Hardware & Technical The Avegant glyph discussion thread.

Anyone knows an article listing the alternatives for OR? I've heard there where a few on the GDC besides Sony. So far I've found:

Avangarde Glyph (too low FOV)
Sony Morpheus (PS4 only)
3D infiniteye (4 screens, probably expensive)
Gameface Mark IV (android only?)
Dive VR headset (strap your smartphone to your face)
 

Slopey

Volunteer Moderator
Anyone knows an article listing the alternatives for OR? I've heard there where a few on the GDC besides Sony. So far I've found:

Avangarde Glyph (too low FOV)
Sony Morpheus (PS4 only)
3D infiniteye (4 screens, probably expensive)
Gameface Mark IV (android only?)
Dive VR headset (strap your smartphone to your face)

The reality is there is nothing like the Rift out there - it's not locked to a console platform, has a high field of view, and a totally open SDK. A direct competitor doesn't currently exist (hence the FB investment in OR).
 
Anyone knows an article listing the alternatives for OR? I've heard there where a few on the GDC besides Sony. So far I've found:

Avangarde Glyph (too low FOV)
Sony Morpheus (PS4 only)
3D infiniteye (4 screens, probably expensive)
Gameface Mark IV (android only?)
Dive VR headset (strap your smartphone to your face)

There is
CastAR

and it provides:
- AR
- VR
- HD, low latency
- 6DOF Headtrack
- Indie development
- is available at least for Windows
- is quite cheapcheap
- no head-strapped toaster
- still in development but we'll see


A small introduction video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpmKq_qg3Tk

A quite recent Tom's hardware article from the CES 2014.
 
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Just one really.

1.
facebook-oculus-rift-branding-new-york-times.jpg

LOL very good! :D Keep them coming.

p.s. I hope nobody seriously expects Oculus Rift to be beaming players with ads, as that is an insane proposition.

I was very surprised by the news. But software giants have on occasion diversified their portfolio by moving on to hardware in the past. Microsoft most notably..


And now another VR company comes out and declares their headset with a kickstarter and apparently it will be "ready for Xmas".

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/true-player-gear-reveals-alternative-to-oculus-rift/1100-6418642/

Although I am interested in the tech I am unable to use it due to having a severe neurological eye condition which makes it impossible for me to use this or 3d.

This is great news. The more competition, the merrier.

TBH I am fairly certain there is one display technology that will trump all others in the design of fully immersive VR HMDs. That is the Virtual Retinal Display (VRD) technology of the Avegant Glyph. Though the Glyph is not made with immersive presence in mind, it is primarily a way to enjoy multimedia from the cell phone or other device, in a perfect view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_retinal_display
This approach produces several advantages over conventional display devices:

  • Potentially very small and lightweight, glasses mountable
  • Large field and angle of view, greater than 120 degrees
  • High resolution, approaching that of human vision
  • Full color with better potential color resolution than conventional displays
  • Brightness and contrast ratio sufficient for outdoor use
  • True stereo 3D display with depth modulation
  • Bypasses many of the eye's optical and retinal defects

And I would like to add:
Zero screen door effect. In a LCD or OLED screen, there are tiny spaces between each pixel. In a VRD, all pixels are tightly fit together, and don't actually look like pixels do on a screen.

Whoever is first to implement fully immersive VRD for their VR HMD will get the upper advantage - and indeed will win this VR war that has begun.

So it seems to me that either Sony or Facebook will have to "acquire" the entire Avegant company while they can.
 
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3. I don't want to give Facebook money. They are like weeds. Even if you don't deal with them yourself you can't avoid them on the internet. They have all those "like" buttons everywhere and that stupid comments system which slows websites down to a crawl. I wouldn't be so upset about them if they just kept themselves to their own customers.
I quite agree Frank.

If you want to be rid of the Facebook/social clutter on websites, you could install AdblockPlus in your browser (IE, Firefox, Chrome and Opera), then go HERE (or just click the following highlighted links here), and add 'Fanboy's Social Blocking List' (quite near the bottom of the page).

The default ad blocking list is 'EasyList', and you may wish to consider adding 'EasyPrivacy' and the Malware blocking list too.

LOL very good! :D Keep them coming.

p.s. I hope nobody seriously expects Oculus Rift to be beaming players with ads, as that is an insane proposition.

I was very surprised by the news. But software giants have on occasion diversified their portfolio by moving on to hardware in the past. Microsoft most notably..

This is great news. The more competition, the merrier.

