The Concord Cannon

[Three Stars]

Finally unlocked it today. Given the tendency for powerplay weapons to split their damage into 3 shots which forces you to spend more time and breach rolls to get module damage, my expectations were kind of low.

Fortunately, they exceeded my expectations by a lot. My initial attempts were with Short Range engineering, since as a gimbaled weapon they're going to be near impossible to aim with precision beyond close and medium ranges. I tried 3 of them on the Cobra V and the Alliance Challenger. When you trigger them you get 3 fairly rapid automatic volleys followed by a mandatory pause. The sound is really well done. 3 big booms.

The breach damage per shot was about 24 and the baseline breach chance is 60%. This means that your initial volley can be expected to do only 60% of the listed damage to a module on average, sometimes more and sometimes less depending on how the dice roll. Still, 216 potential breach damage to a power plant is a lot, and 129.6 damage to a power plant is still a very respectable number with expected breach rolls.

The big downsides are that you're susceptible to chaff, so all precision goes out the window in that case. Plus, I was noticing some failure to fire when gimbaled cannons were blocked by the hull.

If you're close by and lined up, and have corrosive active, you can do comical power plant damage to lower ranked ships. A competent Anaconda was planted by one volley of 3 Concord Cannons at 90% hull in haz res. Vultures and ships that skip hull day also seem to take a bunch of damage.

 

[Darrack]

I have 3 on my MkV overcharged and autoloader, very impressed.

O7

 

[Elpapo]

My initial attempts were with Short Range engineering, since as a gimbaled weapon they're going to be near impossible to aim with precision beyond close and medium ranges.

Not quite. 5% more damage on SRB does not being worth 50% less range vs OC, and it being gimballed does not mean it cannot hit target in larger distances.

I killed so many cmdrs with it already, and many of those kills was actually done at 2km or more, right up to its max range. If further than 2km, dont bother with module sniping, just deliver those all projectiles into hull. It works... and not to mention running targets... SRB is next to useless against runners, while OC handles it like a champ.

This weapon does not have any dmg falloff, and after using it for while, even if used against small ships, most of projectiles hits its mark, even at max range at 3,5km, with often all shots being delivered. Sometimes oddly 2-3 projectiles from salvos might miss, but when you shot 18 or 15 projectiles per salvo, each doing 24 dmg, you still have next to nothing of dmg lost, give rate of fire this weapon can deliver, all that when target is at medium range, as upclose, hit rate becomes 100% for all projetiles per salvo.
Surely module sniping is gets more difficult more range is, but its still can knock out FSD's or plants, even at 2-3km ranges, and if one is after hull damage instead, then this weapon works very well up to its max range. If would use SRB instead, I surely would score way less kills, due of 1,8km limit.

Also, in PVP, that 1,8km limit is not good either, you want have upper hand in range vs PA or frags users with that weapon.

 

[Three Stars]

I was speaking purely about module sniping, which seems to be the logical thing to do with a weapon with high breach chance. As you said, it’s something that’s most practical within 2 km.

Gimbal wiggle always adds error to aim. The further the target, the more the error multiplies.

 

[Elpapo]

I was speaking purely about module sniping, which seems to be the logical thing to do with a weapon with high breach chance.

Its equally good at reducing hull at distance, like it is at close range for module sniping, but there is catch.

As you said, it’s something that’s most practical within 2 km.

Gimbal wiggle always adds error to aim. The further the target, the more the error multiplies.

Yup, that wiggle aint as bad it might sounds like... and about 3,5km is probly limit in order to archive 75% hit rate, when there is 12 or more projectiles shot per salvo, vs small sized ships.

2 or 3 of these weapon, are not really good at reducing hull (still being decent in module dmg), but when there is 5(15) or 6(18) or 7(21) concord cannons at once, then its one of most powerfull known source of pure kinetic madness, that is in game for cmdrs, but only when right mod is used, wich is only OC. Rest of mods either dont have enough dps and range at same time, to be about as effective.

Each "bullet" does 24 damage (OC), and it can be stacked by simply adding more concord cannons to single firegroup.

