The Death Penalty: would Elite Dangerous be better off without it?

[Raduk]

Open play only, 84 million in claims costs on 28 insurance claims. Double that to include lost cargo. I wear it like a badge of honor. It's what makes the game exciting and fun. It's also fun to be in the position to wear you have so much money death in small ships doesn't matter, it's a great feeling of accomplishment. I think permadeath in a video game is a bad idea, it would make most people play far too conservatively. It's fine the way it is right now.

 

[DaHunn]

nope elite needs iron man mode. real loss and real death. if you.re dead start over...... let's see how people will play it that way not everybody's cup of tea... i know... but the risk reward is far more fulfilling. As it is now, it is just elite... iron man mode would put the dangerous in elite dangerous, just my opinion...

 

[Robert Maynard]

nope elite needs iron man mode. real loss and real death. if you.re dead start over...... let's see how people will play it that way not everybody's cup of tea... i know... but the risk reward is far more fulfilling. As it is now, it is just elite... iron man mode would put the dangerous in elite dangerous, just my opinion...

You can play that way already if you wish - I know of at least one player who wipes their commander every time they see the insurance screen....

 

[Raduk]

nope elite needs iron man mode. real loss and real death. if you.re dead start over...... let's see how people will play it that way not everybody's cup of tea... i know... but the risk reward is far more fulfilling. As it is now, it is just elite... iron man mode would put the dangerous in elite dangerous, just my opinion...

This mode already exists. Anyone who is waiting for a choice on the menu bar is really just making excuses.

 

[Cmdr Irenicus]

Dying in Elite Dangerous can be punishing. Insurance costs for the larger ships can be tens of millions,

Then don't die. But then you don't actually die anyway. Insurance isn't an issue.

I think this isn't the game you are looking for. You are looking for Elite: Not Very Dangerous at all. Wrong game mate.
I've put in over 200hrs and have only "died" once. Maybe learn to be more careful eh? And if I die again, I have no issue paying insurance, which is nothing compared to the actual cost of my ship + outfitting

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nope elite needs iron man mode. real loss and real death. if you.re dead start over...... let's see how people will play it that way not everybody's cup of tea... i know... but the risk reward is far more fulfilling. As it is now, it is just elite... iron man mode would put the dangerous in elite dangerous, just my opinion...

Nope it sure doesn't.

If you want to punish yourself then "clear save" is your Iron Man mode. The rest of us aren't into wasting our time for nothing at all.

 

[Krait_79]

Dying in Elite Dangerous can be punishing. Insurance costs for the larger ships can be tens of millions, explorers can lose months of gameplay due to one interdiction or collision, traders can lose both their ship and their cargo due to death, bounty hunters can lose hours of bounties due to one bad decision. Because of this it's only natural that players attempt to minimize the risks in order to not lose everything, because building up to that Anaconda can take months of real world time. Exploring out to the far reaches of the galaxy isn't quick nor simple to do. This tension, this risk, is part of what has always made Elite a fantastic game, much like how similar risks make rogue-likes so engrossing to many people.

But this version of Elite is also in an online and persistent universe. There are no save game files, there are no takebacks. And yet even though we have one online galaxy the game is divided into separate worlds: those who play together, and those who play alone, and these two worlds do not have equal risks versus rewards.

I see lots of posts daily complaining of player greifing, lack of people around in game, open versus solo/private, Power Play not being worthwhile, etc. Most of these issues, when boiled down to their root causes, are simply due to the death penalty. High risk versus low reward. It's what chases explorers and traders into solo mode, it's what prevents people from pledging to a faction power, it's what keeps the combat people grinding merits in solo as opposed to open. So, what if death wasn't such a big deal?

Just imagine it for a second. No death penalty other than being kicked back to the last station you were docked in and losing your cargo. No insurance cost, no risk of getting kicked out of your clipper and back into a sidewinder, no weeks of exploration taken away by a wing of players, no loss of bounties for attempting to bite off more than you can chew at that nav beacon. What would an Elite like that be like? Would it be a better game or would it break the game completely?

Why do we play ED? For most of us, I'd wager at least 90%, we play to have fun and enjoy ourselves. With that in mind, would the game be more fun or less fun with the only penalty for death being loss of cargo and a quick trip back to where you came from?

Think about it that kind of game. Traders who don't give up playing due to pirates. Explorers who risk dogfighting with hunters stalking community goal stations. Power Play hot spots full of PvP. Miners arming themselves and brazenly flying about in open mode. With an online galaxy full of people flying around it now due to the risks being more equal to the rewards, would we even need a solo mode?


Would that kind of Elite Dangerous, one with very little penalty for dying, be a better and more fun game, or not?

The ironic thing would be you would see much more griefing if people had nothing to lose. If i knew i risked nothing i would attack other players left right and centre, then after 5 minutes would get bored and put the game down.

I love that Elite comes with a real sense of danger in that you can lose everything. The game shouldn't hold your hand just because players can't manage risk properly.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This mode already exists. Anyone who is waiting for a choice on the menu bar is really just making excuses.

kind of but not really.

