault" approach (showing my age again there ).