The Bubble isn’t Big Enough Anymore for Hardcore BGS Players

[Tryst]

What killed Eve Online for me was the "them and us" strife between highsec and nullsec. If you had contacts in nullsec, you could go there and earn silly money mining with practically no risk. If not, you lived off a paltry existence in highsec, fighting over the limited slots for BP research and manufacture and looking at empty asteroid belts thanks to bot miners. Then the devs started pandering more and more to big alliances in nullsec, giving them more power against intruders, making it easier to camp the gates, making it even harder to sneak in to do some mining while they weren't looking. Yet doing nothing to help stop the overcrowding problem in highsec that was made up mostly of casual players who wouldn't be tolerated by the alliances in nullsec, because you had to schedule your playtime around their activities.

It's getting that way with ED now. A FC owner can earn silly money trading rares over long distances with a single jump. Rares are gone and stockpiled in a FC almost as soon as they spawn in the station, material sites are often stripped clean by all the players sitting on all the nearby carriers almost as soon as they respawn. Decent long distance trading routes are being saturated in a single jump by a FC. The best hauling missions never appear because several players are using carriers to set up shop in those systems. New Community Goals are saturated with players long before you can get there because a FC can jump there almost immediately while it takes you 25 or more jumps with fuel scooping in between. It's killing the game for anyone who doesn't already have a FC.

Thank god I play exclusively in solo, but even then, material sites spawns are spotty at best because others are farming them as well and rares disappear before you even get a chance to see them spawn too, I'm still competing against online hardcore players.

Seriously, there should be places a FC can't go. Emissions in the system and the surrounding systems that interfere with their drive to prevent them popping in and flooding a site of interest. Alternatively, those who play solo cannot then play in open, but they are not subject to the saturation of markets by open players or removal of spawns by open players. If necessary, give us two commanders per account like Eve Online Allows 3. Both can play exclusively in solo or one for open and the other solo, but they can't switch after you've chosen.

That's the problem with the game that FD never considered, I want a game where I can play completely solo and enjoy it in a casual sense like the original Elite games. I don't want a solo game where I'm still competing with other players because it bores the hell out of me, playing casual means not getting ANY of the good stuff because other players are still grabbing it first unless you a lucky enough to be there when it spawns. FC's make it even worse because they bridge the open/solo divide and make it pretty obvious you're not really playing solo, you are just invisible to other players in a standard MMO. The open/solo problem is the "Them and Us" for Elite. You can no more play casually in solo unless you want to earn a pittance on the leftovers, you must now play hardcore and become a FC owner and play far more in order to pay the upkeep and get the rares, the spawns at sites of interest, the decent trade runs, no more casual playing.

Now Odyssey is bringing us walking on planets. Yet they still failed to address the FC problem, sites of interest will be swarming with players on foot as well who can get there and strip it clean long before any non-FC owners can. Therefore, owning a FC becomes a necessity to compete, even if you play solo. "Them and us" again.

Going back to the size of the bubble, trade between Colonia and the Bubble will be dominated by FC owners who would make silly money and quickly saturate the market before you've even managed one trip in your Anaconda, so you're still back to earning a pittance on the leftovers.

What SHOULD have happened right from the start was for the bubble to be at least 3 or 4 times the size to allow for player growth. It should also have grown at a rate that accommodates player growth so the ratio between the number of players and the number of systems is constant, updated with new populated systems once every 3 or 4 months as the player base grows. Market saturation would still occur, but you would soon find other systems that weren't saturated. In addition, FC upkeep costs while the owner is offline should only apply if the ship has a transponder and is available for trade etc to other players 24/7. Without the transponder, it is totally private so others can't dock on it and it despawns with you when you log off. Even when you are online, it is only visible to you on the system map. In effect, it is just like any other ship you own. Now we can still have casual play because we know we can come back after a short break and know that the carrier hasn't just vanished because we weren't paying the upkeep. That would make it more like solo offline play. When I shut down a single player game like Fallout 4, it isn't still playing in the background with the generator chugging away and using fuel, so the base is completely dead when I load it up to play again.

 

[Screemonster]

The problem isn't the size of the bubble or the number of groups in it.

The problem is that ever since 3.3 there's been no brake on factions just blobbing out endlessly. No downside to expansion.
Universal states had their problems but at least they made a large empire take effort to manage, rather than just being able to ignore most of their systems unless something really major happens.