With 7, there is 21 bullets shot per single 3 burst salvo, and thats already over 500 kinetic dmg (1500 dmg per reload / 2000 with autoloader per reload). Even accounting high resists and hull hardness, its still gonna hurt and hits quite hard, since total dmg potential is over 50k kinetic. There isn't much of bulids that can tank that much, both in % of hull and thier modules. With that kind of dmg, upclose its an absolute monster for module sniping OR if very good kinetic dmg dealer to hull, right up to max range of 3,5km.

While undersizing c4 and c3 hardpoints with concord cannons might sound like wierd idea for some, those numbers dont lie, and are quite effective indeed, it might become meta sooner or later, when more cmdrs unlocks it and realize the true potential of this weapon.

While it sounds nice on paper, there is limited options to abuse above as only ships that can use 7 is cutter or T10, p2 and conda are only ones wich can use 6, and rest of ships are either locked with 5 or less, due of hardpoints sizes and numbers.

Biggest drawback of those full concord cannon bulids, is those can be countered by bulids that are made specifically to deal with such. It wont be long for those to emerge if case of event, that this weapon became meta at some point.

 

[Kissamies]

It's a good weapon. For ammo endurance in PVE it feels like it sits between a multicannon and regular cannon. Lasts for a nice time even without high capacity mod. I would use SRB for more agressive build and overcharged with dazzle shell more defensively, but OC is bugged and I don't think it's fixed yet. If you completely empty your OC concord cannon, the stations won't reload it any more. Something to do with the blueprint's magazine reduction and the cannon's insistence of firing 3 shells even if there's a reload between the shots.

 

[Elpapo]

It's a good weapon. For ammo endurance in PVE it feels like it sits between a multicannon and regular cannon. Lasts for a nice time even without high capacity mod. I would use SRB for more agressive build and overcharged with dazzle shell more defensively, but OC is bugged and I don't think it's fixed yet. If you completely empty your OC concord cannon, the stations won't reload it any more. Something to do with the blueprint's magazine reduction and the cannon's insistence of firing 3 shells even if there's a reload between the shots.

Autoloader fixes any issue with OC, and long as last loaded mag is full at 9 it can reload at stations. Those "workarounds" are well worth it, as other mods are simply waste of potential for that weapon. SRB lacks neccecary range while other mods lacks enough damage, leaving only OC to be the only and right mod to use, despite being bugged.

 

[Kissamies]

Autoloader fixes any issue with OC, and long as last loaded mag is full at 9 it can reload at stations. Those "workarounds" are well worth it, as other mods are simply waste of potential for that weapon. SRB lacks neccecary range while other mods lacks enough damage, leaving only OC to be the only and right mod to use, despite being bugged.

My intuition does say that OC might be best mod, but I haven't dared to test it extensively because of the bug. I will have to see to that workaround. I've been mainly using it for popping power plant while other weapons are main damage dealers. For that SRB is fine. Also very initially I tried the high capacity, but the weapon is too weak without damage bonuses and it doesn't really need more ammo that bad.

 

[Elpapo]

My intuition does say that OC might be best mod, but I haven't dared to test it extensively because of the bug. I will have to see to that workaround.

Your intution tell ya right. The bug only is an effect when you got less than 9 ammo in chamber, reserve ammo does not matter here. So, say if you get ammo out, just make sure you got that 9 ammo in chamber loaded. Then it will rearm in stations, and autoloader also helps with other bug, when re-loading game, it get 1 ammo out of chamber per loading, and this without autoloader can cause having 8 or 7 ammo in chamber, and without autoloader fixing it, it will cause auto-shooting once weapon is reloading, cuz of 3 burst nature of weapon.

I've been mainly using it for popping power plant while other weapons are main damage dealers. For that SRB is fine. Also very initially I tried the high capacity, but the weapon is too weak without damage bonuses and it doesn't really need more ammo that bad.

Thats the thing, cmdrs out there only uses it for module sniping(it does it very well), but it works extremely well as pure dps as well, that can be dealt to hull directly, but only if lots of cannons are used in same time, and thats what I trying to tell here. Point is, that there no need to use any other weapons to as "main dmg dealer" just stack those cannons and use it as main dmg dealer with ability to knock out modules if up-close.

