Supercruising to another star system reveals design flaws

That's not what they seem to say. Everything they have been doing: how they improved the skyboxes to creating more seamless jumpgate effects points to a desire to create the impression of one seamless space.
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OK then. Let's assume a single galaxy, with, say, 10000 players moving about in it. No problem for the server. But how do you convey the position and vector of each of these players to, well, each of these players, second by second? You don't of course; you set some visual range for each player, and for each player cull all the other player data that is out of range (players too far away to be relevant) and only pass on to each player the positions and vectors of players nearby. But to do that, you need to process 9999 positions from the perspective of each of the 10000 players: 99990000 comparisons per second. If there are ten players within range of each other, that is 9 sets of data, per second of each player's position and vector and status to pass on to each player. If there are 100 players, 99 sets down the pipe: position, vector, ship status etc. 1000 players close enough together? 999 sets of data, per second, for each player. That's quite some bandwidth.
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In Eve Online you have systems like Oursulaert which would have a couple of thousand players passing through every hour (it was on some jumpgate crossroad) and it was severely laggy. And Eve Online ships move more like chess pieces than dogfighting jets. There is much less position and vector data to handle. In the end Eve Online changed the jumpgate routes.

Even Space Engine won't be coded in this way. All games have smokes and mirrors and instances of somekind no matter how seamless they appear - they just hide it well. Even Minecraft doesn't load its entire (almost infinite) world at once! Computers are quite capable - its just the lack of memory.

Fact is the world space already EXISTS and Frontier can already cope with these vast distances. The evidence is there that this will be fixed.

You can fly to other stars there is just no assets being loaded. And you can fly there with me. There is no multiplayer limitation and there is no engine limitation. We are just stuck in the same instance in which we started our journey in. Frontier just need to find an elegant solution to get us into a new instance as we slowly approach the destination.

Number one reason it hasn't been fixed yet is that Frontier want to find a way to re-render the skybox first - it just hasn't been their priority right now and maybe it never will be. But if I know David Braben I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't just as frustrated about these little issues of realism (or lack of) as many of us are.
 
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You really haven't a clue. Nobody is suggesting this. Even Space Engine won't be coded in this way.

Fact is the world space already EXISTS and Frontier can already cope with these vast distances. The evidence is there that this will be fixed.

You can fly to other stars there is just no assets being loaded. And you can fly there with me. There is no multiplayer limitation and there is no engine limitation. Frontier just need to find an elegant solution to get us into a new instance as we slowly approach the destination.

Number one reason it hasn't been fixed yet is that Frontier want to find a way to re-render the skybox first - it just hasn't been their priority right now.

That is a totally different approach: a seamless transition between instances rather than cramming everything in one huge instance. I see what you mean by it being a skybox issue now. I can imagine some obstacles there, but much more solvable ones (and I agree that there are some rendering issues there, with nebulae looking somehow rougher when rendered in space than on the map). In which case I obviously misunderstood you and was wrong, and I apologise for my irate shouting.
 
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That is a totally different approach: a seamless transition between instances rather than cramming everything in one huge instance. I see what you mean by it being a skybox issue now. I can imagine some obstacles there, but much more solvable ones (and I agree that there are some rendering issues there, with nebulae looking somehow rougher when rendered in space than on the map). In which case I obviously misunderstood you and was wrong, and I apologise for my irate shouting.

I actually edited my post a bit as I was unnecessarily being rude and shouting myself :) I guess we are just all passionate about the game.
 
We are. :) I'm an '84 --the game is practically part of my childhood.
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Which means, of course, at the age of 48 I should have behaved wiser than I did. :)
 
Instancing is no excuse.

There could be ways to add neighboring object into you instance and transfer you to it seamlessly.

Just yesterday i was hauling luxury from a starport to a luxury point only 0.49ls away, once it put me 1.1km away of the point and there was no ships, that's just wrong, i can shoot at someone 2km away but if i exit 1.1km away from a point theres nothing, only the vacuum of space.
 
(and yet happens in solo mode....)
Solo mode still uses multiplayer instancing, it just never tries to match you with anybody else.
Instancing is no excuse.

There could be ways to add neighboring object into you instance and transfer you to it seamlessly.
Maybe they could, but it seems like a lot of work to support an edge case literally no one will encounter in the course of normal play.

The only people who notice this are people who feel like leaving their ship flying in one direction for 24 hours. Wouldn't you rather they spend man-hours on things that will make the game better?
 
