T9 for exploration

You need range to race or set distance records. The former is not exploring, the latter a small niche of exploring.

Loving it is the most important thing about a ship you're going to spend months in and metrics are small consolation when you're 40kly from Sol if you really hate flying an Anaconda.
 
I don't *need* my car to get 50mpg, but when I'm driving across the country, an 18mpg car means many more fill-ups, and a lot more down time.

Range is the #1 metric for most explorers for the obvious reason: Less jumps to get places. By all means, choose a ship you like to fly; but don't pretend you're flying a "great" exploration ship if you have a 20 Ly range.

This is particularly important if you want to visit particular locations, like Colonia, SagA*, or distant nebula.

Sol to SagA* is 26,000 Ly. At 40 Ly/jump that's 650 jumps. At 20 Ly/jump that's 1300 jumps.
 
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I don't *need* my car to get 50mpg, but when I'm driving across the country, an 18mpg car means many more fill-ups, and a lot more down time.

Range is the #1 metric for most explorers for the obvious reason: Less jumps to get places. By all means, choose a ship you like to fly; but don't pretend you're flying a "great" exploration ship if you have a 20 Ly range.

This is particularly important if you want to visit particular locations, like Colonia, SagA*, or distant nebula.

Sol to SagA* is 26,000 Ly. At 40 Ly/jump that's 650 jumps. At 20 Ly/jump that's 1300 jumps.
Firstly, comparing videogame spaceships to rl cars is a whopper of a false equivalence. I'd argue in a car you're ONLY going to be interested in the destination. In ED many, many people are far more interested in the journey. There's a case for saying the more systems you hit per kylie the more chance there is of finding shinies.

Secondly, and range aside, your assertion that anything other than the Conda, AspX, DBX, DBS, Adder or Hauler are novelty choices for exploration is utter tommyrot. What about the Orca, Dolphin, Keelback, Type 6, Type 7, Viper IV, Python - all of which I've made at least 1k trips in? Can't remember who it is but one explorer uses a Vulture. Cruento Mucrone went further than most in a single trip in a stock Cobra III. Frawd Digger went to BP in a Sidey. These ships may not be your favourites but please don't dismiss others' perfectly legitimate choices as a joke.
 
@ Heavy Johnson: First, wrong car analogy. You're comparing fuel efficiency of a continuous car drive to the maximum range of discrete jumps that a (fictional) spaceship can make. Meanwhile, your argument basically boils down to this: only the top speed of a car matters, and everything else is unimportant. Others will say that there is much more to whether a car is suited to different needs than how fast it can go under optimum circumstances.
Besides, there is more than just one kind of exploration, and there is no ship that's the best at everything. (Although the Asp comes very close.) Try using the Anaconda for planetary exploration, you'll see what I mean.

As for your judgement on ships: you include the Diamondback Scout(!) as a budget explorer ship, yet as it only has four internal slots, it wouldn't satisfy your own criteria about having enough internal slots. Then again, you said that a full set of exploration modules consists of ADS, DSS, SRV and AFMU, so technically, it can. It just won't have a fuel scoop.

The thing is, you appear to subscribe to the school of thought that mixes in travel with exploration. Sure, if your goal is to get from points A to B in the fastest time you can, then jump range matters. But if your goal is to explore first and foremost, and you're not in a hurry, then you'll probably want to visit more systems, to increase your chances at finding stuff. If your goal is to explore at a given area, then getting there faster can be handy, but once you're there, minmaxed jump ranges become meaningless - and your Anaconda's supercruise handling might become a liability. But again, that's one kind of exploration, while there are others.

If you really want metrics, then there's forward speed and agility for planetary flight, for starters, or fuel scoop per fuel tank ratio for travel. You see, while a Diamondback Explorer does beat an Asp on the jump range, it'll still travel slower because of having to spend more time scooping. As such, even just for travelling, there is more to consider than jump range only. Even then, travel time only matters if you're in a hurry. You might always be, but it's not a universal need.


I could go on, but I think my point has been made well enough. To sum it up: you can say that everything other than the favourite three are novelties, sure. But that's just your opinion. I believe nobody in this thread asked for anyone's opinions about what the best explorer ships are, anyway. However, if you try to present that as fact, well, then as facts they'd be wrong. There are usage cases where those three are not necessarily the best. Or do you mean to imply that some explorers who have gained experience by spending lots of time out there ditch their Anacondas or Asps simply for the sake of novelty?
 
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The comment about planetary exploration is fair and that’s a valid concern if you’re going to be doing a lot of that.