TBH I am fairly certain there is one display technology that will trump all others in the design of fully immersive VR HMDs. That is the Virtual Retinal Display (VRD) technology of the Avegant Glyph. Though the Glyph is not made with immersive presence in mind, it is primarily a way to enjoy multimedia from the cell phone or other device, in a perfect view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_retinal_display
This approach produces several advantages over conventional display devices:

  • Potentially very small and lightweight, glasses mountable
  • Large field and angle of view, greater than 120 degrees
  • High resolution, approaching that of human vision
  • Full color with better potential color resolution than conventional displays
  • Brightness and contrast ratio sufficient for outdoor use
  • True stereo 3D display with depth modulation
  • Bypasses many of the eye's optical and retinal defects
And I would like to add:
Zero screen door effect. In a LCD or OLED screen, there are tiny spaces between each pixel. In a VRD, all pixels are tightly fit together, and don't actually look like pixels do on a screen.

Whoever is first to implement fully immersive VRD for their VR HMD will get the upper advantage - and indeed will win this VR war that has begun.

So it seems to me that either Sony or Facebook will have to "acquire" the entire Avegant company while they can.
OculusVR's Palmer Luckey on virtual retinal displays and the Avegant Glyph:
I have elaborated in several other posts. The short version: VRDs use a scanning point of coherent light (usually from a laser) to draw an image directly on your retina. The Glyph reflects incoherent light off a DLP chip from three different colored LEDs sequentially (a no-no for VR that Abrash has talked about at length on his blog, check out his post on color fringing artifacts). Both methods have advantages and disadvantages, but a true VRD is much further down the road, and one of the best potential display technologies for VR.

You are right that screens with big lenses in front of your eyes is essentially a brute force design, a design that relies on utilizing the scraps of the mobile phone industry to provide a good VR experience at the cost of performance and form factor. Doing better requires insane resources, which we now have.
And also about CV1:
He was referring to the Valve prototype that wowed everybody who got to try it recently. :)
 
OculusVR's Palmer Luckey on virtual retinal displays and the Avegant Glyph:
I have elaborated in several other posts. The short version: VRDs use a scanning point of coherent light (usually from a laser) to draw an image directly on your retina. The Glyph reflects incoherent light off a DLP chip from three different colored LEDs sequentially (a no-no for VR that Abrash has talked about at length on his blog, check out his post on color fringing artifacts). Both methods have advantages and disadvantages, but a true VRD is much further down the road, and one of the best potential display technologies for VR.

You are right that screens with big lenses in front of your eyes is essentially a brute force design, a design that relies on utilizing the scraps of the mobile phone industry to provide a good VR experience at the cost of performance and form factor. Doing better requires insane resources, which we now have.

So I take it that the way to eliminate colour fringing is to bounce lasers off the DLP? That sounds really cool but will a headset that zaps laser light into kiddies' eyeballs ever get product approval?
 
So I take it that the way to eliminate colour fringing is to bounce lasers off the DLP? That sounds really cool but will a headset that zaps laser light into kiddies' eyeballs ever get product approval?

It's not quite like that Frank, it doesn't hard zap your eyes with laser light but reflects and defuses it off mirrors angled into your eyes. I was reading about this tech some 10 years ago whilst living in Japan, it just never seem to come about.

Avegant Glyph is on this Virtual retinal display tech and is way ahead. It'll be interesting to see if the guys at Oculus/Facebook will be able to catch up with this tech. Can you imagine looking around and actually being there in the cockpit and not just looking at screens with cut off areas as you have in the Oculus? :)

f2dfe75af6744505fc659bba18e3b5c2_large.png


This tech has so much more application than just games. :D

 
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It's not quite like that Frank, it doesn't hard zap your eyes with laser light but reflects and defuses it off mirrors angled into your eyes. I was reading about this tech some 10 years ago whilst living in Japan, it just never seem to come about.

Avegant Glyph is on this Virtual retinal display tech and is way ahead. It'll be interesting to see if the guys at Oculus/Facebook will be able to catch up with this tech. Can you imagine looking around and actually being there in the cockpit and not just looking at screens with cut off areas as you have in the Oculus? :)

f2dfe75af6744505fc659bba18e3b5c2_large.png


This tech has so much more application than just games. :D


Indeed! I think VRD is the future of VR :D

whoever gets the VRD "right" first for VR.. will get a big head start.
 
Thanks for the info. I'll bet someone will stick TrackIR onto a Avegant Glyph to make themselves a Heath Robinson VR helmet that doubles as a movie viewer. :)

I just wonder what sort of lag this headset has. It can't be too bad if people are using it for playing games.
 
One thing I'm curious about with the Rift (having never used one)... do the black borders that I see on youtube demos exist when you're actually wearing them?

I have some movie screen glasses I bought a number of years ago for watching things in bed on my iPod whilst the other half slept. They were all the rage for a while, and they were OK apart from a lot of aberration and that it looked like you were watching a screen from a distance away.

