Newcomer / Intro The Crippling Debt

[toretorden]

Hi guys!

Although I spent a lot of time in Frontier : Elite II when I was a kid, I'm relatively new to Elite : Dangerous. A lot of the same elements are there, which I love.

But, I am having a little trouble. I mined and traded my way up to a viper and - I'm gonna be honest, both trading and mining got old reasonably fast. Hence, I was looking forward to doing some fighting. To get to the core of it, I am now up to my ears in debt. I died in some high intensity conflict zone, wanted revenge, got back, got dead .. Now it seems I gotta make quite a bit of cash before I can even start looking for that next ship or upgrade. The game only lets me have one game, it seems, so it's not like I can have fun on my other save.

Is there anything I can do besides making money in a safer way that will let me get rid of some of this debt?

 

[Sapient6]

Is there anything I can do besides making money in a safer way that will let me get rid of some of this debt?

Bounty Hunting is a bit safer than fighting in a conflict zone, without being nearly as safe as trading. You might give that a shot.

 

[toretorden]

Bounty Hunting is a bit safer than fighting in a conflict zone, without being nearly as safe as trading. You might give that a shot.

Thanks, but I'm not asking for tips on how to make money. Rather, I am wondering if there's something one can do to clear debt, like take a debt clearing mission or something else.

 

[49rTbird]

Thanks, but I'm not asking for tips on how to make money. Rather, I am wondering if there's something one can do to clear debt, like take a debt clearing mission or something else.

Ok, I am confused abit. How are you in debt? Do you mean your funds are in the minuses? If so I was not aware we could be in debt. Poor yes, in debt no!

 

[Richard Bentley]

Not really unless you clear save and start your game again from scratch.
Bounty hunting in a RES seems lucrative at the moment but a session of trading might be a steadier way of getting some finances back. Deliver and collect missions from the bulletin boards will pay more than standard trades too.
There is no quick fix solution I'm afraid.

 

[toretorden]

Ok, I am confused abit. How are you in debt? Do you mean your funds are in the minuses? If so I was not aware we could be in debt. Poor yes, in debt no!

Whenever your ship is destroyed, you basically pay for it. If you can't pay for it, you get a loan from a creditor. If you keep dying, the loan gets bigger. When you can't loan any more, you're bankrupt.

Not really unless you clear save and start your game again from scratch.
Bounty hunting in a RES seems lucrative at the moment but a session of trading might be a steadier way of getting some finances back. Deliver and collect missions from the bulletin boards will pay more than standard trades too.
There is no quick fix solution I'm afraid.

I was a little worried this might be the answer.

This debt mechanic is pretty awful. I mean, in a game, you need to create incentives for players to motivate them and keep them interested. Upgrading or getting new ships is a great incentive - players wanna make cash to make that happen. But having to earn money to pay off an ingame creditor, that's not a good incentive. It's just not a good motivator. Nobody likes being a debtor, in real life or in a game. Plus, I like fighting in high intensity zones, even if it comes with risk, but here they've created an incentive for me not to play the game in a way I like.

If you'd make some missions or something that made it so you could clear out that debt without having to make money for it the usual old way, you could actually add something fun to the game rather than just punishing the players. I thought something like it would be in place already because as it is now, it just seems like a poor thought out game design in an otherwise good game.

 

[Richard]

Unless things have changed radically since the Beta (I don't know, haven't been in debt for a long time), then your debt gets paid off automatically over time. 10% of whatever you earn through whatever means will be diverted to service your loan. As I recall, there is a maximum amount of debt you can incur though, so it's probably a good idea to clear it reasonably quickly, otherwise the next time you need to replace a ship you might not be able to. At which point it's back to the Sidewinder for you.

I think the loan is a 0% loan though, so it's not all bad.

To 49rTBird - you can go into debt if need be in order to replace a ship that you don't have enough insurance for.