Really? Is that really the only possibility? You don't think that maybe if it were as easy as "Space Engine does it, QED" that FD couldn't have figured out a way? Or hired someone who could? You don't think that maybe the reason Space Engine is called Space Engine might be because it is an engine, not a full game, running on today's hardware, using a complex flight model, AI, p2p networked combat, collision detection, evolving economic and political models, and all the other stuff that you probably don't even know E: D is doing under the hood?

Yes, it is technically possible to have a seamless interstellar graphics engine. But that doesn't come close to implying that such an engine would be technically feasible within the scope of everything else built on top of it.

Sheesh! How did we ever get this hubristic?

Umm, a software's scope of functions are limited by its programmers' objectives and their abilities to fulfill those objectives, not the name or appellation it's marketed under.

Besides, games are built upon 'engines' (ED's is called COBRA, and its astronomical engine is called Stellar Forge). Functions and scripts etc. operating within these engines are subject to their limitations, not the other way around.

And anyway, i gave another example, Noctis, which is a full game (though again, dependent upon an engine (and not, say, a software classification)). Your 'logic' is purely semantics, guesswork and cynicism. Your basic point is that you believe it's impossible, not that it wouldn't be an improvement.

No, FD have done it this way because they've simply expanded upon the same core structure of E1 & 2, which both had the same restriction. It's an inhereted design constraint, not a practical limitation.
 
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literally no one will encounter in the course of normal play

Fact is that many people have done it for the fun of it. This debate has come up many times in the last year because people have done it and found themselves disappointed when reaching their destination. Some stars are less than an hour away in SC.

literally no one will ever explore the majority of the galaxy but it didn't stop Frontier wanting to model 400 billion stars!
 
Fact is that many people have done it for the fun of it. This debate has come up many times in the last year because people have done it and found themselves disappointed when reaching their destination. Some stars are less than an hour away in SC.

literally no one will ever explore the majority of the galaxy but it didn't stop Frontier wanting to model 400 billion stars!
For the fun of it isn't normal play though, it's someone setting out to deliberately push the boundaries of normal play in a way that they expect will break the game. And lo, it breaks.

It would be nice, but I don't think it'd add anything meaningful. A feature that requires a game to be left running without any player input for a couple of real life days (or even an hour quite frankly) isn't good game design. So why bother when there's so many other areas that need attention?

edit: 400 billion stars is meaningful. It means exploration is more than some contrived mini game, and that you're actually setting out into the unknown and seeing things no other human being has seen.
 
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Request for Debriefing Authorization 157-114-3: Approved

I recall having to tell this sad truth to another CMDR, so I shall recount it here.

Frame shift drives actually don't just allow you to travel to other star systems. They tear a hole in the fabric of reality and drop you into a parallel dimension at the set coordinates. It may seem ridiculous, but propelling an object such as a space ship over the vast distances of light years in a matter of seconds is virtually impossible from what we've determined with our current technology. It's much easier to instead, shunt the ship into a parallel dimension so long as the dimension isn't out of phase by more than a 1.45^-13 variance.

The frame shift's phase capacitors match the phase angle of the desired dimensional plane and nudge the ship through the extra-dimensional rift at the exact moment convergence. You see, we discovered years ago that there was an infinite number of parallel dimensions that vibrated within certain frequencies within the space that our universe exists. The frequencies are mathematically predictable and have, to date, never deviated from their normal state. This discovery prompted us to design an experimental device to shift your frame of reference into another one of these planes, in the hopes of understanding how all these planes are bound together.

What we discovered, was that the F.R.P.S.D. (or Frame of Reference Planar Shifting Device now commonly referred to buy its shortened name, the Frame Shift Drive) was only able to allow passage to locations of high gravitational concentrations. Under further review, it was found that the binding agent between these dimensional planes was gravity itself. With our vast galactic database, we were able to determine that the vast gravity wells of each galaxies' super massive black hole anchored these planes together on a universal scale. The further you traveled from the galactic core, the greater the phase angles of the vibrations. Alternatively as you got closer to the galactic core, the vibrations became far less perceivable until it seemed that there was almost a perfect overlap at the event horizon. The event horizon, a place where, from what we've observed, seems to exist at the exact location in all known planes.

With this information we were able to accurately project when a specific star in a specific plane, that was out of phase with our own, was to overlap our own plane at our current position. When this happens the FSD shunts the ship or object into the destination plane, giving the illusion of a great distance traveled once appearing at the destination star. The reality is though, that on a universal scale the ship or object never actually moved.