 

[Mrat13]

What killed Eve Online for me was the "them and us" strife between highsec and nullsec. If you had contacts in nullsec, you could go there and earn silly money mining with practically no risk. If not, you lived off a paltry existence in highsec, fighting over the limited slots for BP research and manufacture and looking at empty asteroid belts thanks to bot miners. Then the devs started pandering more and more to big alliances in nullsec, giving them more power against intruders, making it easier to camp the gates, making it even harder to sneak in to do some mining while they weren't looking. Yet doing nothing to help stop the overcrowding problem plauging highsec.

It's getting that way with ED now. A FC owner can earn silly money trading rares over long distances with a single jump. Rares are gone and stockpiled in a FC almost as soon as they spawn in the station, material sites are often stripped clean by all the players sitting on all the nearby carriers almost as soon as they respawn. Decent long distance trading routes are being saturated in a single jump by a FC. The best hauling missions never appear because several players are using carriers to set up shop in those systems. New Community Goals are saturated with players long before you can get there because a FC can jump there almost immediately while it takes you 25 or more jumps with fuel scooping in between. It's killing the game for anyone who doesn't already have a FC.

Thank god I play exclusively in solo, but even then, material sites spawns are spotty at best because others are farming them as well and rares disappear before you even get a chance to see them spawn too.

Seriously, there should be places a FC can't go. Emissions in the system and the surrounding systems that interfere with their drive to prevent them popping in and flooding a site of interest. Alternatively, those who play solo cannot then play in open, but they are not subject to the saturation of markets by open players or removal of spawns by open players. If necessary, give us two commanders per account like Eve Online Allows 3. Both can play exclusively in solo or one for open and the other solo, but they can't switch after you've chosen.

That's the problem with the game that FD never considered, I want a game where I can play completely solo and enjoy it in a casual sense like the original Elite games. I don't want a solo game where I'm still competing with other players because it bores the hell out of me, playing casual means not getting ANY of the good stuff because other players are still grabbing it first unless you a lucky enough to be there when it spawns. FC's make it even worse because they bridge the open/solo divide and make it pretty obvious you're not really playing solo, you are just invisible to other players in a standard MMO. The open/solo problem is the "Them and Us" for Elite. You can no more play casually in solo unless you want to earn a pittance on the leftovers, you must now play hardcore and become a FC owner and play far more in order to pay the upkeep and get the rares, the spawns at sites of interest, the decent trade runs, no more casual playing.

Now Odyssey is bringing us walking on planets. Yet they still failed to address the FC problem, sites of interest will be swarming with players on foot as well who can get there and strip it clean long before any non-FC owners can. Therefore, owning a FC becomes a necessity to compete, even if you play solo. "Them and us" again.

Going back to the size of the bubble, trade between Colonia and the Bubble will be dominated by FC owners who would make silly money and quickly saturate the market before you've even managed one trip in your Anaconda, so you're still back to earning a pittance on the leftovers.

What SHOULD have happened right from the start was for the bubble to be at least 3 or 4 times the size to allow for player growth. It should also have grown at a rate that accommodates player growth so the ratio between the number of players and the number of systems is constant, updated with new populated systems once every 3 or 4 months as the player base grows. Market saturation would still occur, but you would soon find other systems that weren't saturated. In addition, FC upkeep costs while the owner is offline should only apply if the ship has a transponder and is available for trade etc to other players 24/7. Without the transponder, it is totally private so others can't dock on it and it despawns with you when you log off. Even when you are online, it is only visible to you on the system map. In effect, it is just like any other ship you own. Now we can still have casual play because we know we can come back after a short break and know that the carrier hasn't just vanished because we weren't paying the upkeep. That would make it more like solo offline play. When I shut down a single player game like Fallout 4, it isn't still playing in the background with the generator chugging away and using fuel, so the base is completely dead when I load it up to play again.

A very elongated way of saying you think a carrier is OP, despite not owning one. Look, there are plenty of ways to make the money for one now, just look for the methods on the Internet. Buy one, try it out, then come back and if you still think they are OP, then I'll listen.

 

[RamirezKurita]

I'd argue that the bubble is about right for the number of player factions in it. You aren't meant to expand uncontested and the size limit encourages conflict between factions.