I don’t think anything is wrong with the car analogy, limited to the fuel/range aspect. It’s certainly not perfect, but stopping more is approximate to having to jump more.

Re: Diamondback Scout, it’s certainly second-tier due to the lack of full slot space, but the low cost and high range are attractive for pilots on the way up.

People can fly whatever they want. If you fly to BP in a Sidewinder, I will definitely be impressed; but it is an achievement of novelty, not something I’d ever recommend to other explorers.

Erimus took an AspX across the galaxy and to BP in the early days because it was the best ship available for exploration. The AspX is arguably still the best, unless you don’t mind the mild (but overstated) fuel scoop issue on the DBX, or don’t mind the hefty price tag on the Anaconda.

Range is king. Range maximizes how far you can get in your game play session. Range takes you places you can’t get. Range means more time exploring places you want because you skipped the ones you didn’t want.

If you want to look at literally everything from A to B, pack a T9 with fuel and use economical mode; but this is opposite to all the explorers that I know.
 
There is one other option I can think of: If you're going to Fuel Rat in deep space and carry limpet controllers, plus exploration suite, you'll need a different choices. That's a valid reason for an otherwise novelty ship.
 
Exploration be like:

Anaconda, AspX, DBX: best choices
DBS, Adder, Hauler: budget choices
Anything else: novelty choice

I get what you're saying but I have to say you need to add the Dolphin into this list somewhere as it is definitely not a 'Novelty' exploration vessel :)
 
I don’t think anything is wrong with the car analogy, limited to the fuel/range aspect. It’s certainly not perfect, but stopping more is approximate to having to jump more.
Sorry, but not quite. A better analogy would be having to take a longer route (to the same destination) with a different car.

Re: Diamondback Scout, it’s certainly second-tier due to the lack of full slot space, but the low cost and high range are attractive for pilots on the way up.
Given that the Cobra Mk III is cheaper, has a comparable jump range and can carry everything you said is mandatory to an explorer ship while the DBS can't, I still don't really see why it should be included there. While neither the Dolphin, nor the other Saud-Kruger ships are. But anyway, this is mostly a moot point. It's not like costs matter much by now, when with just a few valuable planets (or taking half an hour to participate in a CG and cash in your rewards later) will get you enough credits to buy and outfit plenty of ships for exploration.

People can fly whatever they want. If you fly to BP in a Sidewinder, I will definitely be impressed; but it is an achievement of novelty, not something I’d ever recommend to other explorers.
No offense, but I wouldn't call flying to an already-discovered system via an already-established route a feat of exploration. If you do it via a new route, it's an accomplishment of navigation: otherwise, it's tourism. Nothing wrong with that, but I still don't see why you're repeating the word "novelty".
Hm, hold on, I think there might be a misunderstanding here. Do you mean novelty in the pejorative sense?

Erimus took an AspX across the galaxy and to BP in the early days because it was the best ship available for exploration. The AspX is arguably still the best, unless you don’t mind the mild (but overstated) fuel scoop issue on the DBX, or don’t mind the hefty price tag on the Anaconda.
But if jump range alone is king, then the Anaconda was and still is the best. Or do you mean to say that jump range and price are the most important things?

Range is king. Range maximizes how far you can get in your game play session. Range takes you places you can’t get. Range means more time exploring places you want because you skipped the ones you didn’t want.
Several flaws with this reasoning. First off, how far you can get in your session might not matter for everyone. An explorer will want to explore more places: distance between the systems you visit is irrelevant to what you might find. If you didn't want to explore some systems, then you were travelling at the time. Nothing's wrong with that, mind you - but it's still an important distinction. For example, when I'm chain-boosting via known neutron stars, I wouldn't say I'm exploring.
As far as travel goes, better jump range is of course important, although if you'll test things, you'll note that the added benefit of higher jump range for travel decreases as the star density of the sectors you're going through decreases. (Which means that after a while, it might not be worth it for a player to sacrifice some things for an even higher jump range.)
Exploration-wise, the benefit from a higher jump range is that it allows you to traverse less dense regions, as you also noted. Above a full tank range of 35-40 ly, you can travel through any region. Which means the only benefit from then on is either for travel, or a small niche of exploration: exploring the very extremes of the galaxy.