Are they a bit like that? :S

Yep, you get boarders just not like those in the videos you see there. You tend not to focus on the boarders because of the game movement but if you look they're there. So, yes it's a bit like your movie screen glasses but you are completely closed in.

This is one of the reasons I think the Glyph will be even better than the Oculus, projecting right onto the back of your eyeballs is far sharper, far more immersive than looking at screens. The later incarnations of the Glyph will be be mind blowing (not that it isn't superb already).

Clipping from their site FAQ on the current Glyph:

9. What is the field of view?
Looking into the device you’ll see an image that looks like an 80 inch screen 8 feet away from you. That translates to about a 45 degree field of view.

10. Can you make that field of view bigger?
Yes. We’re actively exploring markets and applications that require a higher field of view.

11. Does this technology work with Virtual Reality?
Yes. The high resolution, lack of screen-door effect, and low latency of our technology makes it great for VR
. :)
 
You don't really see the borders as in the videos. What you see is a full image but you lose some peripheral vision. It's basically just like looking out of ski goggles - the physical presence of ski goggles cuts your FOV.

And seriously Pacalb... A 45 degree fov is abysmal! That alone means that Glyph needs to get MUCH better before it's anything approaching reasonable! The Rift has 90 to 110 degrees FOV (depending on eye relief). 45 degrees is utter junk.
 
You don't really see the borders as in the videos. What you see is a full image but you lose some peripheral vision. It's basically just like looking out of ski goggles - the physical presence of ski goggles cuts your FOV.

Yes, it's exactly like ski goggles.

And seriously Pacalb... A 45 degree fov is abysmal! That alone means that Glyph needs to get MUCH better before it's anything approaching reasonable! The Rift has 90 to 110 degrees FOV (depending on eye relief). 45 degrees is utter junk.

I don't think Pacalb seriously thinks Glyph is a contender for VR.. it's only made to enjoy already existing entertainment in a mobile yet private mode. F.ex. movies on your cell phone. I've tried to clarify this in my previous posts. The point I was trying to make, and maybe Pacalb did also mean to, is the actual display technology, called Virtual Retinal Display. And Pacalb also clarified it with #10, they are actively looking for the market potential for higher FOV. Obviously, there's a market potential.. they just happened to start from the "wrong" end of the spectrum (if immersive VR was your end game). Avegant Glyph is completely useless for generating the sense of "presence" that makes your subconscious brain think you are actually in a different place. It's only good for enjoying a movie, or a 3d movie. But, the core of the display technology of the Avegant Glyph is far superior to any OLED screen you will ever find. They just need to implement a high FOV version of it.. and yes, it will beat the socks out of anything else out there for the foreseeable future. There is nothing that will ever be able to beat the VRD. It's as close as you're gonna get to a "Matrix"-like connection to your eyeballs. Once VRD is implemented in a high FOV state, without perturbing RGB values (as Michael Abrash showed has detrimental consequences), then there is no screen that is ever going to get as good as that. You get a natural light reaching your eyes. It's just like watching things in real life. Like when you watch the walls of your own home right now, that's how much eye fatigue it's going to cause. Same as in real life. So there is zero eye wear. It's projecting photons directly to your retina. Not lasers, but very low energy LEDs. Because of the nature of the projection's micromirror array, there's no screen door effect. Pixels seem to blend together seamlessly, creating an incredibly bright and vibrant image.

In essence, this means you can say "good bye" to gamma corrections in games, because the gamma will be absolutely perfect for every person viewing it. This means that a dark stealth game like Thief or Splinter Cell will have a perfect amount of darkness and lighting, just like real life.
Also, you can say good bye to fake HDR and "bloom" effect (think Half-Life 2).. because the system itself will be able to generate bloom without a fake post-effect.

Also, you can say good bye to annoying "screen door effects" - which is the primary reason why they want an increase in the resolution.
Even at a low resolution, the VRD has zero screen door effect.. there simply is no space between the pixels.

Screen Door Effect

Go here to see how the Screen Door Effect of the various kinds of Oculus Rift will feel. These are approximations, and not fully representative of the real thing. It's a great demo.

http://vr.mkeblx.net/oculus-sim/

Btw, I'm still happy about my pre-order of the DK2.. I'm just looking farther ahead, and how VR can be made even better. And I'm sure Sony and Oculus are also seeing the end-game, which is a fully functional Virtual Retinal Display which can support high field of view. You need to be able to move your eyeball within the VRD, and you need to get light refracted via your biological lens, and that needs to include the peripheral vision.
 
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An 80 inch screen 8 feet away is pretty good for the job it was designed for, a movie viewer.

