Newcomer / Intro The Crippling Debt

[RedWarden]

"You owe us big, see..."

It would be an interesting twist to see something where you need to "do a thing" for "a guy" who "knows people." Very similar to the assassinate missions, but from your creditor. Smuggle, destroy, pick up, etc., but with the added benefit of paying the organization.

I suppose I progressed in the game as intended: I considered the Sidewinder disposable. Once I realized I could get a new ship even with zero credits...well my experiments began! I went through a few dozen of those ships!
I lived in fear of losing my first ship, until I had the buy-back credits. The first couple of days would have been less tedious and more relaxed had I known I could have another ship for a small fee.

Anyway, great idea for the future, but for me the only thing that may be necessary is explaining the debt system more clearly from the start. If I missed the explanation, I guess I was too anxious to fly around.

CMDR "Red" Warden

 

[toretorden]

The problem is, risking your assets is what this game is about. It punishes wrong trade-offs, like, in your case, losing your ship and doing the same thing that cost you your ship again. The risk-reward balance was not in your favor, the game punishes you for making the same mistake twice.

"Taking risks without having to worry much" isn't taking risks. Risk is danger and opportunity, without danger, it's something else. No hurrying back to stations with a broken canopy, no "should I turn around after 10,000 LY or press on". While there are other trade-offs in ED (patience-income, for example), risk-reward is one of the core gameplay elements.

But if you don't want to risk your assets but still fight against the odds, simply take your free Sidewinder into battle.

I would argue that allowing alternative ways to pay off debt, such as committing a crime in a different system (smuggling something, killing someone) or retrieving something from a lost ship out there somewhere .. the game system and the penalties would still work just the same. Dying would still cost you. You'd just add an extra element to the game, turning something which at present seems a little tedious into something that seems a little more interesting.

 

[Gelb]

As Cmdr SAPIENT6 says The Loan is there for new player who try to run before they can walk, like going up against a Python in a basic set up sidey,you have to balance what you want to do in the game with what you can afford so its mining ,trading, exploring, till you have the credits to cover multiple ship losses and a fully tooled up ship before you try the more risky options of bounty hunting assassinations and conflict zones ect.

 

[Ancipital]

So basically, I have a -10% income debuff? Oh man ..

People generally don't enjoy being debtors in real life, so why would anyone think they'd like it in a game? Seems poorly thought out.

Au contraire, I fear the only thing that was "poorly thought out" was your approach to risk and reward. You gambled it all, you lost it all, c'est la vie. Only gamble what you're prepared to lose. This is a slightly complicated game- you'll find some great guides (Yokai and Doubtoutloud spring to mind) on these very forums to get you started.

Rather than raging, or indeed being downcast, chalk this first commander up to experience- it's what most people do. Lern2play a bit, and you simply won't get yourself into this situation. You aren't the first and you won't be the last to rush into it like it's COD or something, and end up stony broke- there's no shame in it. However, it's a bit of a nerdy game that runs at a different pace- you can't just zerg and respawn without consequence.

Elite Dangerous is a spiritual successor to Elite- the quintessential space trading game. Those of us who played it to death in the 8-bit era, then the 16-bit era, and possibly even after that, as "OOlite" know what to expect, so we're on our guard. Maybe a newer generation of players who rush into things without much RTFM won't. Consider the harsh lesson of your first disastrous commander an object lesson in how much the vast, cold universe cares about you. The good news is that there is a ton of good info and helpful people here ready to smooth the (admittedly steep) learning curve, if you decide that you want to learn how the game works.

If you don't, and want something consequence-free which provides more obvious immediate gratification, there are many fine choices available, too. Good luck!

 

[noodle]

I think your perspective is a little off. I still have my ship and all upgrades I ever bought for it and my funds are in the positive numbers. I'm not having a particularly hard time and I can tip-toe around this game like everyone else seems to think you should. The difference with me is simply I don't want to. I'd rather throw myself into it and take some risks without having to worry too much.

Well, y'know.... tough. "I don't want to" isn't an argument, it's a statement of preference.

As I wrote, the mining and trading isn't all that fun and the current penalties are gonna make players tip-toe around the best gameplay aspect the game has to offer, which is combat. I just think it's a bad decision.

Alternatively, it might teach players to exercise some sensible caution in combat, because this isn't an arcade game.

My suggestion is simply an alternative way to get rid of debt. Is that way too much to wish for?

Nope. That's not unreasonable - so long as it's not too easy.

 

[toretorden]

Ancipital, I cut my teeth on the earlier Frontier games like so many others here. That's why I picked up Elite Dangerous to begin with. That doesn't mean I'm automatically gonna think the debt mechanic is good as it is. I didn't go into the game with a "COD mentality" either.

