The Difference Between PvP and "Griefing"

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I have seen those posts before. The difference between those ideas and the current ideology is the open ended aspect that their could be consequences for the play style. Since launch there havent been any consequences. At least no appreciable consequences. T

The Sidewinder Suicide an PF bounty loop hole is just now being closed after 3 years. However that is supposed to be the bare minimum punishment for being a criminal in the game. If you ask me its awfully generous at that.

Now when the full C&P and Karma system is in place and people have to finally take the same risks that traders and newbies have been taking since launch in open, then some of the things I listed can fall off. For example the station ramming, mining, and killing of well outclassed or new pilots will still stay. Killing of tradeships, CG opposing, and whatnot can be dropped off the list.

That is because committing Capital Crimes in the future of the game will have to mean something. If they take the powder puff approach and not actually provide a capital punishment for a capital crime, then they may as well not do it all and turn PVP off all together. I imagine that wont be the case however as the potential for real PVP is great. The current open game contains Zero player interaction combat PVP of merit. The closest thing to Combat or violent PVP in Open right now is Power Play. Even that is debatable at times. Mostly because Power Play isnt a fully realize aspect of the game.

So in the future of the game you can be as dirty as you want to be, but just know that it will come at an extremely harsh and unavoidable cost. Just like the pilots who fly CG Cargo missions in Open. Just like the explorers coming back from beagle point with no weapons and no cargo who are blown up for the lulz. If you cant accept that there must and will be harsh consequences, then you really do not want PVP. You want seal clubbing. Open "PVP" is a complete and utter joke. Anyone who participates in anything other than arranged dueling and Power Play in open are a complete joke. I have as of yet to been interdicted by a competent let alone real pirate in this game. Most roll up in an FDL and tell you to empty your hold. They dont have hatchbreaks let alone a single slot of cargo space. They are clown shoes.

The best thing you can do is try and shape it into something fair, fun, and balanced. It would be a better use of your time than defending the current state of EDs supposed PVP. Eve is over a decade old and their PVP destroys EDs in every aspect. Too bad the rest of Eve didnt suck.

Yeah its being closed for PVPers. But PVErs still get away with it. Go figure

Everything else, I agree with. And even the bad guys want it. They want the punishments. But they should also be rewarded for being a bad guy too. Bad rep means more reward from an anarchy system or whatever. Being a good guy hunting down the bad guy, reward them too. And the bad guy gets a nasty rebuy.

 

[stripealipe]

Thing is, shooting UA-bombers makes little difference, even in open. Shooting traders makes little difference, even in open. Shooting anyone makes little difference, even UA-bombers in open at a CG.

While shooting someone is surely satisfying, the game mechanics behind all your examples -- the BGS -- are the only mechanics that actually count.

It's more efficient to just play the BGS than it is to attempt to engage players. PvP combat in the game is a white elephant. As someone pointed out to you in another thread, the only real "gud" in this game is gud at the BGS. Everything else is window dressing.

And there are counters to every BGS action.

Playing the BGS got rather boring a rather long time ago though eh? Especially once it was picked apart and we all realised how shallow the whole thing was implemented..

 

[Zambrick]

None of those are griefing!!! NONE!

All valid game mechanics, you just get rekt so you call them "gwiefers". None of those activities resemble griefing in any way.

AS LONG AS THOSE ARE WITHIN THE GAME RULES YOU ARE NOT BEING GRIEFED!

I dont need a reason to kill you, I like killing cmdrs just for my own fun because this game allows me to shoot other players. This is not griefing, its un-consensual PVP forced on you, and you agreed to it by clicking open. Again, NOT GRIEFING!

If someone actually doing any griefing via comms (swearing, talking biowaste, racial, homophobic slurs etc) or repeatedly killing the same player (although this is grey area, define repeatedly...) they should be punished by FDEV since this is what constitutes griefing. Not your personal feelings, they are not important. The game rules are the only deciding factor, and OPEN mode is free for all, you can be a legit, legal psychopathic murderhobo and its PERFECTLY FINE withing the game rules.