If this is hard to imagine, think of two pendulums one perfectly in front of the other and swinging opposite directions. They have an identical pattern of thousands of dots on each. Pick a dot on one and from a fixed view(important) looking directly at the pendulums, when they swing past each other, every dot on the opposite pendulum that your chosen dot perfectly overlaps is a suitable candidate for a frame shift. In the process of shifting your reference plane to that other pendulum, you, in effect, were able to choose your destination and instantaneously appear at a location other than the matching dot of your native pendulum, all while never physically moving at all. Of course in real life, there are an infinite (as far as we can tell) number of these pendulums and they don't swing but vibrate in all directions.

More recent advances in frame shift drives allow for greater selections of potential dimensional planes, by more accurately calculating phase variances further out of sync with our own. In essence, class A FSDs have a much larger selection of planes to choose from then a class E FSD due to the higher accuracy and smoothness in which the dimensional shift occurs. This gives higher class drives the ability to pick destinations further away from the starting point that lower class drives wouldn't have the phase variance tolerance levels to accommodate. Such is the reason that class A drive you just spent 1.5 million credits on will get you 10-15 light years further than your old unit. Your mass also effects this because, as I stated earlier, gravity is the binding agent between these planes. The more mass (and by extension, gravity) you have, the longer it takes to pass through the dimensional rift. Thus, a plane with a high phase variance that you could normally slip into, would already be out of sync with your position by the time you crossed over with a hold full of cargo.

Still don't believe me? Have you ever heard of stories of people trying to meet and even though they could swear they were at the same location, they were unable to find each other? What about the rumors of mining belts having subtle differences each time a miner jumps back into the system to resume his work? Or in your case... Entire star systems inexplicably missing?

There is a previously unforeseen consequence of all this frame shifting. The chances of a pilot returning to his native plane is nigh impossible. Differences between planes with low phase variances are negligible at most though. One would have to travel to the other side of the known universe to perceive any changes. While usually during the lifetime of being a pilot, the multitude of frame shifts one endures usually averages out to a mean variance of 1.13^-13, larger and larger variances are occurring yearly. As FSDs with larger ranges are being used, each jump potentially leaves the pilot at further point in phase variance from his reference frame than before.

When dealing with small reference frames, daily life is not compromised. I can be assured that when I return home each night to my wife from work (less than 10ly) I can rest easy knowing that, while she's not technically the same woman I left this morning, she still is my wife. She shares the same memories as me and she'd be quick to tell you that time I mentioned she should lose weight.... I digress though. The further one gets from his initial frame of reference, the stranger things become however.

One test we ran involved a 5 ton ship with a 150ly jump capacity. It never made it to it's destination. Not in our reference frame or any reference frame that we ran the test in at least. It also was a small step in verifying what we were already worried about. The fact that increasing ranges on drives are pushing pilots closer and closer to dimensional planes in which, you don't have to travel to the other side of the universe to notice differences. On more than one occasion we've had test pilots appear days after testing had commenced, claiming that there was no stations or in some instances (as you have found out my dear pilot) that entire star systems have disappeared. It was only by random jumping that they found their way back into a plane that we existed on. Not all were so lucky.

So alas, we're at a tipping point. Our economy would collapse without the FSD. However further need to push longer and longer jumps put pilots at risks that they have no idea exists. It's not until they find themselves in an alternate plane where none of us exist that they might realize something is wrong, and by then it might be too late. We're doing our best to improve the accuracy of the FSD phase variance calculation software, but I hate to imagine the number of pilots who will inevitably find out all to late that their lives have been sacrificed in the eternal economic struggle to conquer this tiny galaxy we call home, before we come up with a solution.

CMDR Thogapotomus
[FSD Research Lead, Ragnarok Station 113-Gamma]
 
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The distances are vast enough that this is really a non-issue.

Don't get me wrong, I hate instancing (it's been the curse of many an MMO after WoW) but in a space game where it'll take hours and hours to get to the next system anyway...this was the smart and easy option for Frontier to take.
 