To counter someone's suggestion to add or change a feature of a game with "Learn2Play" is old and cheap. I know the debt mechanic, I know the risk, and yes - when I tire of the game, I will move on to the next one. None of this means the debt mechanic can't be improved on.

Nope. That's not unreasonable - so long as it's not too easy.

I imagine it would cost time, effort and possibly the wrong kind of reputation.

edit :

It would be an interesting twist to see something where you need to "do a thing" for "a guy" who "knows people." Very similar to the assassinate missions, but from your creditor. Smuggle, destroy, pick up, etc., but with the added benefit of paying the organization.

I suppose I progressed in the game as intended: I considered the Sidewinder disposable. Once I realized I could get a new ship even with zero credits...well my experiments began! I went through a few dozen of those ships!
I lived in fear of losing my first ship, until I had the buy-back credits. The first couple of days would have been less tedious and more relaxed had I known I could have another ship for a small fee.

Anyway, great idea for the future, but for me the only thing that may be necessary is explaining the debt system more clearly from the start. If I missed the explanation, I guess I was too anxious to fly around.

CMDR "Red" Warden

Awesome Where the thumbs up button?

 

[Ancipital]

Ancipital, I cut my teeth on the earlier Frontier games like so many others here.

Well, goodness, then I have zero sympathy for you

I am at a loss as to what you expected to find. It's strange to complain that this Elite game is like an Elite game. I suspect mendacity for your own odd purposes. If not, and it's some odd kind of brainfart, then maybe you'd be happier if you were to "move on to the next one".

 

[toretorden]

Well, goodness, then I have zero sympathy for you, or your whine thread. There would have been an excuse if you were a naive COD tween. I suspect you're just manufacturing drama and being less than honest with people. I back away sadly, feeling trolled.

Not trying to troll you, nor am I trying to get anyone's sympathy .. really, I don't need it. I'm not saying dying should be penalty free. I'm just trying to discuss the debt mechanic, but it seems any criticism of the current game mechanics is gonna make people get their panties in a bunch.

How about you try and forget your anger that someone would feel entitled to criticize an aspect of the game and think about if or how the debt-system could actually be improved?

 

[DWorth]

Currently, I balance the risk of what I'm doing against how much cash I have left. I'll do riskier things (bounty hunting, PvP and so on) if I have enough cash in the bank to cover the loss of my ship several times (Like lives from the old days of shoot-em-ups). When that drops to twice the value of my ship I revert to safer pursuits (trading, exploring for example).

 

[toretorden]

Currently, I balance the risk of what I'm doing against how much cash I have left. I'll do riskier things (bounty hunting, PvP and so on) if I have enough cash in the bank to cover the loss of my ship several times (Like lives from the old days of shoot-em-ups). When that drops to twice the value of my ship I revert to safer pursuits (trading, exploring for example).

Yes, that sounds like smart playing. So you know how to avoid debt. But let's say you have some unforeseen accident happen to you and you end up with debt of say 500 000 creds. Judging by the replies of this thread, you'd simply pay back 10% of all your earnings (next 5 mills) until the loan was cleared. How would you feel if there was an alternative way of paying back the 500 000, such as doing some unique type of missions or something for your creditor? Would that be good or bad? Or maybe you have a different suggestion?

 

[toretorden]

Interestingly, after digging around a bit, I came across this old thread about Death Penalties from 2013 : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5323

It seems something like my suggestion of missions to pay off debt was planned to be (or even is?) included in the game.

Repayment Missions

• Repayment missions are offered by some creditors and:
  • Are only available when the creditor’s faction relationship is above a set threshold
  • Are always timed
  • Reduce the creditor’s faction relationship if failed (potentially triggering additional adversarial events)
  • Can involve adversarial activity against opposing factions
  • Can be “bought out” by paying a lump sum equal to the debt, though some faction loss will still occur

Have anyone got more information about or experience with this mechanic?

 

[DWorth]

Yeah, I suppose it would be nice if someone contacted you with something like 'Hey, so you're in debt to my legitimate business associate Big Tony. How's about you whack these mooks for us and we'll fuggetaboutit?'

 

[Sapient6]

How would you feel if there was an alternative way of paying back the 500 000, such as doing some unique type of missions or something for your creditor? Would that be good or bad? Or maybe you have a different suggestion?

Two thoughts on the Mission To Pay Off Debt:

1. A mission that pays out 500,000 worth of debt should be around the same difficulty (and RISK!) as a mission that earns you 500,000 credits straight up. Those credits shouldn't be any easier to earn than any other credits.

2. I'm not sure how worthwhile an addition like this would be. It's a feature that would target newer players and have no effect on players that have been around longer (higher end ships cost far more to get back than the maximum loan amount).