All of them are griefing in the current game. You cant handle the fact that your playstyle is childish and provides no worth to the game. If you partake in those things on a regular basis, then you have nothing of interest to say to me. You are the very reason why they have to build a punishment system before they actually create a way to be successful at crime. You are the reason why most of season 2 was combat based.

Since you are less than nothing in the consideration of this thread, how about you go back and shoot kiddies in the starting area or blow up T-6s for the lolz. As of 2.4 that will be the beginning of the end for your play style. May as well stack the bodies high, because it wont last.

 

[thirstyfish]

I think you are confused, actual griefing can be any or all of those. Actual griefing is not in game murder. Maybe this is why my other post flew over your head, you were mostly correct in what you said, however here in the Elite Dangerous bubble Greedo would have been crying "Griefer" after the event and requesting that Star Wars be changed to consensual death only....

Like I said, Han has suitable reason, and greedo started it anyway. Han could be defined as a griefer if he started shooting random jawas because they were there.

But the murder hobos certainly can't claim any suitable reason. "lulz" is hardly a suitable reason. Powerplay would be suitable, piracy would be suitable, bounty hunting (if player on player bounty hunting were a thing in this game) would be suitable. Killing a noob just because you can isn't suitable. Killing an exploration ship just because you can isn't suitable. And the major issue with this game thus far is the lack of consequences for these actions. Do you object to the idea of being accountable for your (mis)deeds? Supposedly, there is a change coming in 2.4, I doubt it will be anywhere near comprehensive enough though. I expect it will fail to handle station ramming.

I don't have an issue with PvP as long as there is a suitable reason, and that kind of play should be rewarded. I take issue with the random violence that happens because of a lack of consequences to discourage it. I freely admit to not caring for PvP in the slightest.

The usual definition of griefing started in Minecraft: Griefing is the act of irritating and angering people in video games through the use of destruction, construction, or social engineering.

This is the most widely accepted definition for the term that I have found. So that is the definition I use, as it also just makes sense.

Harassment is the one that requires repeated behavior. Griefing can turn into harassment with ease.

Exploits is using game vulnerabilities to gain an advantage or to avoid a disadvantage. CLogging is the typical exploit seen in ED.

Cheating and hacking require 3rd party software (most of the time) to change game functionality. Aimbots would be and example of this.

The terminology is distinct for a reason.

Not confused, just looking at this from a different viewpoint. And that is the fundamental issue with these discussions. Different people think differently. IMO, the best thing FDev can do is to implement inescapable consequences for these actions, with exceptions for powerplay, bounty hunting, and piracy (as real piracy in this game doesn't result in ship destruction). Duels can still happen by just having both people turn report crimes off. This still leaves the issue of the victim still paying a higher price than the perpetrator in most cases, but at least the gap would decrease.

 

[Zambrick]

Yeah its being closed for PVPers. But PVErs still get away with it. Go figure

Everything else, I agree with. And even the bad guys want it. They want the punishments. But they should also be rewarded for being a bad guy too. Bad rep means more reward from an anarchy system or whatever. Being a good guy hunting down the bad guy, reward them too. And the bad guy gets a nasty rebuy.

Exactly. Bad Rap means more access to guns, specialized equipment and other perks. If you cant measure the "Badness" aka Karma, then how can you reward or punish anyone for anything. Since there is no consequences let alone a benefit to killing any one in ED (At this current time) then its griefing when done out of malice or for the sick kicks.


In the future when you do those things, it will be both a risk and or benefit to you. Then we are all cool in the school. Being a Pirate can have its benefits, but it also has to have risk. Right now Pirates have no in game benefits and no risk. So thats why I think its of little value and really does nothing but slow down the introduction of new things to do.