Large squadrons might have a lot of say in the BGS, but the more systems they control the more fronts they have to look after and the more enemies they make. Continue supporting your faction and you (alongside any other smaller groups the larger squadron is trampling over that you aren't aware of) will force the larger squadron to choose between keeping your faction down or defending themselves from rival squadrons. Sure, they might have the resources to negate anything you try, but any resources they allocate to you aren't going into defending themselves elsewhere.

 

[Tryst]

A very elongated way of saying you think a carrier is OP, despite not owning one. Look, there are plenty of ways to make the money for one now, just look for the methods on the Internet. Buy one, try it out, then come back and if you still think they are OP, then I'll listen.

You didn't read the rest where I said I like to play casual. Owning a FC for me is a complete no-go because I don't want to be forced to play when I don't feel like it in order to pay the upkeep. At the absolute most, I might manage 5 hours play a week. My sessions this week have earned me 50 million credits, it's going to be a very long time before I could ever own a carrier at that rate. Also, my limited play time means I would be spending most of my available playtime earning enough to pay the upkeep. Not exactly my idea of a fun game.

No, I don't think owning a FC is OP, any more than a Sidey owner thinks owning a Cutter is OP, anyone can work up to it.
What I DO think is OP is the fact that any site of interest and any Community Goal is swarming with FC owners. Those of us who like to play solo casual are still competing against other players, the only difference is that, when you are trading fire with another ship, you know it's a NPC and not another player. But you are still competing in trade, community goals and various spawns with hardcore open players. The FC just makes it even worse in that respect because many players can get there long before you finally arrive.
Community Goals for example, can be dominated by FC's because they can haul more than 10x what you can with every trip and get there in just one jump, that makes them pretty OP. Having that exclusion zone around the system in question means everyone has to long haul it and then, everyone has the same chance of hitting the top tiers.

I supported ED in the beginning, during the KS campaign because DB said there would be a "single player option". That infers OFFLINE single player like any other single player game. He went back on his word and made it an online solo player option instead, so you are still competing online in most cases. Had he said that at the start, I would never have backed the game.

 

[Mrat13]

You didn't read the rest where I said I like to play casual. Owning a FC for me is a complete no-go because I don't want to be forced to play when I don't feel like it in order to pay the upkeep. At the absolute most, I might manage 5 hours play a week. My sessions this week have earned me 50 million credits, it's going to be a very long time before I could ever own a carrier at that rate. Also, my limited play time means I would be spending most of my available playtime earning enough to pay the upkeep. Not exactly my idea of a fun game.

No, I don't think owning a FC is OP, any more than a Sidey owner thinks owning a Cutter is OP, anyone can work up to it.
What I DO think is OP is the fact that any site of interest and any Community Goal is swarming with FC owners. Those of us who like to play solo casual are still competing against other players, the only difference is that, when you are trading fire with another ship, you know it's a NPC and not another player. But you are still competing in trade, community goals and various spawns with hardcore open players. The FC just makes it even worse in that respect because many players can get there long before you finally arrive.
Community Goals for example, can be dominated by FC's because they can haul more than 10x what you can with every trip and get there in just one jump, that makes them pretty OP. Having that exclusion zone around the system in question means everyone has to long haul it and then, everyone has the same chance of hitting the top tiers.

I supported ED in the beginning, during the KS campaign because DB said there would be a "single player option". That infers OFFLINE single player like any other single player game. He went back on his word and made it an online solo player option instead, so you are still competing online in most cases. Had he said that at the start, I would never have backed the game.

Firstly, it's hard to read walls of text. Second, you talk about being uncompetitive against FCs, yet your play time is actually the problem. The people who have FCs, simply played more, so got rewarded for that. I don't see a problem with being rewarded for commitment, and if you do, then you have a very real lack of understanding how games work.

 

[DemiserofD]

The problem isn't the size of the bubble or the number of groups in it.

The problem is that ever since 3.3 there's been no brake on factions just blobbing out endlessly. No downside to expansion.
Universal states had their problems but at least they made a large empire take effort to manage, rather than just being able to ignore most of their systems unless something really major happens.

More fundamentally, the lack of purpose in BGS factions means there's nobody to fight the big ones, because... who cares?