The main problem I see with adding something like this will come from #2: by making newer players feel more comfortable with going into debt you set them up for a shock when they go and get themselves blown up flying something expensive without the credits to buy back. As much as you seem to have taken the negative responses to your post a little hard, how would you be feeling now if instead of your post being "crippling debt" it was "I'm back in a sidewinder with only 1000 credits"? The typical responses over people dealing with being sent back to square one are pretty harsh (harsher than they should be, I think).

Who knows, maybe they'll add missions to pay off debt and then expand the loan amount so that everyone can enjoy getting mired in debt.

I think the mission route sounds overly complex, though, and I'm not sure that coming up for more reasons for players to go visit another 100 USSs is Good Gameplay.

How about a "mission" that just lets you pay a great big lump of credits you have on hand towards your debt? That would be sensible while also making you really Feel that debt.

 

[toretorden]

I appreciate the reply, Sapient6

1. A mission that pays out 500,000 worth of debt should be around the same difficulty (and RISK!) as a mission that earns you 500,000 credits straight up. Those credits shouldn't be any easier to earn than any other credits.

I disagree with this point. I think it should be comparatively well paid for risk, but the catch should be worse effects on reputation and for example that none of the reward turns to pocket money. Perhaps the acts required may be particularly heinous and the reward will be less tangible as it doesn't turn into spending money. BUT they clear off debt quicker than most "normal" ways of earning cash.

One mission for 500k is a bit much perhaps, so in that case, I definitely imagine jobs of various sizes that each remove a piece of the debt.

It would be a lot to add, but it could be fun if the player got forced into doing such quests. Lets say the creditor faction hounds the player with the message the boss wants the job done, or else ...

2. I'm not sure how worthwhile an addition like this would be. It's a feature that would target newer players and have no effect on players that have been around longer (higher end ships cost far more to get back than the maximum loan amount).

This is true and a valid point, although I like your later suggestion.

The main problem I see with adding something like this will come from #2: by making newer players feel more comfortable with going into debt you set them up for a shock when they go and get themselves blown up flying something expensive without the credits to buy back. As much as you seem to have taken the negative responses to your post a little hard, how would you be feeling now if instead of your post being "crippling debt" it was "I'm back in a sidewinder with only 1000 credits"? The typical responses over people dealing with being sent back to square one are pretty harsh (harsher than they should be, I think).

Who knows, maybe they'll add missions to pay off debt and then expand the loan amount so that everyone can enjoy getting mired in debt.

I like this last paragraph. If the debt system actually added to the game, it might make sense to let more people get mired in debt and forced to do various tasks. It still hurts because anyone who's in debt has already been taken to 0 credits and beyond, so personally I don't see it as "too soft".

Possibly, the maximum loan you can take should scale with the worth of the stuff you own, more or less like it does in real life.

I think the mission route sounds overly complex, though, and I'm not sure that coming up for more reasons for players to go visit another 100 USSs is Good Gameplay.

How about a "mission" that just lets you pay a great big lump of credits you have on hand towards your debt? That would be sensible while also making you really Feel that debt.

Yeah, some way of paying off more than the 10% fee on every bit of income would be fun. Perhaps players could arrange meetings with their creditor or get "shaken down" and then pay up more.

This is turning into a lot of suggestions, but either way it's fun to imagine

 

[Sapient6]

I disagree with this point. I think it should be comparatively well paid for risk, but the catch should be worse effects on reputation and for example that none of the reward turns to pocket money.

This would make a lot more sense if rep was worth much. Right now the benefits of rep are pretty sparse. The only way you could make the rep hit really matter is if the rep hit was against major factions, and was significant enough to give players a healthy nudge towards hostile with each mission.

And Hostile with a major faction is a much deeper hole than a few million credits worth of debt.

Maybe once the Faction aspect of the game has grown into something meaningful and compelling, trading debt for rep would make more sense.

 

[Ian Skippy]

So basically, I have a -10% income debuff? Oh man ..

People generally don't enjoy being debtors in real life, so why would anyone think they'd like it in a game? Seems poorly thought out.

Because people dont take responsibility. You should have been 'game over, back to sidewinder', the whole loan-business is for those who dont want the real consequences. Dont fly without insurance, dont bite more than you can chew.

Look at it like this: if you continually decide to fly uninsured into high-risk and crash your ship, what should the consequence be? A free loan, without any terms other than a basic 10% cut from your income, seems a bizarrely good deal rather than something to complain about.

Remember: 'play any way you want' doesnt mean nothing has any consequences...

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Interestingly, after digging around a bit, I came across this old thread about Death Penalties from 2013 : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5323

It seems something like my suggestion of missions to pay off debt was planned to be (or even is?) included in the game.



Have anyone got more information about or experience with this mechanic?