Even in Iron Man players were meant to have the ability to manually eject. Indeed some suggestions included being able to rip out the escape pod that non ironmanners have forcibly installed to give more space for cargo or possibly more power for other modules

 

[Robert Maynard]

The ironic thing would be you would see much more griefing if people had nothing to lose. If i knew i risked nothing i would attack other players left right and centre, then after 5 minutes would get bored and put the game down.

I love that Elite comes with a real sense of danger in that you can lose everything. The game shouldn't hold your hand just because players can't manage risk properly.

If the attacking player still had to pay any repairs / insurance excess but the player who did not initiate combat was to be fully reimbursed, it might not encourage such behaviour.

 

[CYB34]

Do you want everyone to fly Sidewinders?
Because that's how you make everyone fly Sidewinders.

 

[Ydiss]

You can play that way already if you wish - I know of at least one player who wipes their commander every time they see the insurance screen....

It's not the same as having an authored mode though. I'm no fan of iron man or hardcore modes but I'm aware that one major reason they're popular is because everyone in the mode has the same risk and, as such it impacts how everyone acts.

Self-imposed permanent death isn't the same at all.

To the op, it's very important that persistent games like this have a meaningful death penalty. And Ed has one that scales very well.

I imagine cqc will have no death penalty (it would be silly if it did). That's where players will be able to enjoy pvp without worrying about loss.

 

[Zplintz]

Do these self-imposed Ironman Mode/permadeath players also wipe their commander if they come up against and lise against a player that is cheating or a bug?

I suspect this is why we haven't seen Ironman mode yet.


Taking away any kind of penalty removes excitement and makes for couldn't care less flying.

I'm not interested in a no penalties at all game.

 

[Rottcodd]

Death must mean something. Part of the charm is having risks, it can be costly to die, sure. But not so much that players avoid pvp entirely.
If you think dying in Elite is expensive the play Eve online.

I played Eve occasionaly on or off for two years and the death penalty there made me stay out of null-sec space. Thus I missed a big part of the game. A game like WoW then death is just an annoyance that cost very little time to recover from. Not much danger there.

Every now and then there are posts from players that says that they are bored, well if they are so bored then it is about time that they start taking risks instead of hugging solo play. Maybe we will should do the opposite to "cure" these bored players, make death penalty even more harsh and remove solo play entirely.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

--- Deleted ---

 

[RosaMaus]

Personally, I think the insurance and risk thing is mostly fine. The only thing I'd add would be to make it a bit more realistic, so rather then being respawned in the last place you docked with a complete replacement, (even if it's a tiny outpost with no shipyard), you get taken to the nearest base to where you died, and given a voucher for your new ship, a loaner Sidey, then you have to make your way to the nearest port, (you might be given a list of options), that normally sells that ship to collect it.

 

[JoeShmo]

You can play that way already if you wish - I know of at least one player who wipes their commander every time they see the insurance screen....

This mode already exists. Anyone who is waiting for a choice on the menu bar is really just making excuses.

And yet, there are a lot of folks who find it "absurd" to remove or lessen the penalty of "death" that we already have..citing it "invalidates the point of the game". One could easily "fix" this invalidation by personally adding a penalty to each time you die, like mentioned in the quotes.

Here in-lies the fallacy behind the whole thing; it's not good enough to be penalized....it HAS to be formal, official, and a giant menu button that serves only to do exactly what you could do yourself.

There's no need or reason to "force" penalties on players for the sake of satiating how other players want to enjoy the game; they can moderate themselves perfectly fine.

They choose not to. They don't really want to penalize themselves "needlessly" , they only want to follow the bare minimum the game offers...and use it as a flag to wave in front of others with a sealed wax stamp "I survived Elite Dangerous penalties".

 

[Ian Skippy]

Would that kind of Elite Dangerous, one with very little penalty for dying, be a better and more fun game, or not?

No.
45678

 

[Mengy]

So while I agree that losing exploration data on death is a bit harsh, if you removed that then there would be no reason for explorers to make the return trip... They could just fly into a Sun when they think they have explored enough, spawn back in the last station they were in, and sell the data, which even with rebuy costs some will still take it over days and days of flying back to a station. Not saying many would, explorers seem to be the most honest crowd in this game, but some would use this exploit.

That's easily fixed, only preserve exploration data on death when killed by another player. I agree you can't have a suicide exploit that allows you to bring huge amounts of data across the galaxy in an instant.

I was thinking about this over the weekend. Many MMOs that have PvP remove or reduce the penalty if you are killed by a player, but leave the full penalty for PvE deaths. I have only been playing in solo so far, and it's hard for me to justify going into open when I'm going to have to pay 2-3M a pop every time a player kills me.

This is what I was trying to fix with my OP, the imbalance in this game that drives so many players into solo mode, myself included. I may have proposed too extreme of a solution, but the death imbalance does need to be addressed if we are ever going to tempt players back into open galaxy mode.