SRB lacks that range, 1,8km makes it more accurate frag cannon, but during fights, sometimes you want have litte distance, and vs frags, you dont want be closer than 2 km, anyway. There is no falloff so damage isn't lost at all at distance, unlike most of weapons out there, and like said in ealier posts, gimball "wiggle" can still archive 75% hit rate, even against small ships, and hit rate increases with size of target.



Besides "workaround" usage of autoloader, it does work very well with that weapon, increasing total amount of salvos from 3 to 4, and thus increasing dps by 25% per each reload, becasue at time when 3rd salvo is fired, autoloader will load meanwhile at that time those 3 shots thus allowing shot once more before need to reload.

 

[Three Stars]

I’d love to use High Yield Shell on something like this, but the 35% damage loss is going to hurt badly. 16 damage per hit doesn’t move the needle, especially if MRPs are involved, and each shot still will need a breach roll. You’d have to mass them like crazy to make up for it which means you’re a one trick pony. Given the choice I’d rather diversify my hardpoints.

Going pure kinetic starts to hit the wall in CZs against spongy hulls. It’s why smaller multicannons really fall off in there.

Force Shell would be fun. The damage/force per hit would be low but you make up for it in volume.

There’s also the spray and pray technique. Long Range plus Smart Rounds. Just fire indiscriminately into crowds.

 

[Elpapo]

I’d love to use High Yield Shell on something like this, but the 35% damage loss is going to hurt badly. 16 damage per hit doesn’t move the needle, especially if MRPs are involved, and each shot still will need a breach roll. You’d have to mass them like crazy to make up for it which means you’re a one trick pony. Given the choice I’d rather diversify my hardpoints.

Force Shell would be fun. The damage/force per hit would be low but you make up for it in volume.

Both experimentals are waste on this weapon, and if there is anyone who thinks those are any good to use in concord cannons, I'd say they dont know what they talkin about. Truly.

High yield does nerf damage too much (almost completly negates OC or SRB dmg bonuses - AOE is not large either), so ships with high kinetic/explosive resists and bunch of MRP's will laugh it off, while force shells does not pack too much "force" as pushback power is scales heavy with damage stat (and only with that) and that -33% speed nerf makes hitting targets more difficult, as its noticable easier to evade - not to mention, force shell is terrible to for finishing off running targets.... good luck score kill vs someone who trying to run, with that, lol.

Again, the only true setup for concord's are OC with autoloader, as any other combination is magnitudes worse than that.

 

[Three Stars]

Both experimentals are waste on this weapon, and if there is anyone who thinks those are any good to use in concord cannons, I'd say they dont know what they talkin about. Truly.

High yield does nerf damage too much (almost completly negates OC or SRB dmg bonuses - AOE is not large either), so ships with high kinetic/explosive resists and bunch of MRP's will laugh it off, while force shells does not pack too much "force" as pushback power is scales heavy with damage stat (and only with that) and that -33% speed nerf makes hitting targets more difficult, as its noticable easier to evade - not to mention, force shell is terrible to for finishing off running targets.... good luck score kill vs someone who trying to run, with that, lol.

Again, the only true setup for concord's are OC with autoloader, as any other combination is magnitudes worse than that.

Maybe you could stop attacking the hypothetical people who are disagreeing with you. I don’t know if this is a translation/language thing or what, but implying that people are idiots isn’t going to make me want to talk to you.

I tried OC Concord Cannons today. The ammo bug makes them downright annoying due to the “fire two…then one” thing that happens with reload. Even if it fixes the bug, there are more useful experimentals than auto-loader. Dispersal field, for one. Even oversized does more sDPS. Between 2-3.5 km I was only making reliable hits when my target was gracious enough to fly in a straight line. As I indicated before, the gimbaling causes aim error that makes them unreliable at range. Given the choice, I’d rather they hit 100% of the time up close than whatever they were doing at their range limit.

In a CZ the damage was notably reduced by the same resistances that make multicannons less useful, and that included module damage.

 

[Elpapo]

Maybe you could stop attacking the hypothetical people who are disagreeing with you. I don’t know if this is a translation/language thing or what, but implying that people are idiots isn’t going to make me want to talk to you.