If having an allied BGS faction actually mattered, then people might be more likely to fight back, and even big factions can be driven back by a thousand cuts from a thousand little factions.

But it doesn't matter, so most people would rather just ally themselves with the dominant faction and forget about it.

 

[Tryst]

Firstly, it's hard to read walls of text. Second, you talk about being uncompetitive against FCs, yet your play time is actually the problem. The people who have FCs, simply played more, so got rewarded for that. I don't see a problem with being rewarded for commitment, and if you do, then you have a very real lack of understanding how games work.

It seems you have a lack of understanding what CASUAL means.
I don't expect to get everything tomorrow given my play time.
However, I also don't expect to have to earn a pittance when I do play, making the journey toward that end goal even slower than it already is.
That's why I prefer single player, I can advance at my own pace, but my overall playtime to get something is the same as someone who plays all day every day.

MMO's do not allow for casual play because those who advance faster become dominant and push the casual players out. Hence why I backed the idea of a single player option for the game, not an online solo play.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

MMO's do not allow for casual play because those who advance faster become dominant and push the casual players out.

It’s entirely subjective as opinions are but as a semi-professional casual player myself I don’t find the same problems because by at heart I don’t find (or perhaps don’t play) Elite as a competitive game; unless you’re into PvP which due to engineering requirements and flight model requires a certain level of dedication anyway, or deep into the BGS, at most it’s a game of indirect competition. I must be touching 500+ hours into my CMDR’s career and I’m nowhere near a fleet carrier myself, but that’s ok because I temper my expectations especially because my casual playstyle doesn’t need one. As a self-described casual player you don’t need to measure yourself against someone with more time to play and more time served, just set yourself smaller more achievable goals and compete against yourself. Rove around the Bubble, become allied with a few different factions rather than try and outgrind a single well-supported faction, take part in CGs for the experience and to be a small part of the story rather than pushing to hit the top bands. Carriers certainly make bulk trading easier but there are dedicated players who make it into the top haulage brackets without them still.

If you want to play Elite casual then do that, be casual about it and just bumble about being a lone space cowboy in a big galaxy.

 

[Screemonster]

It’s entirely subjective as opinions are but as a semi-professional casual player myself I don’t find the same problems because by at heart I don’t find (or perhaps don’t play) Elite as a competitive game; unless you’re into PvP which due to engineering requirements and flight model requires a certain level of dedication anyway, or deep into the BGS, at most it’s a game of indirect competition. I must be touching 500+ hours into my CMDR’s career and I’m nowhere near a fleet carrier myself, but that’s ok because I temper my expectations especially because my casual playstyle doesn’t need one. As a self-described casual player you don’t need to measure yourself against someone with more time to play and more time served, just set yourself smaller more achievable goals and compete against yourself. Rove around the Bubble, become allied with a few different factions rather than try and outgrind a single well-supported faction, take part in CGs for the experience and to be a small part of the story rather than pushing to hit the top bands. Carriers certainly make bulk trading easier but there are dedicated players who make it into the top haulage brackets without them still.

If you want to play Elite casual then do that, be casual about it and just bumble about being a lone space cowboy in a big galaxy.

also I've not done the rares thing for a while but as far as I know one player buying up their allocation doesn't deplete the supply for anyone in solo

sure, there are some commodities with limited supply/demand regeneration that large numbers of players can deplete (try getting hold of palladium in decent quantities anywhere near Diaguandri, for instance) but the vast majority of the time it isn't an issue

For instance, last week I went mining platinum. There were carriers in the system that had their names set to say they were buying for 240k. I checked out a couple, but their buy orders had already been filled and I couldn't be bothered getting more, so I just hopped back to the system I'd been working in earlier in the day where I knew I could sell it for 220k.
Was that the top price in the galaxy? No.
Was it a price I knew I could get and hadn't been snapped up that I could get right now? Yes.
I very rarely bother using the eddb finder for the best possible bestest prices you can get, because they're often out of date on account of everyone swarming them as soon as they show in the search. I just look for an industrial station in boom and I know I'll be able to get an okay price without having to scour the galaxy for somewhere that hasn't been rushed.

