Switches Game Engines

[Jools]

I have to admire Bounder's one person crusade for Newtonian Physics in ED.

I for one am all for his ideas. Its just that i understand that this battle has been lost over 2 years ago. Most of us are just long gone from this mess of a game or simply gave up...

Some of the best pilots out there like ISINONA would surely applaud his cause too

This guy will never get it though

Once I understood who this is, i lost all hope for this title

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

I for one am all for his ideas. Its just that i understand that this battle has been lost over 2 years ago. Most of us are just long gone from this mess of a game or simply gave up...

Some of the best pilots out there like ISINONA would surely applaud his cause too

This guy will never get it though
http://i.imgur.com/L1Ltqtj.jpg
Once I understood who this is, i lost all hope for this title

And while I'm sorry that Elite Dangerous wasn't the game for you, I'm glad you were able to come to terms with it. I've bought and played games that I thought I would enjoy, didn't, and moved on rather than try and make the developers remake the game to my preferences.

I played Frontier for many years, and enjoyed it immensely, and have a great respect for it's Newtonian physics, and I can understand why people would pine for them, but this game is not that game, for technical and gameplay decision reasons.

But every time I see a post from Bounder, it's always about how Elite Dangerous should be made to be the way he wants it, and how much better it would be if only everyone would see the light and join his glorious choir of Time Dilated FFE fans!

Even this thread, which was a sarcastic dig at some-other-game(tm) changing game engines.

 

[Jools]

AI'm glad you were able to come to terms with it

far from it unfortunately... I`m trying, but i just cannot let it go... so many years man... so many promisses

i`m angry that despite IAN telling us otherwise i have trusted David yet again

Its been 20 years.... I`ve been hearing Davids promisses and assurances of Elite 4 for decades now... waiting while he sits on the frenchise... all the glorious interviews he gave.. all the dreams.... you will start on planet on foot and slowly work your way to own the ship... fully seamless universe, astounding graphics, blah blah blah than years of silence and back-pedalling, and MS shovelware factory... then the KS, the DDF... and the back pedalling all over... and stretching the gameplay thin over 10 expansions instead of delivering a full coherent game, and then adding content expansions as stated during KS... F that b.S.!

So no I didn`t come to terms with it. I`m almost a Braben hater nowadays. And I still have no Elite 4, only some broken multiplayer abomination by the Developer of such excellent games like Haze and Kinect Star Wars

If there was an alternative i would be long gone, I don`t even play E any more

This is the only game that makes me angry like that. I`m angry because I`m helpless and cannot fight the greedy practices alone while others pre-buy everything and pay for cosmetic stuff that was free in previous games, and glorify mediocrity while applouding incompetence...

so again... far from it unfortunately... I`m trying, but i just cannot let it go... so many years man... so many promises, and such a low budget C-tier mediocrity at the end

 

[KellyR]

far from it unfortunately... I`m trying, but i just cannot let it go... so many years man... so many promisses

i`m angry that despite IAN telling us otherwise i have trusted David yet again

Its been 20 years.... I`ve been hearing Davids promisses and assurances of Elite 4 for decades now... waiting while he sits on the frenchise... all the glorious interviews he gave.. all the dreams.... you will start on planet on foot and slowly work your way to own the ship... fully seamless universe, astounding graphics, blah blah blah than years of silence and back-pedalling, and MS shovelware factory... than the KS, the DDF... and the back pedalling all over... and stretching the gameplay thin over 10 expansions instead of delivering a full coherent game, and than adding content expansions as stated during KS... F that b.S.!

So no I didn`t come to terms with it. I`m almost a Braben hater nowadays. And I still have no Elite 4, only some broken multiplayer abomination by the Developer of such excellent games like Haze and Kinect Star Wars

If there was an alternative i would be long gone, I don`t even play E any more

This is the only game that makes me angry like that. I`m angry because I`m helpless and cannot fight the greedy practices alone while others pre-buy everything and pay for cosmetic stuff that was free in previous games, and glorify mediocrity while applouding incompetence...

so again... far from it unfortunately... I`m trying, but i just cannot let it go... so many years man... so many promises, and such a low budget C-tier mediocrity at the end