Dont take it personally, I didnt meant harm or attack you in person...

But I guess this misuderstooding cames because what I had meant ealier about cannons, was mainly applied to PVP, while you where talking about PVE usage, hence dissagrement in our respective opinions. Thats all there is to it. We are not from same "side" in game and thats why you act such way, along refusing listen to my advices. Dont worry, I cant send you to rebui here. I just want help with sharing some of my knowledge, and correct lost souls to right into... right ways.

I tried OC Concord Cannons today. The ammo bug makes them downright annoying due to the “fire two…then one” thing that happens with reload. Even if it fixes the bug, there are more useful experimentals than auto-loader.

It sounds like you did not tried autoloader at all.... I can tell because of that you had so-called "fire two...then one", wich autoloader, does helps it "fix" by loading those ammo in chamber all the time. With autoloader, you dont get anymore "fire two... then one" at all.

“fire two…then one” is another bug, an separate issue than "cant reload at station"; its when you get 8, 7 or 5, 4 or 2, 1 shots instead of 9,6,3.

If you save your game and exit to main menu or exit game, when you reload back online, you will always -1 ammo in chamber, example, if you had 9 ammo, then it will be 8... and go on. But due 3 shot burst, this weapon, if shot last salvo, say it had left 2 shots and then reload, that remain 1 shot will be auto-shoted on its own (even if there is no WEP distro) once reload is complete after 4 sec.

Thats why autoloader helps both ways, and as bonus, increases DPS by 25% per reload, and have no downsides whatsoever.

Dispersal field, for one.

Chaff works better and longer. Dual chaff is counters any gimballs quite hard, and has no cooldown, this effect has 15 sec cooldown and cant be stacked. Not worth over 25% dps per reload...

Even oversized does more sDPS.

Mate, hows oversized does more dps than autoloader???
This is what I exacly had in my mind, when I said that some cmdrs does not have idea what they are talkin about, I might add.



Lets do some math, shall we?

Lets say we are using krait II with 5 OC concord cannons, all at grade 5 (stage 2/5) wich does exacly 24 dmg per projectile. This will count dmg done per single reload, and will include oversized effect, and when done pressing fire trigger fast as possible, to reach max ROF.

24 dmg + 3% from oversized = 24.72 dmg

24.72 dmg x 5 (condord cannons amout) = 123.6 dmg

123.6 dmg x 3( 3-shot burst) = 370.8 dmg

370.8 dmg x 3 (since chamber is 9, it shots 3 times w/o autoloader) = 1112.4

Total dmg per single reload is: 1112.4

Now, lets repeat that with autoloader;

24 dmg x 5 (condord cannons amout) = 120 dmg

120 dmg x 3 (3-shot burst) = 360 dmg

360 dmg x 4 (since chamber is 9+3, it shots 4 times with autoloader) = 1440

Total dmg per single reload is: 1440


Now then... I dont know how you see it, but 1440 is higher number than that 1112.4 so I ask again here, hows oversized have better dps than autoloader?

Between 2-3.5 km I was only making reliable hits when my target was gracious enough to fly in a straight line.

Plenty of npcs flying in straight line, so do cmdrs. Skillfull flying with faoff vectoring allows to "catch" even npcs, when they boost stall, even at max range... but this is high level stuff, and explaing that further would take to write another 1000 characters, and I have doubts that you would get any of it, so I pass on that.

As I indicated before, the gimbaling causes aim error that makes them unreliable at range. Given the choice, I’d rather they hit 100% of the time up close than whatever they were doing at their range limit.

Thats good. But point was that even at max range, wich is 3,5km, about 75% of your projectiles, will hit somewhere your target, even if they are small sized ship. Thats given, if you use atleast 5 concord cannons or more, if use less than 5, hit rate becomes exponentialy lower, due of lesser amount of projectiles done per salvo.

In a CZ the damage was notably reduced by the same resistances that make multicannons less useful, and that included module damage.

Of course it is, since cannons does 100% kinetic dmg, or 66/33 explosive/kinetic if high yield is used. High resists does nullify kinetic dmg, as shots are that breaching hull are affected by both hull hardness and respective resists, thats why you want MUCH of dps you can get, on those cannons, and much as many as your ship can carry, to be effective, even at PVE CZ, thats all.