Personally, I think the game rather suffers from the lack of the death penalty.


How do I mean that?


Gankers/Psycho-Players can still run around even in supposedly High Security System, get their filling (destroy hundreds, sometimes thousands of hours of time invested by others) and walk away with an easy-to-evade Bounty on their head.
To add icing to the cake, the jurisdiction actually forgets that after 7 days - so it can be paid right off at double the amount.


Double x a litte = still a little


They get all their fun. Sounds good so far, doesn't it? Players having fun, not a bad thing.


Where's the problem?
The other side. The victims.


The game punishes them for daring not to be in a fully kitted combat ship, filled to the gills with Cell Banks.
But guess what - if you're a Trader, that's what you won't be doing. You're headed into a Trade hub filled with Cargo - not headed into a High Intensity Conflict zone.


Game doesn't care and gives the victim the Insurance bill.
1 Million Cr? 5 Million Cr? 10 Million Cr? 3 months of hard Exploration work - invaluable and the work-equivalent of several hundred Million Credits? No problem, all easily possible.


----------------


So where is it? The death penalty or harsh consequences for the Killer?
It doesn't exist. Nowhere.


Does it matter in terms of consequences if the killed Player was Allied to that very System controlling Faction? No.
Does it matter in terms of consequences if the killed Player carried a high Rank with any Government? No.
Does it matter in terms of consequences if the killed Player was on a high-profile Mission for the System controlling Faction or Government? No.


-------------------------
I think even 500000 years ago, humanity wasn't so insanely primitive that you could go along and Mass-Murder citizens or members of a tribe - run off - and then return a week later and simply pay off your hideous crimes. And repeat it if you wanted.


Doesn't get more Bizarre...


So until ELITE : Toxic isn't transformed back into an ELITE : Dangerous... Frontier will keep losing Players, keep pushing Players away from Open Play and keep losing money. Until one day they can close shop on the Game.


==================


How to solve it? Easy :
- put everthing in its place (the Game has all it needs already to make that happen)
- give Systems actual System Security and allow victims to retaliate (depending on their Reputation/Rank and severity of the loss)
--> effectively implement a proper balance of Killer vs. innocent victim


Ideas for Balancing have been presented since over a year, plentiful and many of them downright brilliant.
All wasted on total lack of Common Sense and complete ignorance of the consequences for this Game's commercial fate. And they're already paying the price, still without realizing what happened.
Can't make that up.


So IMHO : the Galaxy we have is huge. Place for everybody - even fugitives perma-hostile to everybody but Unfettered Factions/Pirate-Systems. Even after the Pilots Federation has stripped them of all ranks and voids all their Insurance.
Blast your own Trail. If becoming a notorious most-wanted Fugitive is that Trail... by all means they should be able to do it and enjoy. IF they can stomach the drastic consequences and severe price tag that comes along with it...


But until Frontier realizes all that - Solo Mode will be the mode of choice for many. At least those few that are still around...

Very well said, and you address exactly the problem I'd love to see solved: the victims pay a much larger death penalty in ED than the aggressors. It's not even close to balanced. And that's why solo mode is so much more attractive than open mode.


Perhaps my thread should have been "balance the death penalty" rather than "remove the death penalty"....

 

[Hey Mickey]

Quite right Falcon.
IMO, the problem with the death penalty is that it only really applies to the victim. There is no danger for the attacker.
I can sit in a vulture outside Lave and kill any transporters. I risk a 5000 CR bounty, that I lose after 7 days. I don't risk my life because there is no way in hell that a transport will beat me. I can pick the fights and only pick the ones I'm 100% guaranteed to win. Even in the extreme event that I die (maybe I fall asleep and ram into a Type-9 at boost-power), my insurance is about 500K.

Meanwhile, the transporter-pilot is almost certain to die and loses 5% of his ship cost and all his cargo - which will be several million CR for an average Type 7.
Why the hell would that Type-7 pilot play in OPEN mode? What possible incentive could he have, other than a death wish?
It's just not fun to be pulled into a fight that you have no chance of winning. There's no thrill of the chase, just nearly-inevitable death. The only thing you can do is 4 pips to shield, hit boost and hope the pirate is incompetent while you wait for the FSD cooldown. That's not a fun challenge featuring risk and reward, like some players seem to think it is.

I wouldn't want to eliminate the death penalty (though I'd probably reduce it a bit, and/or offer a 'clean pilot discount'), but something has to be done to stop the "chilling effect" of no-consequences griefing. If pirates had a real fear of being hunted down, it would make a lot of difference. Killing a clean player should have every cop and vigilante in 100 LY gunning for you. It shouldn't be a 5000 CR bounty that no-one notices unless your ship gets scanned.

I'm flying with an bounty of 5000 at the moment (from killing an NPC). It means absolutely nothing. I even went back and docked at the station that issued the bounty.

 

[pprovart]

S**t Happens, then you Die..