And you obviously don't know what goes into programming a game of this scope. Heck I don't fully understand it. Yes, David did state some grandiose plans for Elite 4. Then when the technology and infrastructure for network gaming was in place and he and his team sat down to actually do it, reality slapped them in the face. No matter what you say, Elite Dangerous isn't broken. It's just not yet completed. And I don't think it will ever be completed. There is always more content to add. In fact, I don't want it to be completed because if it ever is, then the end is nigh. Cause if it's complete, then sometime shortly after that; maybe in 6 months or a year or 2 years, the network servers will go down. They might make it to where you can play offline when they do that, but I like there being a chance I can meet and interact with other humans. Not possible in offline mode.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

far from it unfortunately... I`m trying, but i just cannot let it go... so many years man... so many promisses

i`m angry that despite IAN telling us otherwise i have trusted David yet again

Its been 20 years.... I`ve been hearing Davids promisses and assurances of Elite 4 for decades now... waiting while he sits on the frenchise... all the glorious interviews he gave.. all the dreams.... you will start on planet on foot and slowly work your way to own the ship... fully seamless universe, astounding graphics, blah blah blah than years of silence and back-pedalling, and MS shovelware factory... than the KS, the DDF... and the back pedalling all over... and stretching the gameplay thin over 10 expansions instead of delivering a full coherent game, and than adding content expansions as stated during KS... F that b.S.!

So no I didn`t come to terms with it. I`m almost a Braben hater nowadays. And I still have no Elite 4, only some broken multiplayer abomination by the Developer of such excellent games like Haze and Kinect Star Wars

If there was an alternative i would be long gone, I don`t even play E any more

This is the only game that makes me angry like that. I`m angry because I`m helpless and cannot fight the greedy practices alone while others pre-buy everything and pay for cosmetic stuff that was free in previous games, and glorify mediocrity while applouding incompetence...

so again... far from it unfortunately... I`m trying, but i just cannot let it go... so many years man... so many promises, and such a low budget C-tier mediocrity at the end

That's a shame you feel like that, but you have your opinion and that is all it is. On the whole I find the game superb, not perfect though. I have played the original elite on my old trusty ZX Spectrum 48k, I have played it's sequels. This version is by far the best version so far, and I certainly don't see it as a mess.

Remember this is not a sequel, but a brand new beginning which is getting better after every update.

But that is my opinion.

 

[Jools]

you have your opinion and that is all it is

Yep. And this is the forum to share our opinions.
Nothing to add here

Remember this is not a sequel, but a brand new beginning which is getting better after every update.

This is simply not true.

Nowhere in the KS have they said it is a reboot, but they did call it a sequel. David has even said that despite the fact it has a different name it is essentially elite 4.
There is also the fact that it is set some time after FFE and that it is a continuation of the same story and the events from the former games are canon in the current universe

It is not a reboot. Its a sequel.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Yep. And this is the forum to share our opinions.
Nothing to add here



This is simply not true.

Nowhere in the KS have they said it is a reboot, but they did call it a sequel. David has even said that despite the fact it has a different name it is essentially elite 4.
There is also the fact that it is set some time after FFE and that it is a continuation of the same story and the events from the former games are canon in the current universe

It is not a reboot. Its a sequel.

Are you sure. As I heard them say that the previous games are not cannon.

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

Are you sure. As I heard them say that the previous games are not cannon.

To be fair, Frontier Ret-conned most of Elite Lore.

So Elite 2 rebooted the universe and lore, and Elite Dangerous has rebooted the lore again.

Some things still happened, some things didn't. So it's as much a sequel or a reboot (depending on your view) as Frontier was of Elite.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

What makes you think it can't handle stuff. I haven't seen any evidence of that yet.

There are a lot of limitations. Even the devs mentioned some in older videos.

- Chained missions aren't easy to implement for example. The result they got was not good enough. So they decided not to release them as a new mission type.

- Propper Instancing is a big problem. Ask some PvP players about their experience.

- Major changes to the 3 main careers are difficult (IMHO)

If you followed this "special event" a couple of months ago where some players had to decode some ASCII text files they got from a ship. This was supposed to be a big event but it was really almost nothing more than we got. The team is pretty much limited IMHO. The event was nothing but some ASCII text files, fly there, get a new text file, fly there, get text files. This was not a big event it was a demonstration of the limitation the game engine has IMHO.

I'm not deeply into this stuff but I think the most advanced engine for space MMO could actually be AMAZON's engine. If you see how awesome SC 2.6 looks and how a huge playber based can be supported in the most perfect way by AMAZONS massive server and cloud services, the switch to that engine was a very important step for Roberts and his team.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

There are a lot of limitations. Even the devs mentioned some in older videos.

- Chained missions aren't easy to implement for example. The result they got was not good enough. So they decided not to release them as a new mission type.

- Propper Instancing is a big problem. Ask some PvP players about their experience.

- Major changes to the 3 main careers are difficult (IMHO)

If you followed this "special event" a couple of months ago where some players had to decode some ASCII text files they got from a ship. This was supposed to be a big event but it was really almost nothing more than we got. The team is pretty much limited IMHO. The event was nothing but some ASCII text files, fly there, get a new text file, fly there, get text files. This was not a big event it was a demonstration of the limitation the game engine has IMHO.