 

[toretorden]

Unless things have changed radically since the Beta (I don't know, haven't been in debt for a long time), then your debt gets paid off automatically over time. 10% of whatever you earn through whatever means will be diverted to service your loan. As I recall, there is a maximum amount of debt you can incur though, so it's probably a good idea to clear it reasonably quickly, otherwise the next time you need to replace a ship you might not be able to. At which point it's back to the Sidewinder for you.

I think the loan is a 0% loan though, so it's not all bad.

To 49rTBird - you can go into debt if need be in order to replace a ship that you don't have enough insurance for.

So basically, I have a -10% income debuff? Oh man ..

People generally don't enjoy being debtors in real life, so why would anyone think they'd like it in a game? Seems poorly thought out.

 

[krysohmyz]

Paying off the debt isn't hard, actually. Even if you used all of the loan, you can pay in back in a few hours of bounty hunting in a Viper in RES and earn a few million for yourself.
Or a day in Sidey.

Also, there is no time limit to pay it off, so you don't need to stress. Only from now on be sure to have the rebuy price on you as you can't rely on the bank, until the debt's payed.

And poorly thought out? Really? This poorly thought out mechanic just saved your ship. Otherwise you'd be starting over from the scratch and your post here would presumably be much whiny-er

 

[toretorden]

Paying off the debt isn't hard, actually. Even if you used all of the loan, you can pay in back in a few hours of bounty hunting in a Viper in RES and earn a few million for yourself.
Or a day in Sidey.

Also, there is no time limit to pay it off, so you don't need to stress. Only from now on be sure to have the rebuy price on you as you can't rely on the bank, until the debt's payed.

And poorly thought out? Really? This poorly thought out mechanic just saved your ship. Otherwise you'd be starting over from the scratch and your post here would presumably be much whiny-er

This system makes players debtors in order to save their ships. This is a situation which is currently not fun, hence it is arguably poor design. Let's say there was a creative way to get rid of your debt - some aspect to the game that opened up to you as you came into that situation (let's say you could take some dirty job to pay off all your debt), then you could actually add something to the game instead of just penalizing players.

Death penalties are hugely important in games like this, so they have to be well designed from the ground up. You have to consider the consequences they create, feelings they evoke, the motivations and incentives they create, what unfortunate situations may arise from it and so on. In a worst case scenario, a penalty is just something which takes fun out of the game. A good death penalty adds more fun to the game. In this particular case, I don't think penalties for dying are good and the game could be better (more fun) if they were different. You can discredit this opinion by calling it a whine if you will, but as the game is still developed and bad game mechanics could hurt sales, I think of it as both valid and valuable feedback.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Think of it as motivation to get better at the game or to use your head better.

 

[Undecided]

So basically, I have a -10% income debuff? Oh man ..

People generally don't enjoy being debtors in real life, so why would anyone think they'd like it in a game? Seems poorly thought out.

People had been clamoring for months for an increase in the maximum loan you could take out to avoid losing your ship. If you are so averse to going into debt why did you go back to the conflict zone that had just gotten you killed? You gambled and lost and while certainly unfortunate, it was your decision to do so. If you want to make the money back, bounty hunting at a RES is much safer and more profitable. Just don't bite off more than you can chew this time.

 

[the100thmonkey]

While I am generally very sympathetic to the kinds of issues newcomers to the game face, I must admit that I'm struggling here.

The insurance saved you from having to start over, after making the same mistake twice in quick succession, and you're complaining about it? Seriously?

What would your reaction have been if your loan hadn't covered the excess?

You owe a maximum of 180kcr unless you've installed stupid weapons on your Viper and an advanced discovery scanner.

At 10%, that's less than 4 hours in a RES to pay off, and you'll make money for yourself as well, as was pointed out.

There are also dirty and dangerous missions you can take which have a high payout - the assassination missions. You'll have to do about 10 of them. They might also help you learn how to deal with the big ships in a conflict zone.

 

[Sapient6]

A small piece of advice: the debt you are experiencing is a safety net for new players. It gets harder. More expensive ships cost more to buy back than the maximum loan you can get. That means if you repeat this gamble with a bigger ship them the result will be going back to a sidewinder.