There is no gameplay reason to have 400 billion star systems but they cared enough to model that.
Because the data was available in a somewhat easily accesible format (and Elite has always been about being somehwat 'lost' in a huge universe. They could not have gone the X or Star Citizen way with a few handful of systems and still have it be Elite) .
FD has always made technology choices to make the game more fun rather than have it be a scientifically perfect space sim (e.g. the flight model is definitively not newtonian, but a newtonian flight model is no fun for dogfights). Maybe they could have modeled the galaxy as one big pot instead of going for instances. Would it have been more difficult? Surely. Would it have added to the fun? Not one bit. So the decision in such a case is easy. When in doubt: Add what is fun and leave out that which isn't.
 
Could just up the speed limit on sc, and get rid of the repetitive hyperspace loading screen for good. You know, so that we can check out the objects that are between star systems. Seems like a gameplay benefit to me, especially considering how anemic exploration gameplay currently is.
 
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(e.g. the flight model is definitively not newtonian, but a newtonian flight model is no fun for dogfights).
I was under the impression that the flight model is Newtonian (other than the speed limits, obviously), but with a 'fly by wire' system that makes the ship fly as much like a jet as it can, given the power of the ship's thrusters? And when you turn 'flight assist off' you are literally turning off that fly by wire system?

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Could just up the speed limit on sc, and get rid of the repetitive hyperspace loading screen for good. You know, so that we can check out the objects that are between star systems. Seems like a gameplay benefit to me.
Historically hyperspace has been an important 'lore' element in Elite (the Thargoids being the most relevant example - not only did they hang out there to attack, but it's been implied that they either come from hyperspace originally, or from some other dimension connected to it).

Given that the Thargoids are coming, there may be more than just technical reasons for FD wanting to keep it in the game.

Of course, my love of the Thargoids may be colouring my judgement here... ;)
 
FD has always made technology choices to make the game more fun rather than have it be a scientifically perfect space sim (e.g. the flight model is definitively not newtonian, but a newtonian flight model is no fun for dogfights). Maybe they could have modeled the galaxy as one big pot instead of going for instances. Would it have been more difficult? Surely. Would it have added to the fun? Not one bit. So the decision in such a case is easy. When in doubt: Add what is fun and leave out that which isn't.

While I definitely agree with you on handling priority, I would not so hastily assume that a somewhat simple addition in line with what has already been suggested in the previous pages (i.e. a sort of automatic jump to the next instance) would not contribute to the fun aspect of the game. Many commanders who were previously unaware of the current situation have already expressed their regret with it. It was pointed out that apart from adding to immersion, being able to supercruise to a different star system also allows for stealth and exploration of deep space bodies. I do believe that fun has many layers, especially in a game that boasts such a varied and interesting community as ED.
 

BlackReign

Banned
It's disappointing, certainly. The instancing, static sky box, and rooms in space feel of it all really detracts from the game. Would have liked to have seen seamless travel, like space engine.

Still waiting on someone to explain how this detracts from the game......please elaborate.

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This game is too simple (=boring) at the moment.
I lasted 3 weeks. I hope it will get some depth.

3 weeks is not nearly enough time to play ED, no wonder you quit.
 
Your 'logic' is purely semantics, guesswork and cynicism.

Nope, my 'logic' is pointing out your guesswork and cynicism. I'll let the semantics part drop because you completely missed the point of it.

Your basic point is that you believe it's impossible, ...

Nope again. My basic point is that I don't know whether or not it's possible, and that I strongly suspect you don't either. You just know that one particular apsect of it (the astronomical part of the graphics engine) has been done in applications that otherwise bear only a passing resemblence to Elite: Dangerous. Pointing out some oranges doesn't tell you much about an apple.

... not that it wouldn't be an improvement.

Of course it would be an improvement; you know that, I know that and most importantly FD know that. Yet chose not to go that way. You claim that this is due to incompetence. I claim that that is a silly claim, and that even if it weren't, I do not believe you are anywhere near qualified to make it.

No, FD have done it this way because they've simply expanded upon the same core structure of E1 & 2, which both had the same restriction. It's an inhereted design constraint, not a practical limitation[1].

[1]Citation needed.
 
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Still waiting on someone to explain how this detracts from the game......please elaborate.

It is rather difficult to explain such a thing, almost as it is hard to explain the urge to go where no man has gone before. While the current situation will not detract from most players' experience, it will certainly do so for those of us who play the game for more obscure reasons. I'd like to point out that the level of polish which is evident in almost all other aspects of ED, actually makes one have unrealistic expectations for the state of such "trivial" matters as the possibility to travel seamlessly (at least sort of) between two adjacent star systems. Then, as one discovers how the system works in reality, the feeling of disappointment seems quite natural.
 
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