This is the biggest problem with these tools - people end up learning to rely on them and get burned when they turn out not to be accurate, instead of learning how to hunt down a good price without using the tools.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

What killed Eve Online for me was the "them and us" strife between highsec and nullsec. If you had contacts in nullsec, you could go there and earn silly money mining with practically no risk. If not, you lived off a paltry existence in highsec, fighting over the limited slots for BP research and manufacture and looking at empty asteroid belts thanks to bot miners. Then the devs started pandering more and more to big alliances in nullsec, giving them more power against intruders, making it easier to camp the gates, making it even harder to sneak in to do some mining while they weren't looking. Yet doing nothing to help stop the overcrowding problem in highsec that was made up mostly of casual players who wouldn't be tolerated by the alliances in nullsec, because you had to schedule your playtime around their activities.

I certainly agree with your general point that a "player-driven economy" is not necessarily a good thing, nor even a workable one in Elite Dangerous.

It's getting that way with ED now. A FC owner can earn silly money trading rares over long distances with a single jump. Rares are gone and stockpiled in a FC almost as soon as they spawn in the station, material sites are often stripped clean by all the players sitting on all the nearby carriers almost as soon as they respawn. Decent long distance trading routes are being saturated in a single jump by a FC. The best hauling missions never appear because several players are using carriers to set up shop in those systems. New Community Goals are saturated with players long before you can get there because a FC can jump there almost immediately while it takes you 25 or more jumps with fuel scooping in between. It's killing the game for anyone who doesn't already have a FC.

None of this is true. The FCs are useful tools - or people wouldn't buy them - but none of the things you attribute to them are actually caused by them.

1) Rares: rare allocations are for the individual commander only. You'll get the same (small) amount of rares no matter who else is buying. Further, I would guess that absolutely no-one is using a carrier to trade rares for profit (for fun, sure, a few will be) when bulk trade goods which can be bought at 20x the rate can make a higher profit on a 1-jump trip for a T-9 than a rare will at max range.

2) Materials: I'm not sure what you mean here, but no - the only thing where other players even affect what you see is core mining, where the cores respawn every week or so ... but the hotspots are huge, and the bubble is huge, and the fringe of pristine systems around the bubble is even bigger. Core mining rates are nowhere near high enough to cause this to run out.

3) Long-distance trading routes: virtually no trade goods ever spend their time below the cap because trade goods regenerate far faster than they're traded, and most non-rare trade goods have perfectly good short range routes. You could saturate some low-supply/demand routes with a single player in a carrier ... but two players with no carrier flying engineered Imperial Cutters could also saturate the same route in about the same time.

4) Hauling missions: mission generation is strange, but it appears to be an individual thing - other people can't take the missions away from you. There are thousands of systems which get a player visiting a day if that, and which don't get any better or worse missions than the ones with hundreds of players present.

5) Community Goals: you can get from any point to the bubble to any other point in about ten minutes without a carrier in a fast ship [1], or in at least twenty minutes with one even if you're only moving 50 LY over. CGs are full of players by the time you get there because there are a lot of players and some of them were already nearby. The majority of players participating in a CG don't show up until the weekend (and this was true of CGs before carriers were introduced too) - so you've got a couple of days to get there before it's really busy.

If, as you say, you can play about 5 hours a week, you're unlikely to get above "top 50%" in most CGs anyway, because you'll be competing with players who put in a lot more time. But that's because they play 5 hours a day, not because they own carriers.

[1] Edge to edge of the bubble is ~400 LY, a fast ship can have a range of 50 LY or so and still do something useful when it gets there, so eight jumps in the worst case ... four or five worst case if the CG is somewhat central ... no problem. If you're taking 25 jumps because you don't own a fast ship yet either (well, that or your route plotter has switched to economic mode while you weren't looking) ... well, the carrier's still only five minutes faster than you for that, which isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference over the course of the week. (But if you don't own the best non-carrier ship for the job yet, it's not the carriers other players have which are giving them the competitive advantage, such as there is any competition for them to be advantaged in, it's the flyable ships)

What SHOULD have happened right from the start was for the bubble to be at least 3 or 4 times the size to allow for player growth. It should also have grown at a rate that accommodates player growth so the ratio between the number of players and the number of systems is constant, updated with new populated systems once every 3 or 4 months as the player base grows.

One of my theories for why the bubble hasn't significantly grown in the last six years is that they started it off several times too large for the size of their initial player base, and therefore further expansion just worsens the problem.