That is what I am angry about. I dont care if you get your kicks blowing me or anyone else up for any reason. However what makes me angry about it is the simple fact that because people continue to do that, FDEV have had to spend the better part of 2 years curbing a problem that should have never existed. It has slowed down Development time considerably and the longer a game is in development with no progress, then the worse it will be. (See Duke Nukem Forever, Spore, and L.A. Noire as the latest examples I can recall.)

 

[PeLucheuh]

I have seen those posts before. The difference between those ideas and the current ideology is the open ended aspect that their could be consequences for the play style. Since launch there havent been any consequences. At least no appreciable consequences.

Same goes for the reward.

The Sidewinder Suicide an PF bounty loop hole is just now being closed after 3 years. However that is supposed to be the bare minimum punishment for being a criminal in the game. If you ask me its awfully generous at that.

Yeah and the cool thing is it will be fixed for everyone....... oh wait.... only for a minority of player who mostly don't use it. Apparently it is OK for FDev that PvE can use exploit.

Now when the full C&P and Karma system is in place and people have to finally take the same risks that traders and newbies have been taking since launch in open, then some of the things I listed can fall off. For example the station ramming, mining, and killing of well outclassed or new pilots will still stay. Killing of tradeships, CG opposing, and whatnot can be dropped off the list.

We are already all equally taking the same risk of being blown in Open. The difference is smart players use defences (also equally available to everyone) and don't complain for being blown because it is a multiplayer game core design.

That is because committing Capital Crimes in the future of the game will have to mean something. If they take the powder puff approach and not actually provide a capital punishment for a capital crime, then they may as well not do it all and turn PVP off all together. I imagine that wont be the case however as the potential for real PVP is great. The current open game contains Zero player interaction combat PVP of merit. The closest thing to Combat or violent PVP in Open right now is Power Play. Even that is debatable at times. Mostly because Power Play isnt a fully realize aspect of the game.

Most of PvPers are for more structured PvP with consequences and rewards opportunities. About PowerPlay ? It is not compatible with the 4 years old game design and will not provide incentive PvP.

So in the future of the game you can be as dirty as you want to be, but just know that it will come at an extremely harsh and unavoidable cost. Just like the pilots who fly CG Cargo missions in Open. Just like the explorers coming back from beagle point with no weapons and no cargo who are blown up for the lulz. If you cant accept that there must and will be harsh consequences, then you really do not want PVP. You want seal clubbing. Open "PVP" is a complete and utter joke. Anyone who participates in anything other than arranged dueling and Power Play in open are a complete joke. I have as of yet to been interdicted by a competent let alone real pirate in this game. Most roll up in an FDL and tell you to empty your hold. They dont have hatchbreaks let alone a single slot of cargo space. They are clown shoes.

The joke is PvP activities being the end game of Elite Dangerous (all the tedious and boring PvE grinding has to be done for PvP) and is still meaningless.

The best thing you can do is try and shape it into something fair, fun, and balanced. It would be a better use of your time than defending the current state of EDs supposed PVP. Eve is over a decade old and their PVP destroys EDs in every aspect. Too bad the rest of Eve didnt suck.

EvE game mechanics being a decade old are way better than Elite and we are actualy giving a lot of suggestion to FDev for meaningful PvP activities.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Exactly. Bad Rap means more access to guns, specialized equipment and other perks. If you cant measure the "Badness" aka Karma, then how can you reward or punish anyone for anything. Since there is no consequences let alone a benefit to killing any one in ED (At this current time) then its griefing when done out of malice or for the sick kicks.


In the future when you do those things, it will be both a risk and or benefit to you. Then we are all cool in the school. Being a Pirate can have its benefits, but it also has to have risk. Right now Pirates have no in game benefits and no risk. So thats why I think its of little value and really does nothing but slow down the introduction of new things to do.

That is what I am angry about. I dont care if you get your kicks blowing me or anyone else up for any reason. However what makes me angry about it is the simple fact that because people continue to do that, FDEV have had to spend the better part of 2 years curbing a problem that should have never existed. It has slowed down Development time considerably and the longer a game is in development with no progress, then the worse it will be. (See Duke Nukem Forever, Spore, and L.A. Noire as the latest examples I can recall.)