It is pure fantasy at this point. A lot has been considered that is not (yet) in game.

 

[who?]

A "loan-shark" type mission could be interesting, but IMO it's not the direction that Frontier/Elite are going in. I don't think Elite is meant to be a "Kill. Die. Repeat" type game where dying is frequent and has no consequences. Dying is meant to cost you, so you really want to avoid it, and play accordingly.

Giving someone an easy, or difficult-but-interesting way out of debt is kind of missing the point. You're meant to want to avoid being blown up, it's not meant to be its own play style!

As an aside - I didn't realise you could get loans. The only times I died (5 times in the first couple of days playing, haven't died since) I just had the 95% insurance option and had the money to pay. I assume it only ever appears if you die but don't have the funds to replace your existing ship & fittings?

 

[Sapient6]

I assume it only ever appears if you die but don't have the funds to replace your existing ship & fittings?

Yes, and the amount is capped at 600,000 credits, I believe, which was increased from 200,000 in 1.2.

If 600,000 + the cash you have on hand is not enough to buy back your ship then it's back to a sidewinder. Not sure exactly how that works, I've always had the cash on hand too, but I've read posts that suggested they had cash taken away in the process, leaving them at 1000 credits and a sidewinder. Harsh bit of business there.

 

[toretorden]

Because people dont take responsibility. You should have been 'game over, back to sidewinder', the whole loan-business is for those who dont want the real consequences. Dont fly without insurance, dont bite more than you can chew.

Look at it like this: if you continually decide to fly uninsured into high-risk and crash your ship, what should the consequence be? A free loan, without any terms other than a basic 10% cut from your income, seems a bizarrely good deal rather than something to complain about.

Remember: 'play any way you want' doesnt mean nothing has any consequences...

I'm sorry if this offends you, but this is so 1-2 pages ago. I'm not really interested in anyone's lessons on morale, responsibility or their gameplay tips. I am a responsible person (really, I am!) and if I want your tips on how to play the game, I'll ask for it. Really. If I was aware of the crapstorm of useless, boring, repetitious posts being made about this, I would've chosen my words more carefully. What I want is a constructive thread, not "lessons" from people who basically have no idea about me, my motivations, what I know, how I feel or how I play Elite. I'm not a raging newbie.

It is pure fantasy at this point. A lot has been considered that is not (yet) in game.

Thanks, this is constructive (not sarcasm, I genuinely wasn't sure if it might have made the game).

edit :

Giving someone an easy, or difficult-but-interesting way out of debt is kind of missing the point. You're meant to want to avoid being blown up, it's not meant to be its own play style!

Well, I'm sure losing all your monays and coming into debt would still suck so I think the incentive to avoid getting blown up is still basically there.

I don't see it as being about removing responsibility or punishment from the game.

As a slight side-note; to illustrate a death system which I found interesting in a different game, I can refer to Shadow of Mordor which I recently finished. It's a Lord of the Rings game and you fight orcs in it. Most orcs are just orcs, but some are captains or even warchiefs with captains serving under them. If you get killed by a normal orc, that orc will get promoted to captain. He'll rise in levels and become more badass. The next time you meet him, he'll throw an insult your way, probably about how he kicked your ass earlier. None of these things take away the penalty for dying or any of the responsibility. Possibly it adds a bit of penalty by rewarding your killer .. But what it really does is create some really interesting consequences for dying, consequences that are gonna impact your actions later in the game.

Similarly, there's every opportunity in Elite to add some fun to the game through the current loan/debt situation without it really messing up incentives or penalties too much. The game needs more content (imo) and this just seems like a good place to add some.

 

[Universal Evil]

To OP(Toretorden)

I'm not quite sure why you want "a new kind of mission" to pay you debts(other than making it easier/faster than it's today), I mean as the game is now when you die(and was stupid enough to fly without having enough for insurance) you have 2 choises
A) take a loan(whitch you pay back over time while doing missions) or
B) Refuse the loan and get a brand new sidey instead of what you had(remember if you choose option B and have another ship stored somewhere it will still be there for you to go fetch in your new Sidey)

So why would you want yet another kind of mission just to pay of debt?, isn't that just something you can already do with the missions we already have...?

I must admit I've never tried out the loan thing myself, but it seems unfair to me if people who have debts should have access to higher payloads-missions than the rest of us, so if the game should have new High risk, high payloads mission I would like the oppotunity to do them(even though I'd never have to loan anything) just like those people who doesn't care about having enough credits to pay for their ships/upgrades insurence...

So all in all I still see no good argument for changing the mechanics of the Loan option, The only thing I've seen in this thread whitch I could support of change is an option to payback a loan earlier than the 10% of you income to get rid of it sooner rather than later..

But it's just my opinion....