I'm not deeply into this stuff but I think the most advanced engine for space MMO could actually be AMAZON's engine. If you see how awesome SC 2.6 looks and how a huge playber based can be supported in the most perfect way by AMAZONS massive server and cloud services, the switch to that engine was a very important step for Roberts and his team.

They have said chained missions are coming. The previous chained missions where a test, but they were not happy about it. But I am pretty sure they are still coming.

Also the missions are 99.9% procedurally generated based on the BGS states. That's why chained missions are tough. Nothing to do with the actual engine. It's to do with the procedurally generated galaxy.

Amazon's game engine is basically crytek which is not good for this kind of game. Also ED uses Amazon servers as well.

You are comparing 2 very different games. The only similarity is that they both have space ships in space.

We don't know whether SC could manage a simulated galaxy with billions of different planets etc.

Basically people are saying this stuff and it's all guess work. They don't really know.

I have Star Citizen. So far I am not impressed. But I haven't tried 2.6 yet. So will give it a go.

 

[DirkLarien]

I am not impressed.

I could not care less about your impression level. ;-)

 

[Zambrick]

Seriously. Buy and play Kerbal Space Program. Once you can plot a free-return transfer to the moon and explain what the sentence "The moon accelerates the space ship in an retrograde direction relative to it's motion around Earth and thus drops the periapsis into the atmosphere." means, get back to us.

If you do not accelerate to orbital speed - low earth orbit, about 7.5 km/s relative to the surface - then you fall back down and hit the planet. The earth does not 'leave you behind' unless you push yourself (ie, accelerate) away from it even faster than that.

Space does not operate like diving out the door of an airplane.



Depends on how hard you accelerate. Hard enough acceleration will indeed cause damage - ie, slamming to a stop against a medium in a car going at 80. Gentler acceleration, like over the course of a few seconds, as if by hitting the gas pedal to gradually get up to 80? Harmless.

Your max speed ain't got nothing to do with how deadly traveling is, unless you're talking about impacting something - of which there is nothing to impact, in space, generally. Especially not air, which is what causes all those problems and opportunities related to airplanes and tends to whip our hair round when we're sticking our heads out the window. I tell you again, we're all floating here serenely, unperturbedly flowing along at 30 kilometers a second along with everything else on this planet, and nobody even feels it.


Edit: Look, I'm not shaming you. But you're speaking from a position of ignorance and making everybody who believes you stupider. Orbital mechanics is hard, okay, I don't blame you for not understanding newton's laws and how they apply. I am blaming you for blowing smoke out your butt like you know what's what and daring to sound offended when somebody who does know what's what comes along to state a correction.

I dont know how else to state this. Please learn how to read. You spent three paragraphs telling me what I told you in the previous post.

Secondly there is someone here that wants real newtonian physics and I told them that if you continue to accelerate that eventually you would die. Super Cruise could not work in RL. Not only do you start out slow you speed up to and beyond light speed. That is not possible. Yet that person felt the need to try and puff up their ego by posting the exact opposite of what I had stated.

What that person wants is the game to be more realistic and that would somehow make it better. I wont. FFE2 had a super complicated completely unrealistic physics and travel model and he is touting it as a great feature. When in reality it was just the best FDEV could do at the time.

An engine change wont change the core mechanics. Trying to make the game into FFE2 wont help the game. I can guarantee you that more people are playing ED right now, than all the previous Elite games combined. If I wanted a real to life simulation space travel then I would boot up my copy of Kerbel.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I dont know how else to state this. Please learn how to read. You spent three paragraphs telling me what I told you in the previous post.

Secondly there is someone here that wants real newtonian physics and I told them that if you continue to accelerate that eventually you would die. Super Cruise could not work in RL. Not only do you start out slow you speed up to and beyond light speed. That is not possible. Yet that person felt the need to try and puff up their ego by posting the exact opposite of what I had stated.

What that person wants is the game to be more realistic and that would somehow make it better. I wont. FFE2 had a super complicated completely unrealistic physics and travel model and he is touting it as a great feature. When in reality it was just the best FDEV could do at the time.

An engine change wont change the core mechanics. Trying to make the game into FFE2 wont help the game. I can guarantee you that more people are playing ED right now, than all the previous Elite games combined. If I wanted a real to life simulation space travel then I would boot up my copy of Kerbel.

I am in agreement with you regarding realism. I certainly don't want FFE2 style game play.

But I think your understanding physics maybe a bit out. You can continue to accelerate at 1g indefinitely and it will feel great as you would have earth like gravity on your ship for the duration of that acceleration.

 

[Lheim]

I am in agreement with you regarding realism. I certainly don't want FFE2 style game play.

But I think your understanding physics maybe a bit out. You can continue to accelerate at 1g indefinitely and it will feel great as you would have earth like gravity on your ship for the duration of that acceleration.