YAY! meeting in the middle is a wonderful thing!

So right now, people still want to be bad guys. And its all weve got. Which is why PVP against other PVPers is a thing. When it shouldn't be.

You and I are both looking for the same thing. Context. Without it people feel griefed.

Which is why people are pushing for PVP activities to be in open play only. IE powerplay and player factions. And again, its the reason Hotel California exists.

In the kickstarter days, powerplay and player factions did not exist. So it wasn't ever an issue. But since then the games evolved. And we have to evolve with it.

People will still be able to take part in some of the BGS, just like was advertised. But if people leave open and go out of their way to click a button on a 3rd party website to join something like mobius. Then they shouldnt be able to do PVP activities from within it. Even though its PVE, its PVE with intent to effect others. Which is in the end PVP.

This way no one feels griefed. There are punishments and rewards for activities. And people still have the option to enjoy the PVE part of the game anytime they would like.

The only people I see against this. Are the people that left open, and use the private group to effect others intentionally. And I feel thats pretty unbalanced. When most of the people in private groups dont do this. They left open so they wouldnt be effected by others in the first place.

And since people use the term "griefer" loosely it pretty much boils down to X player effecting y player.

And I think we can all see people "griefing" with UA bombs in private and solo. With no guns attached what so ever. Thats the biggest form of PVP in this game. Because it doesnt just effect 1 person. It effects everyone playing this game in the world including Xbox and ps4 players. Give people the chance to defend against it. Or defend their turf against people attacking ships and BOOM.

Meaningful PVP. And no one feels griefed any more.

 

[Zambrick]

Same goes for the reward.


Yeah and the cool thing is it will be fixed for everyone....... oh wait.... only for a minority of player who mostly don't use it. Apparently it is OK for FDev that PvE can use exploit.


We are already all equally taking the same risk of being blown in Open. The difference is smart players use defences (also equally available to everyone) and don't complain for being blown because it is a multiplayer game core design.



Most of PvPers are for more structured PvP with consequences and rewards opportunities. About PowerPlay ? It is not compatible with the 4 years old game design and will not provide incentive PvP.



The joke is PvP activities being the end game of Elite Dangerous (all the tedious and boring PvE grinding has to be done for PvP) and is still meaningless.


EvE game mechanics being a decade old are way better than Elite and we are actualy giving a lot of suggestion to FDev for meaningful PvP activities.

Yea PVP is fun in Eve, but I hate the fact that to support that PVP real world money is spent on ships and the entire economy is propped up by Macro based Bots mining resources while you watch TV, or go to bed, or go to work, or do anything other than actually play the game.

As for the smart players using defenses. That only goes so far. For example an FDL versus and Eagle. There is no defense to be had. Same thing with clippers versus t-6s and T-9s. You can either carry cargo in those ships or you make them safe, you cant do both. T-7s the superior of that line. You can make one boost very quickly and surprise the crap out of someone. At least it has that going for it. Plus it looks cool.

Not all ships in the game are combat oriented ships and the differences are huge. Take the T9. You can juice it up and have no room for cargo and it will still lose the fight, Or you can run it with no defenses and still not win the fight. Either or its the same outcome. Your only hope against anything bigger than a Viper is to run. Seeing as how at best the T9 has the the boost capability of a dead moose I dont see that as happening either. When their is no positive outcome for flying a ship you like, then when someone blows it up for no possible gain on their part, its a problem. Its the players problem because they didnt have to blow them up and its FDEVs problem because they really havent thought out ship roles very well. Its not a matter of being smart or not.

 

[Zambrick]

YAY! meeting in the middle is a wonderful thing!

So right now, people still want to be bad guys. And its all weve got. Which is why PVP against other PVPers is a thing. When it shouldn't be.

You and I are both looking for the same thing. Context. Without it people feel griefed.

Which is why people are pushing for PVP activities to be in open play only. IE powerplay and player factions. And again, its the reason Hotel California exists.