It would be great if the CV1 came with optics that could reduce the field of view for movies. I know that there is a movie viewer available for Oculus, but the more pixels doing the job of showing the movie the better.

Yes, I forgot it was THAT device. As you say - horses for courses... I certainly wouldn't want to use it for gaming as there's no way your get the magical, mystical "presence" with such a tiny FoV. CastAR still seems the most credible alternative just now.
 
they are actively looking for the market potential for higher FOV. Obviously, there's a market potential.. they just happened to start from the "wrong" end of the spectrum (if immersive VR was your end game).

Yeah, totally agree. Unfortunately this fact kind of screams to me that the people making the glyph are unimaginative and / or stupid. I don't expect anything good from them for VR. To even think there is a market for people to watch a movie on a headset... and then there is all the other stuff like refresh rate, persistance, latency, tracking they will get wrong.

Maybe they will license their technology patents to other companies. Maybe they won't.

The worst thing they could manage to do is alienate a lot of potential VR users by pushing a half baked product. That the glyph is even discussed as a VR headset shows they have either no scruples or understanding about this.

The best contenders for VR atm are the infiniteye guys: Even though they kind of blow it by doubling the costs for the display to increase the FOV. But at least they try out stuff :)
http://www.roadtovr.com/infiniteye-technical-qa-high-fov-virtual-reality-work

In essence, this means you can say "good bye" to gamma corrections in games, because the gamma will be absolutely perfect for every person viewing it. This means that a dark stealth game like Thief or Splinter Cell will have a perfect amount of darkness and lighting, just like real life.

Hmm, interesting. But I don't understand why this is fundamentally different to an OLED with something like 16 bit per channel (instead of the usual 8 bit).
 
The micro-mirror array tech (Texas Instruments DLP if my memory serves) that the Avegant uses has to *sequentially* display the primary colours: r/g/b in sequence. (The light comes from LEDs I believe).

Couple that with the fact that your head (in a VR context) is going to be moving about means that there will be serious colour fringing issues and smearing. It's a content viewer, probably a nice one, but not a VR platform.

Oleds put the full colour image up all at once - no colour seperation.

One day, super high-speed multicoloured lasers may well rasterize/scan all over your retinas, but that's quite a few years away yet I think.
 
Even with all the knocking about with what the Glyph can or cannot do, if you ever wanted to lay back and dive into the ED universe with a controller (or any game for that matter that can be used with a controller), it's going to give you a better experience than sitting in front of a monitor. Its more like sitting cinema and playing ED in ultra high detail. :)
 
Even with all the knocking about with what the Glyph can or cannot do, if you ever wanted to lay back and dive into the ED universe with a controller (or any game for that matter that can be used with a controller), it's going to give you a better experience than sitting in front of a monitor. Its more like sitting cinema and playing ED in ultra high detail. :)

I don't really understand the "ultra high detail" - isn't it 720p per eye? That's like 1.8Mp (total) right? And 1080p spread over 2 eyes is 2Mp, no? So is 720p (1280x720 per eye) better than 1080p (960x1080 per eye) for both eyes. I can imagine why it could be seeing as horizontal resolution is probably more important than vertical as that is how our vision works. Although I just closed one eye and isn't the vision from one eye alone just a circle? :S
 
The micro-mirror array tech (Texas Instruments DLP if my memory serves) that the Avegant uses has to *sequentially* display the primary colours: r/g/b in sequence. (The light comes from LEDs I believe).

Couple that with the fact that your head (in a VR context) is going to be moving about means that there will be serious colour fringing issues and smearing. It's a content viewer, probably a nice one, but not a VR platform.

Oleds put the full colour image up all at once - no colour seperation.

One day, super high-speed multicoloured lasers may well rasterize/scan all over your retinas, but that's quite a few years away yet I think.

So the rainbow artefacts aren't due to refraction? This means that the narrow colour band of lasers aren't going to cure that problem? But I take it that lasers are still the answer, whether it's strobing in a mixture of lasers before updating the mirror array, or having an array fine enough to have separate elements for each colour.

This doesn't just affect VR though, It means that the Avegant could make a pig's ear of action movies. The headset would be best for viewing still photographs and Woody Allen movies. How come no one reviewing this headset has said anything about this?
 
This doesn't just affect VR though, It means that the Avegant could make a pig's ear of action movies. The headset would be best for viewing still photographs and Woody Allen movies. How come no one reviewing this headset has said anything about this?

I'd completely forgotten about that (aborted for TV) DLP technology! It was terrible - I had a mate with a 60" DLP and he didn't notice it but I couldn't watch it for more than a few minutes without getting p'd off with the "rainbows". I assume they've made things much faster/better than the TV days, no?
 
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