Now is the time to get used to this Rule: do not launch without enough credits to buy back your ship. Follow this rule now and you'll avoid further debt. Follow it later and you'll avoid a sidewinder restart.

This game will not hold your hand. Stop expecting it to.

 

[Fen Harel]

Is there anything I can do besides making money in a safer way that will let me get rid of some of this debt?

Not really. And I'm okay with that. I'm not trying to make light of your concerns, its no fun to lose a ship. But if you want to make more credits, then you need to do those things which generate credits. Try some trading in rares, that will get you back where you were in no time.

 

[CMDR Alex Occasus]

........{stuff}... This debt mechanic is pretty awful. I mean, in a game, you need to create incentives for players to motivate them and keep them interested. Upgrading or getting new ships is a great incentive - players wanna make cash to make that happen. But having to earn money to pay off an ingame creditor, that's not a good incentive. It's just not a good motivator. Nobody likes being a debtor, in real life or in a game.

This has to be the best example of entitlement I have ever seen or read in my life.

*guffaws* Hey! Guess what! There's a reason why it's called "Eliteangerous". Simple mistakes may cost you everything!

Now many folks would scoff at this simply because it's so easy to avoid. To be honest, I concur. But it doesn't take away from the fact that it does take a bit of work and common sense to work through what the game ~sim~ offers. It's clear what the insurance of what your ship is... make sure you have it. If you are brave, have 2, 3 maybe 4 times that value.

Work to earn that comfort.
Learn what it takes to appreciate that amount of effort.

The incentive is to not fail at disappointing yourself in what you took time to earn.

The incentive is to overcome and discover... maybe figure something out and feel the sweet gratification of personal accomplishment of doing it yourself.

 

[avow555]

Nothing particularly crippling about the debt in this game, perhaps a change of game style is what you require.

 

[toretorden]

This has to be the best example of entitlement I have ever seen or read in my life.

*guffaws* Hey! Guess what! There's a reason why it's called "Eliteangerous". Simple mistakes may cost you everything!

Now many folks would scoff at this simply because it's so easy to avoid. To be honest, I concur. But it doesn't take away from the fact that it does take a bit of work and common sense to work through what the game ~sim~ offers. It's clear what the insurance of what your ship is... make sure you have it. If you are brave, have 2, 3 maybe 4 times that value.

Work to earn that comfort.
Learn what it takes to appreciate that amount of effort.

The incentive is to not fail at disappointing yourself in what you took time to earn.

The incentive is to overcome and discover... maybe figure something out and feel the sweet gratification of personal accomplishment of doing it yourself.

I think your perspective is a little off. I still have my ship and all upgrades I ever bought for it and my funds are in the positive numbers. I'm not having a particularly hard time and I can tip-toe around this game like everyone else seems to think you should. The difference with me is simply I don't want to. I'd rather throw myself into it and take some risks without having to worry too much.

As I wrote, the mining and trading isn't all that fun and the current penalties are gonna make players tip-toe around the best gameplay aspect the game has to offer, which is combat. I just think it's a bad decision.

My suggestion is simply an alternative way to get rid of debt. Is that way too much to wish for?

Nothing particularly crippling about the debt in this game, perhaps a change of game style is what you require.

It's not my ability to play the game that the debt cripples.

 

[Kuroshio]

The problem is, risking your assets is what this game is about. It punishes wrong trade-offs, like, in your case, losing your ship and doing the same thing that cost you your ship again. The risk-reward balance was not in your favor, the game punishes you for making the same mistake twice.

"Taking risks without having to worry much" isn't taking risks. Risk is danger and opportunity, without danger, it's something else. No hurrying back to stations with a broken canopy, no "should I turn around after 10,000 LY or press on". While there are other trade-offs in ED (patience-income, for example), risk-reward is one of the core gameplay elements.

But if you don't want to risk your assets but still fight against the odds, simply take your free Sidewinder into battle.

 

[.Stu.]

For your own sanity don't do rares in a viper.

Kit out an addrt and giver our a fuel scoop. When you have the cash, do it in a cobra.