In the kickstarter days, powerplay and player factions did not exist. So it wasn't ever an issue. But since then the games evolved. And we have to evolve with it.

People will still be able to take part in some of the BGS, just like was advertised. But if people leave open and go out of their way to click a button on a 3rd party website to join something like mobius. Then they shouldnt be able to do PVP activities from within it. Even though its PVE, its PVE with intent to effect others. Which is in the end PVP.

This way no one feels griefed. There are punishments and rewards for activities. And people still have the option to enjoy the PVE part of the game anytime they would like.

The only people I see against this. Are the people that left open, and use the private group to effect others intentionally. And I feel thats pretty unbalanced. When most of the people in private groups dont do this. They left open so they wouldnt be effected by others in the first place.

And since people use the term "griefer" loosely it pretty much boils down to X player effecting y player.

And I think we can all see people "griefing" with UA bombs in private and solo. With no guns attached what so ever. Thats the biggest form of PVP in this game. Because it doesnt just effect 1 person. It effects everyone playing this game in the world including Xbox and ps4 players. Give people the chance to defend against it. Or defend their turf against people attacking ships and BOOM.

Meaningful PVP. And no one feels griefed any more.

To fix that in powerplay I would make any and all combat oriented powerplay done in Open only. The trading and vouchers system can be done in any mode, because there are people who literally play this game as a trading sim. Making your power play patron rich also makes you rich. So cant take that away. But for combat oriented powerplay I see no problem it being open only. But then again I was never a real big fan of the current powerplay and I dont have much invested in it. FDEV need to go back to the drawing board completely on it.

And yes, Outside of anything other than arranged duels and Power Play everyone knows that the "PVP" doesnt have meaning or risk. Once they add meaning and risk to poweplay you will find that you have far less people call foul. In fact you might find more people to PVP with.

The word "meaning" is what is lacking in over 95% of player combat in ED right now. Exacerbating the problem and slowing down development doesnt fix the lack of meaning in the combat. That is why people like myself and others dont like what people call griefers. In any other game they would be legit. Not in ED though. At launch people were handed a sharp stick in ED. They werent told how to use it, where to use it, if they could use it, should they use it. They were told and given nothing. Thats fine, accept that no matter how you use said stick only one way makes you successful in the sandbox. The only way to get money with the stick is to kill NPCS. Everyone who plays the game knows this, Hence the animosity.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

To fix that in powerplay I would make any and all combat oriented powerplay done in Open only. The trading and vouchers system can be done in any mode, because there are people who literally play this game as a trading sim. Making your power play patron rich also makes you rich. So cant take that away. But for combat oriented powerplay I see no problem it being open only. But then again I was never a real big fan of the current powerplay and I dont have much invested in it. FDEV need to go back to the drawing board completely on it.

And yes, Outside of anything other than arranged duels and Power Play everyone knows that the "PVP" doesnt have meaning or risk. Once they add meaning and risk to poweplay you will find that you have far less people call foul. In fact you might find more people to PVP with.

The word "meaning" is what is lacking in over 95% of player combat in ED right now. Exacerbating the problem and slowing down development doesnt fix the lack of meaning in the combat. That is why people like myself and others dont like what people call griefers. In any other game they would be legit. Not in ED though. At launch people were handed a sharp stick in ED. They werent told how to use it, where to use it, if they could use it, should they use it. They were told and given nothing. Thats fine, accept that no matter how you use said stick only one way makes you successful in the sandbox. The only way to get money with the stick is to kill NPCS. Everyone who plays the game knows this, Hence the animosity.

The only problem is. Those traders are involved in the same end result people with weapons are. Traders should susceptible to the same risks if they are working for their faction. Otherwise, No point. I can go into solo and private and win the war just the same as we can now. Which is a major flaw.

 

[Viper2kUK]

I'm going to say something from my point of view. I play in open, always have and I know the risks. If I get my backside kicked because some hulking big ship or smarter player gets the best of me, then so be it. Whether its pp, pvp, or tiddly winks, you go into open you're just another potential conquest and a learning curve.