If you want to look at literally everything from A to B, pack a T9 with fuel and use economical mode; but this is opposite to all the explorers that I know.
There is middle ground, you know. Also, I think you misunderstand: nobody said that they want to travel as slow as possible between two points. What people have said is that jump range alone isn't everything, and they said this in response to your statement that for exploration, anything outside your favourite three is a novelty ship. Which is why I asked before (you haven't replied to this yet) if you meant to imply that explorers who have gained experience by spending lots of time out there ditch their Anacondas or Asps simply for the sake of novelty, and why I asked now if you meant novelty in the pejorative sense.
 
marx, inline quoting gets confusing for me with BBcode tags so I'm just going to use > to indicate I'm quoting you =)

> Given that the Cobra Mk III is cheaper, has a comparable jump range and can carry everything you said is mandatory to an explorer ship while the DBS can't, I still don't really see why it should be included there.

The range on the DBS is higher. I take your point about price being less of an issue now that a single ELW scan is worth ~600k, which is pretty much the hull cost of either ship now, so I'll concede that the Cobra Mk III would make an alternative to the DBS. It's still not in the top three, obviously.

> Hm, hold on, I think there might be a misunderstanding here. Do you mean novelty in the pejorative sense?

I'm using the definition that is closest to "denoting something intended to be amusing as a result of its new or unusual quality".

> But if jump range alone is king, then the Anaconda was and still is the best. Or do you mean to say that jump range and price are the most important things?

Yep, pretty much. Once you have enough credits, the Anaconda is - on objective numbers alone - the best exploration ship. Best range, carries everything. Turn rate is slower, and if that's really a deal breaker for you, I guess that's a thing? Correct speed management seems to make this a trivial issue. If you're doing a lot of planet exploration, I can also see your desire for a ship with a smaller footprint.

I'm currently using a DBX on both my accounts, but only because I really don't want to spend the time doing all the engineer rolls again for a 'Conda.

> to imply that explorers who have gained experience by spending lots of time out there ditch their Anacondas or Asps simply for the sake of novelty

Nah. People can still fly whatever they want. People seem to be outraged that their favorite ship isn't in the top three. The top three are the list of ships that are objectively by metrics the best for most exploration. They're solid all-arounders and get the job done. This isn't to say you can't do exploration in a Hauler (which I've done) if that fits your budget. The new exploration price changes make the DBX highly affordable now, the AspX easy to reach, and the Conda is no longer far, far off in the future. Unless you've got some other reason, these are the ships that you should probally be flying.

> No offense, but I wouldn't call flying to an already-discovered system via an already-established route a feat of exploration

Given the Sidewinder's low range and limited space, getting to BP in one is at least worth some praise. That's gotta be hard. Also, we might have different meanings for 'exploration'. For some this means 'going to systems no one has been in before', but to many others it means 'going to interesting and exciting places' (SagA*, nebula, pulsars - POI objects). For the first group, if you want to explore a mostly uncharted area, say 15k Ly out from the bubble, higher range is going to get you there (and to exploring your area) quicker. For the second group, it's less jumps to the nifty thing you want to see.
 
I get what you're saying but I have to say you need to add the Dolphin into this list somewhere as it is definitely not a 'Novelty' exploration vessel :)

I do admit to not having flown a Dolphin personally. A few comments on it:

* The class 5 reserved slot is not useful (but doesn't hurt either, so that's a null issue)
* The top range (unengineered) is 35 Ly

For 500k more you can get into a DBX which has a 41 Ly top range. However, I do notice that the Dolphin uses a class-4 FSD and the DBX a class-5 FSD, of a difference for about 4 million credits. That's a fairly big difference, so I'll concede that the Dolphin makes a nice 2-tier exploration ship if you can't yet afford the DBX or AspX. Or if you're doing passenger missions, obviously.
 
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The range on the DBS is higher. I take your point about price being less of an issue now that a single ELW scan is worth ~600k, which is pretty much the hull cost of either ship now, so I'll concede that the Cobra Mk III would make an alternative to the DBS. It's still not in the top three, obviously.
Since we're theorycrafting a bit, let me point out how the cheaper Cobra Mk III is better at exploration than the DBS. Unengineered, a DBS that carries a lightweight build, 3A fuel scoop, 3D shield gen, ADS+DSS will do 27.59 ly on a full tank. (link) For the very same capabilities and equipment (so same costs on outfitting), the Cobra jumps 26.1 ly. (link) The differences between the two? The DBS can carry nothing else, while the Cobra still has two empty internal slots, allowing it to carry an SRV bay, an AFMU, or anything else. Also, the DBS can fit a class 3 fuel scoop only, while the Cobra can do a class 4. In practice, that means the DBS takes 1m30s to refill, while the Cobra does it in 0m46s.
You might say that giving all of the above up for +1.49 ly (stock) is worth it, but I think you'll find that most would disagree.

> Hm, hold on, I think there might be a misunderstanding here. Do you mean novelty in the pejorative sense?