Best part that is when you truly realize this, you will then know where you ways went wrong, and not matter how you would hate it, you gonna admit that I was right about all of this.

 

[Three Stars]

but this is high level stuff, and explaing that further would take to write another 1000 characters, and I have doubts that you would get any of it, so I pass on that.

Thanks for coming down from Olympus, your highness.

 

[Kira Goto]

My two cents on this subject…

People don’t do PvE to build their ships according to the meta and min-maxing of PvP. Or do PvP, aside from the happenstance of someone happening to be on the opposite side in a conflict zone (where they will likely be using a PvE built ship as well).

So coming into a thread lecturing about it and only focusing on the maximum possible damage output component, doesn’t seem like adding to the discussion much. Especially if you then begin to disagree claiming your objective truth when people may be after fun or what works for their build or way of playing rather than just “The Most Efficient”. Someone who does PvE, as I said, might not be interested in PvP so insisting on the latter when the former is the subject, is bizarre.

 

[St0rmFury]

Best ship for concord cannons? I'm guessing either Mandy or CMK5.

 

[Blaggerdy]

I'm having fun in a Fer-de-lance with four sturdy / high yield concord cannons, plus a large beam for shields. Don't really care if it's not optimal, can take out some enemies with 1 or 2 clips and I suspect when it takes longer it's often me not knowing the weak spots of particular ships

Not so effective against a spec ops wing this morning but the alpha and a couple of others didn't survive before my ammo ran dry - I don't synth

 

[Neilski]

Thats good. But point was that even at max range, wich is 3,5km, about 75% of your projectiles, will hit somewhere your target, even if they are small sized ship. Thats given, if you use atleast 5 concord cannons or more, if use less than 5, hit rate becomes exponentialy lower, due of lesser amount of projectiles done per salvo.

I may be missing something, because I can't conceive of a reason why the hit rate would be anything other than constant (if expressed as a fraction of the projectiles that hit the target), or proportional to the number of projectiles launched (if expressed as number of projectiles that hit the target per unit time).
Where/how does the exponentially-lower bit come into play when you change the number of cannons fitted to the ship?

 

[Three Stars]

Best ship for concord cannons? I'm guessing either Mandy or CMK5.

Amy ship that features medium hardpoints as a major part of their armament, and where those hardpoints aren’t potentially blocked by their own hull or are maneuverable enough to compensate. You’ll also want/need other hardpoints to sprinkle in corrosive for hulls since their AP value is a bit anemic.

The “blocked by the hull” part is harder than it appears, since you don’t get many ships with medium hardpoints as beautifully centered dorsal primary damage dealers. They’re most often the seasoning, not the main course, so they tend to be hiding underneath the ship, beneath wings, set back on the hull, etc. Gimbals need line of sight to fire, so you get situations where they fail to fire unless you are bang on facing your target.

I’d say the better choices without undersizing are the Cobra Mk V (because it’s so nimble and can bring the underside mediums to bear easily), FDL (4 topside mediums), and Federal Gunship (4 forward mediums and 3 other hardpoints for versatility. Don’t forget to use Yaw).

The Mandalay also works due to nimbleness but two of the mediums are tucked away under the wings. The Challenger has 3 nicely clustered mediums on the bottom but you do have to nose up a bit to get all 3 to reliably fire. There’s also the Federal Dropship if you enjoy flying Tokyo drift all the time. The Imperial Courier works too, although you’re starting to run out of hardpoints.

The Python Mk II is a really good choice if you’re willing to undersize some of your hardpoints. The upper outer large hardpoints aren’t great for fixed weapons but they’d do just fine with gimbaled cannons. Those plus the natural mediums gives you 4 easily aimed Concords. It also saves you power which is very much a thing that’s needed for the P2.

 

[Kissamies]

Diamondback Explorer/Scout may also work fine with their side mounted medium hardpoints. I was thinking of converting my sneaky DBS back to human infiltration loadout and arming it with these weapons now that Thargoids are gone and it's not necessary to infiltrate spire sites. I've been too busy with other projects to get to it.