My basic view is probably very nieve to a majority of you folks who've been playing since elite was just a 1 in the horizon but the fact from my point of view is this, if someone starts shooting at you, shoot back and hope that you can survive, if not then learn (and this is where I think the engineers element helps) if you got some help on your side with your kit and ship, then maybe you survive longer and possibly gain a few points on your scorecard.

For all the tangents and additions that elite and the developers have added and will continue to add - in a nutshell, everyone is in a ship, on there own, trying to survive as best they can.

V2k.

 

[Kaltern]

So.. after reading a few more pages of this epic discussion.. I think it's safe to come to the following conclusion.

If it's possible in the game.. then those who do it don't consider it griefing. Those it's done to, do. And those who are not involved just pick a side and join in the argument

The very fact it's possible in the game AND there is absolutely no consequences for doing it, means that those who DO do it feel they are doing nothing wrong. Morally, of course they are - but in a game without rules, morals and principles go out the airlock.

This argument can never be won by either side. The only ones who can sort it are FDev, and these mythical updates that will come. Some day.

Right now.. the best advice really is, if you don't want to be involved in PvP in any capacity.. stay out of Open. Until FDev start to fix things.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

So.. after reading a few more pages of this epic discussion.. I think it's safe to come to the following conclusion.

If it's possible in the game.. then those who do it don't consider it griefing. Those it's done to, do. And those who are not involved just pick a side and join in the argument

The very fact it's possible in the game AND there is absolutely no consequences for doing it, means that those who DO do it feel they are doing nothing wrong. Morally, of course they are - but in a game without rules, morals and principles go out the airlock.

This argument can never be won by either side. The only ones who can sort it are FDev, and these mythical updates that will come. Some day.

Right now.. the best advice really is, if you don't want to be involved in PvP in any capacity.. stay out of Open. Until FDev start to fix things.

100% agreed. Fdev has to speak up. Or we will fight with each other forever.

Address it and put everyone on the same page.

Once again, Linking the TOS. Does not help things because its been there since the beginning. Hell even fight against or for salmoe still did not help.

 

[Kaltern]

I truly think that we need a 'special' DDF topic, open to all, about this specific subject. There's a lot of ideas, a lot of bi*ching and too many ego's getting involved in random discussions.

I suggest We have a separate forum section, dedicated to hammering out the C&P system, with various topics of discussion, like we see in the Beta section. Moderators have more leeway to control out of hand arguments perhaps, one strike and you're banned from that section, etc.. just to keep the conversations flowing without the usual attitudes.

It's pretty much one of the most important things that needs to be addressed in the game.. we should ALL be given the opportunity to get it right - and FDev should come out of their hidey-holes and join in, give us the chance to properly give feedback and ideas, and not just let us hope they do what works.

 

[PeLucheuh]

Yea PVP is fun in Eve, but I hate the fact that to support that PVP real world money is spent on ships and the entire economy is propped up by Macro based Bots mining resources while you watch TV, or go to bed, or go to work, or do anything other than actually play the game.

As for the smart players using defenses. That only goes so far. For example an FDL versus and Eagle. There is no defense to be had. Same thing with clippers versus t-6s and T-9s. You can either carry cargo in those ships or you make them safe, you cant do both. T-7s the superior of that line. You can make one boost very quickly and surprise the crap out of someone. At least it has that going for it. Plus it looks cool.

Not all ships in the game are combat oriented ships and the differences are huge. Take the T9. You can juice it up and have no room for cargo and it will still lose the fight, Or you can run it with no defenses and still not win the fight. Either or its the same outcome. Your only hope against anything bigger than a Viper is to run. Seeing as how at best the T9 has the the boost capability of a dead moose I dont see that as happening either. When their is no positive outcome for flying a ship you like, then when someone blows it up for no possible gain on their part, its a problem. Its the players problem because they didnt have to blow them up and its FDEVs problem because they really havent thought out ship roles very well. Its not a matter of being smart or not.