I'm using the definition that is closest to "denoting something intended to be amusing as a result of its new or unusual quality".
Heh, I see. So in short, your answer is yes.

People seem to be outraged that their favorite ship isn't in the top three.
Please, no need for hyperbole. I think you'll find nobody here was outraged at anything. If there was actual outrage going on here, you can bet the thread would have been locked by now, heh.

Given that you're citing objective metrics, I wonder if you've considered how metrics are usually used. You aren't doing a weighted score based on several factors, after all. Consider how a DBX can jump 40 ly stock and an Anaconda can jump 40 ly stock, and will be equal if that's all you measure by - but the actual examples will show that the Anaconda is more useful for most cases at that equal range.
The new route plotter is actually great for measuring this. Let me give you a specific example: I recently ran some tests with it while planning my next expedition - a short one to go to Pearcy's "Earth-like dance with giant", and look for volcanism on its moon.
On a Clipper with 40.18 ly jump range, it plotted 77 jumps (filters off). On a DBX with 56.77 ly jump range, it plotted 53 jumps. Given that the Clipper can travel considerably faster than the DBX (can scoop much faster, and turns a bit better too), the difference in time travelled would then be maybe fifteen minutes. Meanwhile, once I get there and wish to look for volcanism on the planet's moon, the Clipper has better forward speed and better cockpit visibility, and a multicrew seat as well. Personally, I'd say that the fifteen minutes of travel (or half an hour if we include a return trip) I'd spare with the DBX wouldn't be worth giving up these advantages. Other people would disagree. In the absence of an agreed-upon numerical method, both would be subjective opinions.
The only such method that has been suggested so far was to use jump range in itself only. Unfortunately, as seen before, that is not useful as a single, standalone metric.

> No offense, but I wouldn't call flying to an already-discovered system via an already-established route a feat of exploration
Given the Sidewinder's low range and limited space, getting to BP in one is at least worth some praise. That's gotta be hard.
I didn't say it wasn't, it's just not one of exploration. Same as how Allitnil going to Colonia without a fuel scoop was an impressive feat, but not one of exploration: both were impressive accomplishments of travelling. Oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't wish to imply that travelling is in any way worse than exploration. It's simply different. (And let's not forget how travelling is intertwined with other in-game activities as well, not just exploration.)

Also, we might have different meanings for 'exploration'. For some this means 'going to systems no one has been in before', but to many others it means 'going to interesting and exciting places' (SagA*, nebula, pulsars - POI objects). For the first group, if you want to explore a mostly uncharted area, say 15k Ly out from the bubble, higher range is going to get you there (and to exploring your area) quicker. For the second group, it's less jumps to the nifty thing you want to see.
Like I said, the difference is that you include travel in exploration. For the purposes of travel, we of course agree on what's useful. Mind you, the above "going to interesting and exciting places" is pretty much the exact definition of tourism. The key difference is that with tourism, you know there's something interesting at your destination, whereas with exploration, you don't. As such, for the purposes of exploration, the most important will be the number of systems visited, not the total distance travelled.
Given that, if you talk with more people, you'll find that for plenty of them, comfortable exploration is more important than travelling very fast. You'll find several such people in this thread already.

Oh, one more thing. If you care about other people visiting what you've found (which, let's not forget, you might not!), or you wish to visit it again later, then larger distances are actually counter-productive. The farther away something is, the more special it has to be for people to actually want to visit it. (Unless they are doing tourist missions for the credits, heh.) So there's also a good case for looking for stuff closer to the bubbles - in which case higher jump ranges don't offer much of a benefit.


So, in conclusion: as you can see above, jump range alone isn't everything. I wouldn't suggest to anyone to stick to just those three ships only, because they might find that none of them fit their needs, and then they'll just give up on exploration altogether. So, "Anaconda, AspX, DBX only, everything else is novelty" is bad advice to give.
 
It's clear we don't agree, which is OK. So I'll leave it there. I respect that people have different opinions (even if I think those are wrong :D).
 
It's clear we don't agree, which is OK. So I'll leave it there. I respect that people have different opinions (even if I think those are wrong :D).
Hey, glad to hear that. Let me remind you that this started with you coming in to make a claim as objective fact (in short: "the Anaconda, the AspX and the DBX are the only ships fit for exploration, the DBS, the Adder and the Hauler are good cheap options, all other ships are novelties fit only for amusement"), and then I said I don't agree (so of course this was clear), presenting counter-points to your original points. Then we tried debating both, but it seems that is now over. If you now say that my counter-points are just opinions, then that means your points were just opinions too. I think we can both agree on that, so I'm glad to hear it.
 
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