And yet it's true that you'd never get past the speed of light, which would make for rather 'orrible game play in a 1-1 scale milky way.

Of course we need some kinda sci-fi flub drive. Who cares? But what disturbs me is Zambrick's grasp of physics!

Personally I don't think full-newtonian normal space flight, beyond the flub drive to get anywhere seriously distant, would necessarily make for a better game - just a different one. And that ship has indeed sailed.

I have it on word of god that a person can sustain 9.8 m/s/s acceleration for extraordinarily long periods of time without suffering ill effects. My google-fu is weak, but perhaps somebody can post a gif of a person pinned into a padded support frame (for taste's sake..) while experiencing such a force.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Argh! The Faster-Than-Light thing AGAIN!

Let's try this with pictures.. maybe then someone will get it.

Point A <----- Distance 1 Light Year -----> Point B

At the speed of light, it takes 1 year to get from Point A to Point B. Simple enough.

Enter Frame Shift Drive:

Outside the Frame-Shift Conduit:
Point A <----- Distance 1 Light Year -----> Point B

Inside the Frame-Shift Conduit:
Point A <----- Distance 1 Light Hour -----> Point B

For everyone not Hyperspace Jumping, Points A and B are still 1 Light Year apart.
Inside the Hyperspace Conduit created by the frameshift drive, the distance is shorted by spatial compression.
Inside the conduit, the distance is only one light hour.

To those outside the conduit it appears that a ship inside the conduit is traveling faster than light, as it traveled the distance as measured from outside the conduit, at one light year, in far less than a year. Therefore, the ship must be traveling faster than light, which it is not.

Or in more terrestrial terms:

It is 262 km from London to Manchester.
At Highway Speed, this is roughly a 4 hour trip.

Now, if I were to develop a vehicle that could create a conduit between where it is in London to where it's going in Manchester that reduced this physical distance, by compressing the physical space to 131 km, and then traveled that conduit, I would make it to Manchester in just 2 hours instead (not counting the additional 15 minutes for the loading screens, but that's a different issue entirely). To someone watching from the outside, it would appear as if I had traveled at twice the Highway speed limit to make that journey.

Can I make it any clearer?

FSD is not FTL, it's STR (Shorter Than Reality).

 

[Zambrick]

Then you are not accelerating. You are maintaining speed. As you continue to accelerate regardess as to how fast or slow you are accelerating you will increase G force. Acceleration and velocity are not the same thing. You cant accelerate to a full stop can you? Reading and comprehension of the language is your arguments downfall.

- - - Updated - - -

What disturbs me is your lack of reading and comprehension. Your lack of ability to tell the difference between velocity and acceleration. So until you get a firm grasp of your own language please dont try to act as if you know the first thing about physics.

 

[Lheim]

Then you are not accelerating. You are maintaining speed. As you continue to accelerate regardess as to how fast or slow you are accelerating you will increase G force. Acceleration and velocity are not fhe same thing. You cant accelerate to a full stop can you?

- - - Updated - - -

OF COURSE YOU CAN! Oh my god, it's like you're spewing out words you don't even know the definitions of!

Constant acceleration = constant G, changing velocity.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Then you are not accelerating. You are maintaining speed. As you continue to accelerate regardess as to how fast or slow you are accelerating you will increase G force. Acceleration and velocity are not fhe same thing. You cant accelerate to a full stop can you?

- - - Updated - - -

What disturbs me is your lack of reading and comprehension. Your lack of ability to tell the difference between velocity and acceleration. So until you get a firm grasp of your own language please dont try to act as if you know the first thing about physics.

No you are not. You accelerate at 1g. Your speed will keep going up at 1g. When you stop accelerating you are at 0g and your speed stops going up (you don't magically slow down at 0g). Please look up basic physics. You are 100% wrong.

 

[Sole Hunter]

Switching the game engine for a live product already two years in the market would be suicidal. Even switching mid-development is pretty prohibitive, unless you want to start over from scratch. Game engines nowadays not only render the pretty pictures on your screen, they also define how you build and pipeline your content and are deeply entangled with your game code.

The reason why SC - at least in theory - can switch from CryEngine to Lumberyard lies in the fact that Lumberyard is built upon an older version of CryEngine, so the two technologies are in parts compatible. Devil will be in the details, of course. Rough guess, this stunt will throw SC release back by two quarters at least. And Lumberyard is still in beta, so there will be a lot of obstacles and missing tools they now have to deal with. Speculation, this switch is driven by economical reasons. CryEngine is on the expensive side of engines you can buy.

Really? star citizen just did that, i guess they just committed suicide considering they've been in the market since 2012.

 

[Wylie28]

Its a custom engine. It can modified to handle whatever they need. The devs instead are not making the game you have in your head.