Defenses are never useless. If people get killed in their greedy loadout it is none of my problem or FDev problem because with a proper loadout matching a cutthroat galaxy context : You can't get destroyed in this game.
There are some traders at CG in Open that are impossible to gank (i tried) because they are using a smart loadout. Yes you loose Cr/hour but you are safe from the rebuy screen.
Like you said : "Not all ships in the game are combat oriented ships". And yet people still assume they can fight with trade/explo ship. No you can't fight but you can survive with proper defences and run away really easy.

 

[DukeIronHand]

People will still be able to take part in some of the BGS, just like was advertised. But if people leave open and go out of their way to click a button on a 3rd party website to join something like mobius. Then they shouldnt be able to do PVP activities from within it. Even though its PVE, its PVE with intent to effect others. Which is in the end PVP.

The only people I see against this. Are the people that left open, and use the private group to effect others intentionally. And I feel thats pretty unbalanced. When most of the people in private groups dont do this. They left open so they wouldnt be effected by others in the first place.

Hopefully I am misunderstanding your little PvP dream here.
So people who don't wish to put up with the nonsense and "unreality" of the Open environment should be allowed to do what exactly in the game world?

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I truly think that we need a 'special' DDF topic, open to all, about this specific subject. There's a lot of ideas, a lot of bi*ching and too many ego's getting involved in random discussions.

I suggest We have a separate forum section, dedicated to hammering out the C&P system, with various topics of discussion, like we see in the Beta section. Moderators have more leeway to control out of hand arguments perhaps, one strike and you're banned from that section, etc.. just to keep the conversations flowing without the usual attitudes.

It's pretty much one of the most important things that needs to be addressed in the game.. we should ALL be given the opportunity to get it right - and FDev should come out of their hidey-holes and join in, give us the chance to properly give feedback and ideas, and not just let us hope they do what works.

It would just end up like hotel california. IGNORED for years on end without anyone speaking up about it unfortantly.

 

[Kaltern]

It would just end up like hotel california. IGNORED for years on end without anyone speaking up about it unfortantly.

Not if it was properly endorsed, and moderated by FDev. The problem with the 'other' thread, is it's just basically a slagging match, with little meaningful discussion. If there was a properly structured forum section, with various topics of discussion, and slightly less tolerant moderation - AND input from FDev, and (no disrespect here to you folks) Not just Dale and Sandro, but other devs who directly code this stuff. Of course, they can't, and shouldn't be there all the time - however, I'm pretty sure they could spend 30 mins every other day or something reading and writing responses, and then during their staff meetings, this stuff can be discussed.

FDev are still far too closed about the decisions they make. While we don't really need to be involved in many of them.. I think C&P we should have an active role in at least working to removing the extremes of the ideas, and letting FDev see what we really want, on both sides.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Hopefully I am misunderstanding your little PvP dream here.
So people who don't wish to put up with the nonsense and "unreality" of the Open environment should be allowed to do what exactly in the game world?

Anything and everything else not effecting player groups or powerplay.

Once again, if people left Open and joined a group like Mobius for PVE content only. Then they shouldnt be able to effect others through PVE content.

When the game first started, Powerplay and Player factions did not exist. And it was not an issue at that time.

Now that we have those things. People can attack Player factions ships and fight over territory using the BGS with no risk to them. But they left Open so they couldnt be effected or "griefed". But they have no problems effecting others and claiming its PVE content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3jCC13prXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnYXTh4TCVo <~ THIS PROVES THE WHOLE POINT. Hes PVEing with intent to effect another player faction. End of story. Its PVP by proxy.

But its the bigger picture. Its why Powerplay is in the dumps. And the reason we dont have "meaningful pvp". We either have 1v1's or traders crying because they got shot at.

 

[Jockey79]

Now that we have those things. People can attack Player factions ships and fight over territory using the BGS with no risk to them.

And people can defend using the same methods, that's called "equality" - ain't it grand