The current player base is still - BGS sprawl aside - too small to support the bubble, which could be a quarter of its current size without any significant effect on non-BGS gameplay. There are thousands of systems which get maybe two or three people visiting them a day, and some of those might only get a person a week. You already have all the space to yourself you want ... for non-BGS purposes.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Looks like we need a new definition: PSF, Player Supported Faction. This includes NPC factions supported by players, but does not include abandoned PMF's. The test could be "has a currently-active Squadron pledged to it" (with "active" defined by last login).

You do know that there’s quite a few BGS players who either don’t belong to squadrons, or belong to squadrons who are doing BGS work for reasons other than expanding a single faction into a minor Star Empire, right?

 

[Darkfyre99]

The bubble has not been big enough for a long time. Loads of players mashed into a small area means traders have seen marked drops in income due to saturated markets, bounty hunters fighting over the same big money targets, miners finding their market also saturated and so on.

We need a bigger place to move around, but FD seems adamant that we must see a mansion with hundreds of rooms all around us, but we all must only live in one room while the rest of the mansion is wasted space.

400 BILLION stars and only 20K inhabited systems = 1/20,000,000 of the available space being used.
That's a lot of space in the game wasted.

That was kind of the point of making this game multi-player: players would be able to affect things in the game, leading to a dynamic situation that players need to respond to do well, as opposed to grinding the same thing ad nauseum. This game, and it’s economic sim, used to be even more responsive, but some players complained about not being able grind for guaranteed results, so Frontier indulged them...

 

[Chrystoph]

Pardon me if this is overly cynical, but isn't this entire thread founded on an attempt at legitimizing something that isn't even officially part of the game play?

The point I am looking at is that BackGround Simulation (BGS) manipulation, while existent at the player level, isn't ACTUALLY an official function of the game since Literally everything you do except flying around in circles in empty space influences the BGS.

The fact is that you choose to work toward a goal that makes a certain change in a faction, or group of factions, is a self appointed task, not something offered, or demanded, by anything in the game play.

 

[goemon]

isn't ACTUALLY an official function of the game

things have changed since 2016/2017.

there even is a squadron leaderboard "political" - "Maintain a large and happy faction." (It's broken and exploitable, so nobody cares; it's not restricted to squadrons pledged to "player minor factions" - but it is part of the game very much)

 

[Chrystoph]

things have changed since 2016/2017.

there even is a squadron leaderboard "political" - "Maintain a large and happy faction." (It's broken and exploitable, so nobody cares; it's not restricted to squadrons pledged to "player minor factions" - but it is part of the game very much)

May be true, but that is not part of the Game Play, that is part of a leaderboard, and it is a comparison, not an objective.

 

[Screemonster]

You do know that there’s quite a few BGS players who either don’t belong to squadrons, or belong to squadrons who are doing BGS work for reasons other than expanding a single faction into a minor Star Empire, right?

Yeah, the faction I support has changed like three times in the last month.
Even when I was doing the solo anarchist thing last year, there's no way for me to pledge to anyone since I was supporting a government type rather than any singular faction.

 

[goemon]

May be true, but that is not part of the Game Play, that is part of a leaderboard, and it is a comparison, not an objective.

but those mechanics (alligning a squadron to a minor faction, using the leasderport to compete) are functions of the game - fully optional, and in this case very broken - but still. they are an "official function" (which is what i was replying to).

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I wonder if, as nice as it is to have a PMF to support, it was a mistake to allow them in the first place? I know I know, emergent gameplay and all that, but my impression is that the BGS was never meant to be a game of galactic Risk.

Yeah, that was Powerplay

Ooops, now i've summoned Rubbernuke!

 

[Sunyavadin]

1) Rares: rare allocations are for the individual commander only. You'll get the same (small) amount of rares no matter who else is buying. Further, I would guess that absolutely no-one is using a carrier to trade rares for profit (for fun, sure, a few will be) when bulk trade goods which can be bought at 20x the rate can make a higher profit on a 1-jump trip for a T-9 than a rare will at max range.

The most I can imagine is multi-boxing several accounts all parked at the carrier, landing them all at the station and buying all the rares available on all of them, then loading them all onto the carrier, grabbing them on your main, and selling them one carrier jump later, but there are VASTLY more efficient ways of making money. Nobody is gonna seriously consider the amount of effort that'd go into this.